SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Doc

Are you a whore?

Do you think so? If you asked your wife that, what would she say.

You’ve spent pages here telling us that for years you were submissive to her. Getting her off without her getting you off. You did things to pleasure her, we’re vulnerable to her, then used that as impetus for getting yourself off. She did nothing to help you achieve that pleasure. She let you find that for yourself.

So did you consider yourself a whore? Did she consider you a whore? If not, how did she feel about you for doing those things without promise of anything in return.

In a healthy relationship spouses will do things they know will bring pleasure to their partner, BECAUSE THEY LOVE THEM. Even if it means they have to be open and raw and feel slightly exposed. That is one of the many things that love is truly about.

It’s only when you do such things in betrayal of your partner that they are dirty.

The next time she says that what you are asking for makes her feel like a whore, ask her what she thinks about you, and if you are a whore for what you agreed to do for her. Her answer could be illuminating for both of you.

To clarify, I would usually get off, but her pleasure was typically the priority.

And we've discussed this numerous times recently. She thinks I am a whore lol--but as mentioned a long time ago, when this came up in MC, both her and the MC pointed out the negative connotation of the word "whore" for women--so to her, it's worse to be sexually available as a woman than as a man. I have no intention of re-doing that debate in this thread as it doesn't matter, but ultimately my wife recognizes I think about sex differently than her. She wants to think like me, but doesn't. She has been making an effort to change though.

Okay, so let me get this straight.

So first, I scratched my head at your post. She doesn’t have a drinking problem and you don’t care if she reads what you write.

My knee jerk reaction is maybe these are things to put to bed on reporting on because it confuses your audience on the issues you do need support on.

Then I realized no, here is the issue - you want to see 100 percent effort on her working fully in her mental health. So I think it bothers you when you interpret her to not be giving it her all.

But, I think you are underestimating what bigger issues there are and those are things she is doing in IC. I think part of your detachment has to be if it doesn’t effect you then leave it alone.

Your wife is doing therapy 3 times a week, going to marriage counseling, reading,apparently having sex with you, out and buying you gifts. She also works, parents and is involved
in your childrens school. She is being honest and transparent.

Keep in mind I know none of that fixes this for you. It doesn’t fix it for anyone. She is going to have to get very consistent for a long time before it even makes a dent. But, I think it’s safe to say she is doing what she can handle.l by your reports That’s why I think this extraneous stuff just needs to fall off the report card so to speak.

This doesn’t seem like an undisciplined woman doing these things. Detachment of where she is in the process would be very healthy for you because no matter what she is doing I think you are going to focus on any evidence that she is not meeting standards on. And that is completely normal and part of the effects of losing all your security. I think most bs go through that. But it’s kind of mental torture. She is going to do what she is going to do and all you can do is decide your reaction to it.

As for agreeing to things with the marriage counselor, she is trying to get an A in MC. I did the same thing. We stopped MC for a while when that was happening until I could get to a better point through IC. But that’s up to you I am not sure how it’s going. MC for me is fixing the marriage, we are still at the fixing ourselves stage? Do what you wish with that but I know I am not alone on this site of having felt they wasted Money in MC before it was time to work on reconciliation. Others found it was needed just to keep the communication productive so it’s whatever works for you.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:30 AM, Thursday, June 23rd]

This couple is in Limbo. He spent 50 pages on his first thread hyper analyzing his wife and trying to help things along.

It’s her turn to take the reins to the best of her ability. Which from our source of information... Dr....she is doing in fits and starts.

Right now, he needs to watch her actions, not be the source of validation or critical feedback.

Dang it... hit post too soon.

Cats out of the bag. She can read his posts if she wants to. He can’t control it, so why not let go of the outcome and continue to use it as a source of support and feedback..... for himself.

I feel like it took a long time to turn the boat and here we are still talking about WW. She may be trying to the best of her ability, that’s fine. He’s committed to giving her time. How about a little something for WW effort and busy life? The coin flips both ways. Effort reaps it’s own rewards with outcomes. If they work on it it will become easier to acknowledge over time.

Dr. Needs to focus on himself and his healing and self work now.

And I can’t help but to add.... to ask a BS to recognize the efforts of his WW at school, when she used that shared ground to poison lifetime memories and events is a big ask.

I do apologize for the school thing, I didn’t realize the details were that. I didn’t say that maliciously. I do not go into the just found out forum, and can’t post there as a ws.

As for the rest, I agree with you but felt that’s what I was saying. To detach from where she is in the process, to focus on what he needs. I only wrote out that list to challenge whether or not she is being more disciplined than what it was sounding when we are focused on two things she is doing badly am but he claims he doesn’t care about those items. It would be easier for him if he could see that he doesn’t need to manage her. I was trying to say look she is doing it right now you can let go, but maybe it came off as praise. That was not my intention.

I also recommended to drop MC for the same reason. How can you be detached and go through MC? So I feel we are encouraging the same thing but maybe I made my points weakly.

However I do think it is natural right now that he is trying to understand her mind. There are many BS’s who struggle with mindset of their ws for way longer than he has been here. At four months out that’s still the shock phase. At the same time, I do agree the sooner he can focus more on himself the better but it’s so hard to be that disciplined about it four months out. As you know ws behavior is confusing, frustrating, and it takes some practice to tune out what they are doing. We were in limbo most of the first year and I can’t say we ever got great at some of the things we are encouraging.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:36 AM, Thursday, June 23rd]

both her and the MC pointed out the negative connotation of the word "whore" for women

Yes of course I agree. But instead substitute a bad connotation word for a man, especially one who has been submissive. A wuss? Pussy? Cuck?

Does she think you are that? Or were you just a man who wanted to please his wife? Did she, does she, think badly of you for doing that? And it’s not as though you are denying her pleasure now to ensure only yours. I am assuming she achieves orgasm one way or another in your sexual relations since DDay.

Honestly while my previous post was a bit flip, I am being serious here. Yes I agree, no emotional talks for a while. But someday you’re going to have to work thru this if you stay together. And I was just wondering if she feels like a whore when doing things for her husband, does she think her husband are any of those names i Used above for a man who pleasures his wife as a service. I don’t think she’d say she’d think badly of you for doing that.

Intimacy is what marriage is about. It’s not dirty. Dirty is giving it away to a virtual stranger. That’s goes for both of you. Each intimate act is special between those who are in love and took vows. Even if they are risqué or over the top.

She needs to learn that and I think getting her to honestly say what she thinks of you when performing certain acts which can be considered subservient might help with that conversation.

I’ll leave it at that for now and wont bring it up again unless you have specific questions.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:11 PM, Thursday, June 23rd]

Does she think you are that? Or were you just a man who wanted to please his wife? Did she, does she, think badly of you for doing that?

Yes, we discussed this about two months ago and I asked her those questions. She responded by saying she thought of me as a "doormat" in bed. It was confusing to her as I’m very much not a doormat in life, so she didn’t understand why I was doing that.

I pressed and she admitted that my behavior had something to do with the affair—she wanted a more dominant man in bed. She felt her libido disappeared in our bedroom.

To her, the idea of me pleasing her because I wanted her to be happy didn’t make sense—sex was a battleground for her where both people are trying to get off. If she doesn’t get off and the other person does, it means she lost—and she is resentful of losing. She is actively trying to erase that mindset now.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:45 PM, Thursday, June 23rd]

I feel like it took a long time to turn the boat and here we are still talking about WW.

You’re right; and it’s probably unavoidable as her behavior routinely shocks me still—but on the whole, her behavior has improved over the three months since DDay and my interest in her behavior has decreased. So it’s progress.

To her, the idea of me pleasing her because I wanted her to be happy didn’t make sense—sex was a battleground for her where both people are trying to get off. If she doesn’t get off and the other person does, it means she lost—and she is resentful of losing. She is actively trying to erase that mindset now.

That seems quite a bizarre and incredibly self-centred mindset. It's great that she's now trying to erase it but I wonder where it came from in the first place? Does she award herself a gold medal if she comes first?

I also recommended to drop MC for the same reason. How can you be detached and go through MC?

I’m not thrilled about the helpfulness of MC now. I brought this up at the last session and made it clear the priority for me and my WW is IC—so we would only be going to MC when we could schedule her two IC’s and my one IC and still be available for another session in the same week.

The MC agreed. We skipped MC this week due to my wife traveling and won’t be going again until next Friday.

I don’t think MC is too harmful, but as you suggest, my wife is going in the hopes of performing well—she wants an A from the teacher. And she never gets one.

That seems quite a bizarre and incredibly self-centred mindset. It's great that she's now trying to erase it but I wonder where it came from in the first place? Does she award herself a gold medal if she comes first?

She is both bizarre and self-centered; but she recognizes it at least.

She never made her feelings on this clear during our M, but in all our in-depth talks post DDay, her mindset is exposed.

As for where it came from: she was used for sex her entire life, including by me in the early days of our relationship (we were fuck buddies in college). So for her, she was never promised anything more than the current sexual experience—so if she didn’t enjoy it, she wasted her time.

When our relationship became exclusive and even when we married, her mindset appears to not have changed. It was always transactional—even with me. It was also always mechanical—even with me.

The first time she felt deeply connected to someone during sex appears to be the sex we had following DDay. She never experienced a connection like that before, which was horribly shocking for me to hear.

FWIW, what you describe of your wife's relationship with alcohol does very much sound like an alcoholic. It matches up with her extreme immaturity and self centeredness also, which is very typical. Many alcoholics can't figure out what is wrong with them or if they are a narcissist or have another personality disorder before they address the addiction. She may instead have an actual personality disorder based on what you've shared. None of us here or even you can know but it is something she should be addressing in her counseling or psych appointments.

It isn't at the top of your list of priorities now and I get that. But it should be a big deal to her to explore and learn about because if she does have an addiction issue, it doesn't just go away and it will impede any sort of progress or recovery. A dry drunk is still functioning like an alcoholic.

FWIW, what you describe of your wife's relationship with alcohol does very much sound like an alcoholic. It matches up with her extreme immaturity and self centeredness also, which is very typical. Many alcoholics can't figure out what is wrong with them or if they are a narcissist or have another personality disorder before they address the addiction. She may instead have an actual personality disorder based on what you've shared. None of us here or even you can know but it is something she should be addressing in her counseling or psych appointments.

It isn't at the top of your list of priorities now and I get that. But it should be a big deal to her to explore and learn about because if she does have an addiction issue, it doesn't just go away and it will impede any sort of progress or recovery. A dry drunk is still functioning like an alcoholic.

Our differences on this topic may be semantical--I think I largely agree with you. I'm viewing alcohol, along with her other vices, as a symptom of deeper issues. Can that be true and she still be an alcoholic? Perhaps.

The larger point is I recognize I can't help her with any of it, regardless of what it is. My help feeds into the parent-child dynamic she has between us--I can't lead her to revelations about herself or logical directions for her behavior.

I also can't relate to her impulsiveness and lack of agency.

I view all of this as analogous to me telling her I'm going to give up ice cream for a week and then making myself a giant sundae the following day right in front of her. I don't understand it--if I agree to something, I do it. And perhaps sometimes it's not always for a healthy reason; I'll just do it because I agreed to it, even if I don't think it's the right thing to do.

But for her, she can know something is "right" (not drinking; not viewing my thread); she can agree to no not doing it; then in a matter of hours she can do both the wrong thing *and* break the agreement.

I don't know what that is. It seems totally reckless and crazy.

Doc, what are things that you can do to help yourself work through this trauma that aren't contingent on her doing or not doing something? Do you have any personal goals that you would like to work towards?

Also, you balked at the idea of enforcing consequences, as you said they wouldn't work and you don't want to be her "jailer." But what are some boundaries that you can set that aren't reliant on her to do or not do anything? What other observable consequences can you impose other than divorce?

For example, if you know now that she can't be trusted to stay off your threads, and that you will be subjected to her shame-spiral every time she lurks on here, changing your username makes it more difficult for her to violate that boundary. If you don't want to do that, or she manages to hunt down your threads anyway, a consequence for violating that boundary could simply mean that you shut down any conversation that involves SI, even removing yourself from her presence, if necessary.

I also think that dropping MC is actually an appropriate consequence because it sends a clear message to your wife that you are no longer willing to invest time and money into rebuilding your marriage, given that she hasn't made any good-faith efforts to do the necessary work. Naturally, you can leave the door open to resuming MC if you start to see some meaningful changes on her part.

These are just a couple suggestions, but they aren't exhaustive. My point is that you have dozens of options a part from suffering in limbo or filing for divorce.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:48 PM, Thursday, June 23rd]

Doc, what are things that you can do to help yourself work through this trauma that aren't contingent on her doing or not doing something? Do you have any personal goals that you would like to work towards?

Also, you balked at the idea of enforcing consequences, as you said they wouldn't work and you don't want to be her "jailer." But what are some boundaries that you can set that aren't reliant on her to do or not do anything? What other observable consequences can you impose other than divorce?

For example, if you know now that she can't be trusted to stay off your threads, and that you will be subjected to her shame-spiral every time she lurks on here, changing your username makes it more difficult for her to violate that boundary. If you don't want to do that, or she manages to hunt down your threads anyway, a consequence for violating that boundary could simply mean that you shut down any conversation that involves SI, even removing yourself from her presence, if necessary.

I also think that dropping MC is actually an appropriate consequence because it sends a clear message to your wife that you are no longer willing to invest time and money into rebuilding your marriage, given that she hasn't made any good-faith efforts to do the necessary work. Naturally, you can leave the door open to resuming MC if you start to see some meaningful changes on her part.

These are just a couple suggestions, but they aren't exhaustive. My point is that you have dozens of options a part from suffering in limbo or filing for divorce.

I dislike the idea of changing my username because if she really wants to find my posts, it won't be hard to figure out who I am. And more importantly, it's just not how I am--I want to be transparent. I'm not going to change my behavior, in what I view as a negative/deceptive way, for her.

Your suggestion of stopping MC is very much on my mind though--I chose not to write it here as I assume she'll see it and with her traveling, I wanted to be the one to bring the topic to her in person--but she's back tonight. And that's the problem I addressed a few posts back: if I establish a defined consequence, then she'll stop being truthful with me to protect herself--at least I think she will.

Right now, she can fuck up and tell me because there are seemingly no consequences. And as HikingOut has pointed out, the things she has fucked up recently aren't very significant to me anyway. I'd much rather keep the open communication going than be punitive and force her into a shell.

I do think stopping MC is a logical step potentially though--not as a punishment, just as an acknowledgment that as long as she cannot stop agreeing to things she doesn't agree with, we cannot work on the marriage.

**

As for my immediate personal goals, I'd put them in three categories now:

1. Heal from the trauma of the affair: I feel like I've made progress on this as I've forgiven the sexual/physical acts already and I've also made strides to forgive the badmouthing. I am pretty far away still on everything else involved in the betrayal and still don't see a path to forgiveness on much of it.

2. Understand what I want in my future: Is my wife the partner I want? I already know what I'd like to see her change for me to reconcile, but I want to explore if she can be my future even with those changes. I dug in a bit on this in IC today and feel like I understand why she became my partner and why we stayed together, but now post-DDay, I need to take the time to reexamine my life, my happiness, and my longterm goals in life.

3. My sexual history and future: It's complicated, as many of you know, and I need to keep exploring it. I recognize that my kinks are a part of me and I need to find healthy outlets for them. Interestingly, while discussing this topic in IC today, she thought it was a *positive* thing that I was able to find the sexual aspect of my WW's affair as erotic now instead of painful.

I challenged that a bit as it didn't feel very healthy. Her point, I think, was that healing from the trauma is the priority and while my path to healing may feel strange, it is a means to an end. I'm not quite sure what to do with it yet, but it is what it is, so fighting my emotional response probably isn't healthy either.

Your suggestion of stopping MC is very much on my mind though--I chose not to write it here as I assume she'll see it and with her traveling, I wanted to be the one to bring the topic to her in person--but she's back tonight. And that's the problem I addressed a few posts back: if I establish a defined consequence, then she'll stop being truthful with me to protect herself--at least I think she will.

Stopping MC is an excellent idea and I don't see it as a consequence - maybe a reality check?

If she lies to protect herself from consequences, she will absolutely put the nail on the coffin of your marriage anyway so why drag it out? Find out now rather than later.

I pressed and she admitted that my behavior had something to do with the affair—she wanted a more dominant man in bed. She felt her libido disappeared in our bedroom.

That's kind of a mainstream kink. There's a reason the Shades of Gray series was so popular with women. Variety is good though.

HikingOut's point is that you are in judging or investigating mode. Letting go of the outcome doesn't just mean doing what's necessary even if it ends your marriage, it means stop focusing on either sucess or failure. Your WW has a long way to go. She's going to fail often along the way. As long as she keeps moving foward towards where she needs to be, for herself and your kids as much as you and your marriage, allow her to celebrate what ever gains she makes as long as she keeps adding to them.

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That's kind of a mainstream kink. There's a reason the Shades of Gray series was so popular with women. Variety is good though.

To be clear, I have no issue with her "kink"--I'm happy to take on the dominant role in bed--the issue is her feeling like my whore when I do. I have explored being more dominant with her plenty of times, but she ends up feeling ashamed of doing "submissive" acts with me (a variety of the Madonna complex). And I agree variety would be the ideal resolution--because it's also clear she likes being in control in bed too at times.

I'm open to all of it, but in practice, she views it as she's either my whore or I'm her doormat. It's exhausting. And she doesn't communicate any of this well--this is just the stuff I was able to pull out of her in the last few months.

allow her to celebrate what ever gains she makes as long as she keeps adding to them.

I agree with you and HikingOut on this and I'm trying to thread that needle: making her feel like she's making progress and not just fucking up every day.

Stopping MC is an excellent idea and I don't see it as a consequence - maybe a reality check?

If she lies to protect herself from consequences, she will absolutely put the nail on the coffin of your marriage anyway so why drag it out? Find out now rather than later.

Sure, but I need to know she's lying. Using her reading my thread a an example, she's told me about reading it under three scenarios:

1. Someone said something mean about her and it hurt her feelings, so she wants me to stop posting.
2. I said something mean about her and she wants me to know she's angry about it.
3. She messed up and read it and wants me to know in the interest of transparency.

If not for that, I'd never know she was reading it--unless I start snooping around on her devices, etc., and I'm not interested in going down that rabbit hole.

So the first two categories--making me aware of her emotional response to reading it--is too absurd for me to logically contemplate. It's an incredible lack of self-preservation. I just can't *rely* on that ever happening again. Which means her transparency is critical in us moving forward--because if she starts being deceptive again, you're right, it'll likely be over, but only once I can uncover it.

Bottom-line, my boundaries are known to her and I need decide what to do during each infraction. Ultimately what has happened is she has continued to push me away--and as another poster pointed out, that's a consequence in of itself.

because if she starts being deceptive again, you're right, it'll likely be over, but only once I can uncover it.

I think you are giving her too much credit and you will figure it out. But it sucks that you already know she will lie, but just not how "big" the lies will be and if they will be dealbreakers.

But like others have said, decide the consequences of breaking your boundaries now, so you don't have to contemplate or argue with yourself about what to do if xyz happens. With a clear head, if *this* boundary is crossed, I will do *that* and stick to it. You don't have to tell her, so it isn't like a threat. Just a way to decide now what you think is best so you are ready if it happens and less likely to make an emotional decision.