SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Secondly, I firmly believe that if everything else in a marriage is wonderful and you love your WW and WW is remorseful and loves you above all, getting a D because she doesn't want to perform a specific sexual act seems over the top and that perhaps a counselor could help the BH examine that and decide if it's really a deal breaker.

What I hope you and others are taking from this thread is that it's not "over the top" for most of us. Not even close. Over the top might be demanding a threesome or something else that's way outside the lines as part of R. But "sexual equality" with the AP; if nothing else is taken from this thread, is really the absolute bare minimum for a lot of posters here (myself included). R is not on the table with it, for me, and I suspect from the posts here, for many/most men. Suggesting a man needs counseling because he finds it important to have better/more intimate/more engaged/more sex with his W after her A, is, frankly, insulting to me. It would be like me suggesting counseling for a woman who wants to have sex more than her husband, completely missing the fact that her husband is having an A and getting his needs met elsewhere, but demanding the wife get help to "deal with" the sexual drought.

This:

How about the WW gets in to the IC to see why it was so easy for her to give away to someone other than her husband as well.

And then stay in IC until she figures out why her H isn't worthy of the same treatment.

And, to a poster who responded after this, yes, I should make that clear. I am in R, and I love my wife dearly. She did things with the OM that were "off the table" for me, which is why this is a sore spot for me (and I suspect many other posters here). But I love her dearly which is the only reason that I am attempting to R; I can see a life without her, but I want our life together much more. But that life together cannot, simply CANNOT happen without sexual parity and eventually sexual things beyond what she did with the AP. It just can't, for me, I will never get past it. But it's because of my situation and how I feel that I post on things like that, because I know there are other WW's out there who love their BH's and are desperate to R, and who's BH is still madly in love with them, but they have this exact issue between them. So much so, that it's almost "defacto" female cheating. I want these women to know, if you want to R, this has to be fixed, and the way to fix it isn't to explain it away, it's not to send the man to years of IC, or go to years of MC. It's to restore the love you have for him in his mind. And for many men, the way that happens is sexually. Like it or not, think it's because we are shallow or cave men.. It just is.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:36 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Never posted here before but I have followed this thread and I have a different perspective from a woman's point of view.

These sex acts that are being discussed ( for me ) require a great amount if TRUST !! Trust in more than one way.

You don't think I am a slut

You won't hurt me

I can stop if I need / want to

You get the picture.

IF. I trusted someone other than my husband, what is he to think? Well, that I don't trust him ? He is MY HUSBAND !!! So then why don't I. ?

Well betrayed wives probably don't so that might be part of the answer due to tge fact that most who are responding are betrayed. I don't see these men As being unreasonable as long as they still treat their wives properly and I believe RIO. And NTV. Have stated they love their wives. They aren't monsters here, they are just men. They don't seem to be insecure, they just seem like men to me.

But if a certain sex act is a deal breaker for R, I think the BH should get into counseling or something to find out if he's putting too much importance on it.

So, let me just step back for a second. We are agreeing that sexual acts offered say something about how a woman feels about a man? And that's a woman's right (which I agree) to feel that way, and should be OK with the man (which I couldn't disagree with more)? But then, we pull that together with a BH should get into counseling if his W won't do it with him? The BH?!? Are you kidding me? What exactly do you say to the psych; "How do I come to terms with the fact that my W doesn't love me"?

Robin, I applaud you for your post, because, you are telling it like it is, and men know it to be true. The willingness of a woman to do sexual things with you, be it kiss you, sleep with you, or have anal sex with you is an excellent measure of how she feels about you, how much she loves you, how much she respects you and admires you. But the BH needs to see a shrink to "get over it" when his wife is telling him, loud and clear, "I loves to POS who I met over drinks one night at a bar and f((ked my a** for an hour straight more than I love you"?

Holy bizzaro world people. Let me state it plainly, it is NOT a BH's "job" to sit in counseling and have someone try to explain to him why it's OK his wife loves someone else more than him. Nope, not even a little bit. It's not his (or her, this can happen in the other direction too!) job to try to figure out why some sex act given to the AP is now "so important" to him. It is the WS's job to fix this or to walk; I'm sorry, I have a lot of sympathy for some waywards, especially wives, but that sympathy does not extend to "make it the husband's problem to figure out why he wants to try anal after she gave it to the AP". That's too far for me, it's not his problem, it's hers; if she's not up for it with her H but was the AP, it pretty much tells a man everything he needs to know about where he stands in his wife's eyes.

You put quite a spin on what I wrote.

I stand by what I said. If everything else in your marriage is wonderful except your WW doesn't want to do one specific act, you do have the right to D her over it. Absolutely. No one ever said you didn't.

But did you ever once stop and wonder why she doesn't want to do that one certain thing? Did you ever think about discussing it with her and finding out the why? Maybe she hated it, maybe she was humiliated, maybe she was tied up, maybe she was drunk, maybe she was on drugs. And maybe none of the above but wouldn't you want to know the why before you draw the line in the sand and start meting out the consequences?

But yes, you have the right to divorce her for any reason you want to. I'm just not sure it's going to bring you the peace you're seeking.

Dragn heart’s post also shows how sex acts given to an AP can and do affect both sexes.

Some women won’t perform certain sex acts anymore because their husband got it from the AP.

While it seems men and women react differently to sexual details, they do, oftentimes, seem to matter to both

May I clarify please.

When I say "the affair isn't about the BS"

I am NOT saying Get Over It!!!

I AM saying that for me at least, my WH affairs weren't a reflection of something I did or didn't do. Its not that I'm a chubby gal, or that I spent alot of time caring for sick children. Its not because I neglected him because I didn't. I made sure to always ask how he felt, had a ton of sex...Moreso then we should have (the day I came home from a c-section probably not a good time to be humping like Bunnies but I did it thinking I was keeping him happy).

His affairs had nothing to do with me. They were all about him, his feeling entitled and wanting to.

Just want to make sure that you guys know I'm not saying get over the actions of your WW. I am saying that.perhaps her actions were a result for only wanting to keep the affair going, fear of if she stopped say anal with ap he would end it and all would come out. Whatever her reason for doing things with her AP isn't a reflection of you in any way.

May I clarify please.

When I say "the affair isn't about the BS"

I am NOT saying Get Over It!!!

I AM saying that for me at least, my WH affairs weren't a reflection of something I did or didn't do. Its not that I'm a chubby gal, or that I spent alot of time caring for sick children. Its not because I neglected him because I didn't. I made sure to always ask how he felt, had a ton of sex...Moreso then we should have (the day I came home from a c-section probably not a good time to be humping like Bunnies but I did it thinking I was keeping him happy).

His affairs had nothing to do with me. They were all about him, his feeling entitled and wanting to.

Just want to make sure that you guys know I'm not saying get over the actions of your WW. I am saying that.perhaps her actions were a result for only wanting to keep the affair going, fear of if she stopped say anal with ap he would end it and all would come out. Whatever her reason for doing things with her AP isn't a reflection of you in any way.

But if a certain sex act is a deal breaker for R, I think the BH should get into counseling or something to find out if he's putting too much importance on it.

So, let me just step back for a second. We are agreeing that sexual acts offered say something about how a woman feels about a man? And that's a woman's right (which I agree) to feel that way, and should be OK with the man (which I couldn't disagree with more)? But then, we pull that together with a BH should get into counseling if his W won't do it with him? The BH?!? Are you kidding me? What exactly do you say to the psych; "How do I come to terms with the fact that my W doesn't love me"?

Robin, I applaud you for your post, because, you are telling it like it is, and men know it to be true. The willingness of a woman to do sexual things with you, be it kiss you, sleep with you, or have anal sex with you is an excellent measure of how she feels about you, how much she loves you, how much she respects you and admires you. But the BH needs to see a shrink to "get over it" when his wife is telling him, loud and clear, "I loves to POS who I met over drinks one night at a bar and f((ked my a** for an hour straight more than I love you"?

Holy bizzaro world people. Let me state it plainly, it is NOT a BH's "job" to sit in counseling and have someone try to explain to him why it's OK his wife loves someone else more than him. Nope, not even a little bit. It's not his (or her, this can happen in the other direction too!) job to try to figure out why some sex act given to the AP is now "so important" to him. It is the WS's job to fix this or to walk; I'm sorry, I have a lot of sympathy for some waywards, especially wives, but that sympathy does not extend to "make it the husband's problem to figure out why he wants to try anal after she gave it to the AP". That's too far for me, it's not his problem, it's hers; if she's not up for it with her H but was the AP, it pretty much tells a man everything he needs to know about where he stands in his wife's eyes.

I guess I better complete that exit now because you're obviously not hearing what I'm saying.

I'm so sorry for your pain.

"Modern social norms don’t negate the feelings we carry deeply from evolution that’s my point."

feelings - very different than actions.

But did you ever once stop and wonder why she doesn't want to do that one certain thing? Did you ever think about discussing it with her and finding out the why? Maybe she hated it, maybe she was humiliated, maybe she was tied up, maybe she was drunk, maybe she was on drugs. And maybe none of the above but wouldn't you want to know the why before you draw the line in the sand and start meting out the consequences?

Of course. And I think most people in this situation do exactly that. Did he force it? No. Were you drunk? No. Did you hate it? I didn't ask this question because I knew the answer was going to be BS; she did it multiple times, how much could she have hated it? Were you tied up? No. Drugs? No. Humiliated? Again, same answer as above, not asked, but, also, think I got the answer from "multiple times".

So, what answer is left? Wanted him more than you? Loved him more? Made me hornier? Wanted the ego kibbles (which is probably the answer, but why do you want his and not mine)?

Secondly, I firmly believe that if everything else in a marriage is wonderful and you love your WW and WW is remorseful and loves you above all, getting a D because she doesn't want to perform a specific sexual act seems over the top and that perhaps a counselor could help the BH examine that and decide if it's really a deal breaker.

************

How about the WW gets in to the IC to see why it was so easy for her to give away to someone other than her husband as well.

I don't care how the WW feels. I thought this was about the pain of the BHs and examining the reasons for their pain and maybe ways to help alleviate some of it?

No. Did you hate it? I didn't ask this question because I knew the answer was going to be BS;

This is why my FWH never talked to me. Because he always "knew" what I was going to say. Also, he was very angry at me all the time because I didn't "know" what he was thinking. Apparently my FWH thought we did/could communicate telepathically. Which we did not and could not. Making assumptions is a poor way to communicate. And, stating you are not going to believe anyway so why ask is not good communication, either.

This is why my FWH never talked to me. Because he always "knew" what I was going to say. Also, he was very angry at me all the time because I didn't "know" what he was thinking. Apparently my FWH thought we did/could communicate telepathically. Which we did not and could not. Making assumptions is a poor way to communicate. And, stating you are not going to believe anyway so why ask is not good communication, either.

I talk to my W about just about everything SMS. However, I also don't believe in putting people in a situation where they have to lie. What exactly is a WW going to say when she's denying you anal sex, and you ask her how it was with the AP? "Oh it was awesome, he felt incredible inside of me, that's why I did it every time we were together, but no, I still won't do it for you". Come on, we all know what's going to be said "I felt pressured to do it", and we all know that's very likely not the truth (if so, why did you keep doing it, or do it with him multiple times a day, or any of the other tangible evidence that says you didn't hate it at all). It's one of those questions that simply cannot be answered truthfully without ending the marriage, IMHO, so it's better left unsaid.

ETA: If we D, I will ask, because I do want to know, and I think there's a chance I could get an honest answer then.

Not a red pill guy either.

But all those terms- ego kibbles, desperation, validation, fantasy land, inauthentic... they don’t take away from the fact that an AP was given things the BS would have loved, but made peace with not having in a monogamous marriage based on love and respect. Once the WS throws the respect of the covenant out the window, it doesn’t change the fact that AP enjoyed what BS wanted, and BS abided by false pretenses to the M. All those descriptors above aside, the AP reaped benefits, and the BS paid for it. How is the BS supposed to experience the level of enjoyment the AP did if they stay married? They can’t go back to the original terms.. they were false and disrespectful. They can either get their wants met by the remorseful WS who understands the consequences and unacceptable nature of what they did, or they can go outside the marriage or leave the marriage and find someone who will do them, if the Continues to refuse. I don’t really see much wiggle room in that, seems pretty cut and dry, no matter how we paint it. If things aren’t fixed, it seems the biggest winner sexually will have been the AP.

Just sayin....

Let me state it plainly, it is NOT a BH's "job" to sit in counseling and have someone try to explain to him why it's OK his wife loves someone else more than him.

So sex acts equals love? If you feel because a WW balks at doing some particular sex act with you means she doesn't love you, no, don't go to an IC. Get a divorce or try to understand and talk and communicate without making assumptions.

Many people see more sexually "explicit" acts, swallowing, anal, orgasm inside a woman, etc as a "measure" of a partners love for you.

Talk about Holy Bizarro World! So my dear parents, who have been married for almost 70 years now, who haven't had any serious marital issues, and I would assume a pretty vanilla sex life, (haven't asked, don't want to know) they don't love each other as much as someone who would do anal, swallow giz, etc. etc.? Is there a scale somewhere that does the measuring here? I would love to see that scale.

But did you ever once stop and wonder why she doesn't want to do that one certain thing? Did you ever think about discussing it with her and finding out the why? Maybe she hated it, maybe she was humiliated, maybe she was tied up, maybe she was drunk, maybe she was on drugs. And maybe none of the above but wouldn't you want to know the why before you draw the line in the sand and start meting out the consequences?

While not changing my stance, this is an excellent point, and provides a lot of context on what the women are talking about.

I do take issue with meting out consequences though. If you are seeing what we are saying here as any sort of punishment, either we're doing a shit job explaining ourselves, or you're doing a shit job of listening.

I don't care how the WW feels. I thought this was about the pain of the BHs and examining the reasons for their pain and maybe ways to help alleviate some of it?

This is what we are trying to say! This is a MAJOR if not THE MAJOR way we feel alleviation from those feelings of loss and hurt you describe! It’s clear as day, but I think it doesn’t want to be accepted for some reason. We’d never tell a BW not to enjoy herself and her needs during HB, of it helps.. how are men any different?

Talk about Holy Bizarro World! So my dear parents, who have been married for almost 70 years now, who haven't had any serious marital issues, and I would assume a pretty vanilla sex life, (haven't asked, don't want to know) they don't love each other as much as someone who would do anal, swallow giz, etc. etc.? Is there a scale somewhere that does the measuring here? I would love to see that scale.

SMS I fee like your deliberately avoiding the scenario here that is ACTUALLY at play in defense of your view...apples to oranges... your 70 year married parents are content with THEIR vanilla because it’s exclusively their vanilla, both sides of the street. If one of them was getting vanilla, and the other was giving chocolate, peanut butter cup, cookie dough and rocky road to someone outside the M, don’t you think the one gettin vanilla would feel cheated, vanilla would be taste bland, and they would been hungry for the flavors they went without?

[This message edited by nicenomore at 11:12 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

I have that scale for you SMS.

WeirdSex-------OM-------BH------NotWeirdSex

I think I can kill the whole "affair sex wasn't the real her" argument.

How about any money that was spent on the affair? I mean, the money was just exchanged tor ego kibbles and validation, right? So the money wasn't the real him.

Does that make the money lost in your life less real?

How is the sex given to the OM worth less?

[This message edited by xhz700 at 11:12 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Oh and by the way, we only have 20 pages to put this issue to bed, we better get to some agreeing.

I don't feel we are understanding each other here xhz700 about the scale. At least, I don't understand your scale.

This isn't even in regards to a WW and OM and BH. This was said just like how I quoted. That the more "explicit" the sex act is that measures a person's love for their spouse. Implying those that don't do anal or swallow don't love their spouse as much as someone who does those things.