SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For a very long time, years in fact, I resented my WH for all of the emails and texts he sent his OW (and the countless other woman he emailed). See, I'd send him an email and he wouldn't reply. Nothing. I felt a deeper level of betrayal because he had given them what he wouldn't do for me.

I spent so much time fixated on this that I missed for the forest for the trees until one day WH noticed I was pissed off and asked why. I said that I had emailed him and once again he hadn't replied.

He then said the following.

"Why do I need to email you when I am HERE talking to you?"

Light bulb!!!

He hates emailing. For a long time I thought he just hated emailing ME. The truth is he hates it period. (His grammer sucks lol). What he had given them wasnt his true self. He simply emailed to keep them interested with sweet talk.

Him, sitting with me Talking face to face was his genuine self and actually a hell of alot harder IMO. Its also 100% authentic. I know he wants to talk to me, not just doing it because I am demanding it.

I no longer email him. If I want to discuss something I talk to him. I can email him all I want but I know he will never hit reply.

I totally get what you are saying here. I hate being on the phone, just hate it. I can't talk on the phone and do other things, text takes me less time, it drives me nuts.

BUT, I talk to my dad on the phone, I conference call at work, I call to make Dr appointments... I call tons of people.

I only have sex with one person.

nicenomore - modern society norms outweigh biological evolutionary constructs every time.

No. If it outweighed it every time, there would never again be an unwanted pregnancy.

When our cerebral function overpowers our hormones, the human race is finished.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 10:04 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Rideitout that's a special kind of power you have if you know what I mean more than I do

No my example isn't to do with anything sexual but it was equally as upsetting to me.

I guess the point I was trying to make is this:

love is not part of an affair. using each other, ego kibbles, validation, and low self worth, among other things, are the recipe that makes up an affair.

love is far from it. self love is even further away.

if you understand that then you'll know that what she gave the OM was not love.

What he gave them wasn't real. Wasn't his true self. And that's what I am interested in. Not the fantasy he lived with them but the reality he has with me.

I'm not in competition with OW for the number of emails my WH sends.

You are not defined by the actions of your wife.

SEWard-

Modern social norms don’t negate the feelings we carry deeply from evolution that’s my point. We adhere to social norms because we must, not because we want to. I wanted to kill my wife’s AP, but I valued not going to jail more. I’d want to punish someone who killed my child. The feelings are real, the actions are based on on social norms. This is no different.

Biology and evolution are real, and have a real impact on our psyche on a deep level... because they are ingrained. What is fight or flight? A Social response?

Social norms are a construct we as stable humans abide by to maintain the status quo and maintain stable society. Doesn’t remove what is ingrained in us from birth... hence the argument we have here. The feelings are real and valid. They aren’t manifestations or pain exclusively, but biological responses to threat as well, whatever that may be. Why does a parent sacrifice their life to save her children? Social norms? Or biological mechanism to ensure the progeny survive? I think you know the answer.

Unless you beleive in creationism, which is an entirely different and if I may say, misguided school of thought...

For a very long time, years in fact, I resented my WH for all of the emails and texts he sent his OW (and the countless other woman he emailed). See, I'd send him an email and he wouldn't reply. Nothing. I felt a deeper level of betrayal because he had given them what he wouldn't do for me.

This is a great analogy, but let me give you the additional parts you're missing to make it line up more.

Imagine if your favorite thing in the world is e-mail. Nothing brings you more pleasure than a well written e-mail. The "ding" of your inbox lights up your life. Husband never e-mailed you during the marriage, which was always a sore point, but you loved him, so you got over it.

Now, imagine, as you did, with your deep and undying love for e-mail, that your H spent all his time in his A e-mailing the other person. Non-stop, pages upon pages of the e-mails that you would have loved to receive. Starting to make sense yet?

And now, the kicker. As you see those pages upon pages of e-mails, you realize you only have one person in your e-mail contacts list. Your husband. He's the only person in the world that you can e-mail with, either sending to or receiving. If he doesn't e-mail you, you'll never get another e-mail again as long as you live. Not a single word, never a "ding" on your Gmail inbox again.

That is what we're talking about here; it's not dinners (which you can go to with anyone) it's not flowers (which your girlfriends can give you) it's not poetry (which you can read in a book) and it's not e-mails (which you probably share with dozens or hundreds of people). There's only ONE person in the world who can e-mail you, and it's your H/W. And you thought you'd never e-mail again, and were willing to give it up because you loved your H so much. Come to find out, you never needed to give anything up, it wasn't e-mail he hated, it was e-mail with you (despite what he said earlier). And, status quo returned, you'll never send another e-mail again? And be OK with it?

Oh, and BTW, your H will happily claim to you "it wasn't about e-mail", which is somehow supposed to help. Or tell you he was broken, which is why he was sending half a dozen e-mails a day, but will never, before or to the day you die, send you a single one.

I still assert that some male posters are pushing a slut/whore agenda. Specifically when the thread is not sex related, or the OP is not seeking advice related to sex, or when they update that their WW attempted suicide and a male poster has to throw in the “slut” word.

In the sex given to AP and denied in the marriage: Men and women are different sexually. No amount of explanation can change how a person feels. There are enough men posting here that lets me believe their feelings are valid and not isolated. I may not agree, but they’re there.

Interestingly, we also hear a lot about hysterical bonding after DDay. While the advice generally given may include caution in that regard, I have never read anyone object to a BW using her WH sexually.

I was going to post here something else but it has occured to me that you really can't make a blind man see. The women who have posted to this thread (with a few very important exceptions) are not even trying to hear our side. they are too busy defending a position. So I'm off this one.

@DragnHeart, I agree with what you are saying somewhat. I guess the difference is that I don't believe that affairs are fake, and I don't believe in the affair fog. People can word salad around it all they like, but people have affairs because it's fun, and a diversion. Marriages are no more "real" than affairs are. It's a matter of convenience. People make choices, sometimes they suck. If a woman in the future told me something was off limits sexually and I accepted that, then I found she gave that willingly to someone else, I am done.

The truth is, most of what I am saying here is colored by the fact that I would never allow for another reconciliation in my life.

Rideitout wrote: The logical fallacies in this thread blow my mind. Let's take just the last few posts..

2. A BH shouldn't expect the same sexual treatment as the AP because the acts themselves are theirs to give, and if they don't feel that way about their BH, that is their right.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Women have to right to choose if they perform sexual acts.

Coupled with:

But if a certain sex act is a deal breaker for R, I think the BH should get into counseling or something to find out if he's putting too much importance on it.

The 2 paragraphs you quoted were written by 2 different people.

Secondly, I firmly believe that if everything else in a marriage is wonderful and you love your WW and WW is remorseful and loves you above all, getting a D because she doesn't want to perform a specific sexual act seems over the top and that perhaps a counselor could help the BH examine that and decide if it's really a deal breaker.

Don't change what I said to create talking points.

I get.it I do.

My WH went down on ow2. Lots. Its not that he had never done that with me but it was more with her.

Now. Its been years since his A with her ended and only recently was that brought back into the bedroom. The thought of his mouth on me after it had been on her made it so disgusting I couldn't bare it. Really I still can't. It just happened and instead of kicking him I went with it to see if I could handle it.

That said I can say with total honesty that if he never goes down on me again I'd be ok with that. He knows ways to get me off that sorta trump the tongue lol. We have had to start from scratch in our marriage, that will be ten years in just days. The old marriage died. A new marriage is in the works and it's bloody hard. Learning to trust, being friends again, working up to being lovers. It's taken time and alot of frustration and tears. But we are moving forward. We are learning to make sex a mutual pleasure. And to do that we have had to talk it out. Not an easy thing for us. Communication has never been our strong point.

I still assert that some male posters are pushing a slut/whore agenda. Specifically when the thread is not sex related, or the OP is not seeking advice related to sex, or when they update that their WW attempted suicide and a male poster has to throw in the “slut” word.

In the sex given to AP and denied in the marriage: Men and women are different sexually. No amount of explanation can change how a person feels. There are enough men posting here that lets me believe their feelings are valid and not isolated. I may not agree, but they’re there.

Interestingly, we also hear a lot about hysterical bonding after DDay. While the advice generally given may include caution in that regard, I have never read anyone object to a BW using her WH sexually.

@Greeneyesbluezy, home run. While I do have a firm opinion on this issue, I guarantee that you can go through my post history and not find me using the word slut or whore as a pejorative.

The portion I put in bold is literally all I have asked of anyone. Thank you.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 10:19 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

The fact that my wife texted OM 10 times a day or so on average, that I'm aware of and talked to him for an hour or so on the phone IS an issue for us. I have told her that I want that time back, that if we are to rebuild emotional intimacy, that I see that as a major consideration.

While I expect her to check in with me (as part of my monitoring), I asked her to view it as a chance to reconnect rather than an imposition on her freedom. That this could be an incredible tool for us rebuilding. Thus far, she has done (mostly) the bare minimum. I don't think that will be acceptable going forward either. It's not just sex. In fact, I think that is a good example because it is an action (like sex) that she can undertake right now (unlike most of the requirements that will play out over time or just involve words [which I can't trust]).

Interestingly, we also hear a lot about hysterical bonding after DDay. While the advice generally given may include caution in that regard, I have never read anyone object to a BW using her WH sexually.

Wow, that was a breath of fresh air. I was beginning to think I could "read" any of the posts in this thread by just looking at the male/female icons and knowing what they were about to say. Thank you for posting that, and no, I've never seen that, in fact, I've seen the opposite; "make it about you", "get what you want, don't worry about him" as advice given to BW's who are HBing with their WH's. Advice that I, BTW, agree with. I just don't agree it only applies to one sex, in fact, I think it's more critical for a BH than a BW, if anyone is going to get that advice, it would be a BH. However, being clear, BOTH BW and BH, I would give the same advice, and it's the advice we give BW's, NOT the advice that is given here for BH's by many of the posters (to get over it, it wasn't about you, etc).

BTW, I love your signature line, laughed out loud, and it almost.. Almost.. Gave me pause before responding.

@ xhz700

I'm so sorry for what you have gone through. It does sound like the pain is still very raw for you.

No I don't agree with everything here but I can understand the pain and wish you only a better future and healing.

Secondly, I firmly believe that if everything else in a marriage is wonderful and you love your WW and WW is remorseful and loves you above all, getting a D because she doesn't want to perform a specific sexual act seems over the top and that perhaps a counselor could help the BH examine that and decide if it's really a deal breaker.

How about the WW gets in to the IC to see why it was so easy for her to give away to someone other than her husband as well.

Secondly, I firmly believe that if everything else in a marriage is wonderful and you love your WW and WW is remorseful and loves you above all, getting a D because she doesn't want to perform a specific sexual act seems over the top and that perhaps a counselor could help the BH examine that and decide if it's really a deal breaker.

I don't agree at all. The deal breaker was the affair. As a condition to rebuild or reconcile or whatever the WS must not only now be faithful but also meet the new conditions that the new relationship is to be built upon. If a WS has any issue with any of the new conditions then there is no point to continue. Just get a D and never see your cheating spouse again, simple.

@ xhz700

I'm so sorry for what you have gone through. It does sound like the pain is still very raw for you.

No I don't agree with everything here but I can understand the pain and wish you only a better future and healing.

@DragnHeart, Thank you, really. I know how I come across sometimes. Going through the wringer with a BPD wife, and then divorcing her really has affected my view of women and relationships. I won't be dating until I get my hear on straight.

I know all women are not my XWW, but it's still tough.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 10:25 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

I still assert that some male posters are pushing a slut/whore agenda. Specifically when the thread is not sex related, or the OP is not seeking advice related to sex, or when they update that their WW attempted suicide and a male poster has to throw in the “slut” word.

What can you say? Some words just fit. I don't call anyone's wife a slut or whore because thats not cool, but I can't help but think of all WW's this way. Instead of exchanging cash for sex, they exchange validation/affirmation for sex. Bartering for sex one way or another makes you a whore in my book.

What can you say? Some words just fit. I don't call anyone's wife a slut or whore because thats not cool, but I can't help but think of all WW's this way. Instead of exchanging cash for sex, they exchange validation/affirmation for sex. Bartering for sex one way or another makes you a whore in my book.

I have said it before in other threads, but I will say it here again, I am not with RedPillRandy here...