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Dragn heart’s post also shows how sex acts given to an AP can and do affect both sexes.

Some women won’t perform certain sex acts anymore because their husband got it from the AP.

While it seems men and women react differently to sexual details, they do, oftentimes, seem to matter to both

Another home run from Greeneyesbluezy.

ROFL@XHZ..

Here's the scale that exists in my head for how much a woman cares for you, I suspect it's pretty common:

Holding hands - Kissing, mouth closed - Kissing, mouth open - Touching breasts over clothes - Touching genitals over clothes - Breasts under clothes, genital under clothes - Making out naked - Mutual masturbation - Oral sex - Vaginal sex with condom - Anal sex with condom - Vaginal sex without condom, orgasm on body - Vaginal sex without condom, orgasm on face - Oral sex w/swallowing - Anal sex - Dressing up like stuffed animals and having sex. (joke).

So sex acts equals love? If you feel because a WW balks at doing some particular sex act with you means she doesn't love you, no, don't go to an IC. Get a divorce or try to understand and talk and communicate without making assumptions.

That seems to be what a lot of us men are saying. Do we all need a therapist? Or is this just how men see it? Shall we tell women to see a therapist because they often feel loved when men talk romantically to them?

Never posted here before but I have followed this thread

Cantgohere - welcome to SI!

Sorry this thread stinks as an introduction to the website. It's funny. Just about every poster on it I have personally seen jump to provide great support to new members in need and are good people trying to help others get through the nastiest shit sandwich.

I feel like you walked in on the pope taking a dump, lol.

Regardless of this noise, I hope you find something useful in our club. Members jacket is in the mail.

I don't feel we are understanding each other here xhz700 about the scale. At least, I don't understand your scale.

This isn't even in regards to a WW and OM and BH. This was said just like how I quoted. That the more "explicit" the sex act is that measures a person's love for their spouse. Implying those that don't do anal or swallow don't love their spouse as much as someone who does those things.

I am sorry, I thought the googly eye emoji successfully illustrated how silly the idea of a scale is. Perhaps you thought I was saying you were off your rocker. It was an attempt at levity.

If a WW does something for an AP that she refuses her husband, especially after previously telling him that it's off limits, it's always going to be an issue. Sure, by all means discuss it, communicate, figure out what it means for everyone involved. At the end of the day, any refusal in this situation is going to come across as disingenuous at least.

What a WW does not want is a BH who is in reconciliation who, in the back of his mind, has doubts that his WW truly loves him, desires him, and respects him. She does not want a BH who, in the back of his mind, believes that she loved, desired, and respected, the AP more. It will build resentment and anger that in time, years later, will come out in unhealthy ways. I never called my wife names after the affair. Never even felt like it. But my anger strong. If I could have killed the AP and not go to jail, I would have.

I hear that my wife's affair was not about me. I understand that. I hear that it was a fantasy. I understand that. But no amount of imagination can change the fact that my wife did what she did during the affair sexually. No amount of imagination can change the fact that some of the sexual acts she did she asked for, she initiated. For me, that is the when she and I was at a crossroads. To the right we R, to the left we D. She asked for and initiated sex acts that she told me no. No cannot be a part of R if we are going to make it. We had long talks about this very thing. April will be 12 years so we worked it out.

Edited: I don't equate sex at with love. I do equate it with desire. Sexual desire and passion. Her desire to please that person sexually. If she did things with him, and refuse to do with me, then it leads me to believe that her sexual desire for him, her desire to please him was much stronger than for me. I do believe that my wife loves me above all others. Today, I believe that she loves me. But her sexual desire was stronger for the AP. She did things willingly for me that it took an affair for her to want to do with me. She completely disagrees with this. She says she has more desire for me sexually than she ever did for the AP. And that might be true now. But I don't believe it to be true before the affair. And it makes it hard to believe it to be true now.

[This message edited by WilliamM at 11:28 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Rideitout wrote: And, to a poster who responded after this, yes, I should make that clear. I am in R, and I love my wife dearly. She did things with the OM that were "off the table" for me, which is why this is a sore spot for me (and I suspect many other posters here). But I love her dearly which is the only reason that I am attempting to R; I can see a life without her, but I want our life together much more. But that life together cannot, simply CANNOT happen without sexual parity and eventually sexual things beyond what she did with the AP. It just can't, for me, I will never get past it. But it's because of my situation and how I feel that I post on things like that, because I know there are other WW's out there who love their BH's and are desperate to R, and who's BH is still madly in love with them, but they have this exact issue between them. So much so, that it's almost "defacto" female cheating. I want these women to know, if you want to R, this has to be fixed, and the way to fix it isn't to explain it away, it's not to send the man to years of IC, or go to years of MC. It's to restore the love you have for him in his mind. And for many men, the way that happens is sexually. Like it or not, think it's because we are shallow or cave men.. It just is.

Have you actually told her this? Does she know that you are feeling unloved because of this?

After participating in this discussion, surely you can see that not everyone defines what we're willing to do sexually with how much love we have for someone. I understand that you do but perhaps your WW doesn't? And if not, maybe you have to explain it to her. Really and truly from the heart.

Alternately, what if she still can't do what you want, at least not at the present time, but suggests that the 2 of you try something new that neither of you have tried before so that it's special, just the 2 of you, would you be willing to try that? Would that be a positive step forward?

I never meant to negate your feelings or discount your pain. But I also believe that your future happiness in R rides on you beginning to realize that her view of sex and love might be different than yours and you might need to talk it out some more.

I'd also like to clarify that requiring a certain act in order to stay married will not help build a healthy marriage. Because the truth is, what you all really want is for her to love you so much that she surrenders herself, without reservation, to you in the marital bed. The acts themselves aren't the issue, it's the withholding a part of herself that bothers you. But that will come with time as you move forward in rebuilding your marriage. Just love each other, the rest will come.

ETA: I want to clarify that I am not trying to be negative in any way. It was never my intention. I was just trying to share my opinion that different people view things differently and if WW doesn't view it the same way you do, it may or may not warrant a D, that there might be other ways to approach things and come to the point that they lived happily ever after.

[This message edited by josiep at 11:28 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

I do have some more context to weigh in on here.

About a year after my WWs affair, she suddenly wanted to be choked. Never had mentioned it before, never shower any interest, but suddenly she knew she wanted it (I guess people change) and knew exactly how to tell me to do it (wait a minute...).

You'll probably won't be surprised where she got it from. Nope, not the AP, but another guy that she was text messaging with (at least).

Suffice it to say, I was no longer interested in doing that with her.

@RideItOut here is my actual scale...

Casual glance across crowded bar-----------------------------------Diaper stuff

SMS: DO NOT EVER ASK! Lol. Assume vanilla, otherwise it will rot your brain!!

The collective experience and wisdom of all members here is immeasurable to both Wayward and Betrayed. We can advise, but, we cannot change a feeling.

Men can and do experience the after affects of infidelity differently than women. Not all, not most, but many. We are different.

A woman who no longer gives blowjobs because her WH enjoyed them with AP, is never told to go to counseling and try to figure out why not giving blowjobs anymore is so important to her.

I think what men in this thread want is a validation that feeling the way they do is not sub-human. It’s valid and real to them.

Oh, thank you, xhz700. I was hoping that was what you meant, but I wasn't sure.

And, I am in agreement with you BH's in theory. I have stated I would be devastated if my FWH refused to do something sexually with me that he did with OW that I wanted. I can totally see how that would hurt the BH's. I can see how that would hurt BW's, too.

I didn't want any sexual details from my FWH's LTA. The reason being is because I didn't want it to be a competition (not sure if that is the best word) with the OW. The Milkshakes sex life is the Milkshakes sex life. What FWH did with OW, for me, is an entirely separate disgusting irrelevant event(s) and has no bearing on our sex life. I understand others feel differently.

@josiep, I will answer, though you aren't asking me. I see you are really trying. I don't disagree with almost anything that you've said.

Have you actually told her this? Does she know that you are feeling unloved because of this?

Yes I did, she swore she would initiate more and try harder. I got the "physical pain" excuses like other guys posting here. Yeah, I quoted it, because there were no complaints about pain with the OM. No I am not that big.

After participating in this discussion, surely you can see that not everyone defines what we're willing to do sexually with how much love we have for someone. I understand that you do but perhaps your WW doesn't? And if not, maybe you have to explain it to her. Really and truly from the heart.

You raise a great point here, sincerely. While it can be frustrating for me (it seems silly having to tell a woman that it hurts me and I feel unloved that she did something with someone else while married to me, and she won't give me the same) but perhaps it is important to be open about these things because clearly love and sex have nothing to do with each other for women. Maybe trust and sex would be more accurate?

Alternately, what if she still can't do what you want, at least not at the present time, but suggests that the 2 of you try something new that neither of you have tried before so that it's special, just the 2 of you, would you be willing to try that? Would that be a positive step forward?

This would be a reasonable alternate to ending a marriage, I guess I am not sure about long-term though.

I'd also like to clarify that requiring a certain act in order to stay married will not help build a healthy marriage. The acts themselves aren't the issue, it's the withholding a part of herself that bothers you. But that will come with time as you move forward in rebuilding your marriage. Just love each other, the rest will come.

You are right. Read through this thread from a man's perspective. You said "Because the truth is, what you all really want is for her to love you so much that she surrenders herself, without reservation, to you in the marital bed." BUT we've been told that sex ISN'T love. Which is it?

A woman who no longer gives blowjobs because her WH enjoyed them with AP, is never told to go to counseling and try to figure out why not giving blowjobs anymore is so important to her.

*******************

If this is in reference to my suggestion of IC for a BH who believed that a single sexual act was grounds for divorce even though he's totally in love with his WW, wants to stay with her and everything else in their marriage is great.

I specifically suggested it was to figure out if it that one item is really a dealbreaker for him; it wasn't to help him get over it, it wasn't for her sake, it was 100% for his sake to make sure divorce was the best decision for him.

I though I wrote it pretty clear but it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

SMS: DO NOT EVER ASK! Lol. Assume vanilla, otherwise it will rot your brain!!

I was talking to my dear mother on the phone (we don't live in the same state) and my dear father shouted out in the background "And we still have sex!" He will be 90 in April. Yep, not going to ask.

I'd also like to clarify that requiring a certain act in order to stay married will not help build a healthy marriage. Because the truth is, what you all really want is for her to love you so much that she surrenders herself, without reservation, to you in the marital bed. The acts themselves aren't the issue, it's the withholding a part of herself that bothers you. But that will come with time as you move forward in rebuilding your marriage. Just love each other, the rest will come.

Josie...I think that this is generally a pretty good thought really.

Requiring certain sex acts probably is not going to lead to a healthy marriage. I don't know if surrender is the right word. But its acceptable to me. Yeah, We want our spouses to love us and want to do things sexually with us. And i think for most, yes, its not necessarily the with holding of the act itself. its the giving themselves to another and not us.

And that's the crux of it isn't it. How do you wrap your head around your loved one giving themselves to another person and not you. When we are talking about sex and intimacy its really the only thing that is between the two people in the marriage exclusively. Or at least in most marriages.

No, Josie, please do not take offense.

I agree, a competent (not easy to find) counselor can help both sexes in regards to the feelings of injustice, revenge or one-upsmanship.

What I’m trying to convey is feelings are valid. Enough men here have told me what they feel specifically to sex acts.

My response is simply that we can recognize, not agree with, that many men feel a certain way. And, if we can examine, at the same time, how we recognize a BW’s feelings about the sex acts yet we advise differently.

@josiep, I will answer, though you aren't asking me. I see you are really trying. I don't disagree with almost anything that you've said.

Have you actually told her this? Does she know that you are feeling unloved because of this?

Yes I did, she swore she would initiate more and try harder. I got the "physical pain" excuses like other guys posting here. Yeah, I quoted it, because there were no complaints about pain with the OM. No I am not that big.

After participating in this discussion, surely you can see that not everyone defines what we're willing to do sexually with how much love we have for someone. I understand that you do but perhaps your WW doesn't? And if not, maybe you have to explain it to her. Really and truly from the heart.

You raise a great point here, sincerely. While it can be frustrating for me (it seems silly having to tell a woman that it hurts me and I feel unloved that she did something with someone else while married to me, and she won't give me the same) but perhaps it is important to be open about these things because clearly love and sex have nothing to do with each other for women. Maybe trust and sex would be more accurate?

Alternately, what if she still can't do what you want, at least not at the present time, but suggests that the 2 of you try something new that neither of you have tried before so that it's special, just the 2 of you, would you be willing to try that? Would that be a positive step forward?

This would be a reasonable alternate to ending a marriage, I guess I am not sure about long-term though.

I'd also like to clarify that requiring a certain act in order to stay married will not help build a healthy marriage. The acts themselves aren't the issue, it's the withholding a part of herself that bothers you. But that will come with time as you move forward in rebuilding your marriage. Just love each other, the rest will come.

You are right. Read through this thread from a man's perspective. You said "Because the truth is, what you all really want is for her to love you so much that she surrenders herself, without reservation, to you in the marital bed." BUT we've been told that sex ISN'T love. Which is it?

I haven't told you that sex isn't love. I believe men do see it that way more than women do but it's not cut and dried.

I wrote that about the surrender because I believe a lot of BH's will only feel truly loved when their WWs do that; moreso than if she agrees to a particular act (although in the "surrender" mode, that would obviously be on the table). What I was trying to get at is, it's not the particular act that bothers you, it's the holding a part of herself back - IMHO, of course. I wouldn't exactly know because I'm a BW but from what I've read and observed, I think I'm close to the truth. But I wrote that based on what you men have said and what I personally know about life but I'm not sure a lot of women know that and might have to have it explained to them.

And the "take me, do what you want with me, I'm yours" action speaks to the caveman part of the male brain and there's nothing sexier after that.

Damn, I wish I wasn't so old cuz maybe I would like to be with someone again someday.

Suggesting a man needs counseling because he finds it important to have better/more intimate/more engaged/more sex with his W after her A

So, by demanding performance of anything much less demeaning sex acts, ultimately results in “intimate/engaged sex”? We talk a lot about affairs being abuse. Is this tit for tat? What makes you believe that demanding these things will make your WS even want to attempt R? Sounds like a determination to exact what you firmly believe belongs to you at any cost even if it does traumatize and fuck them up a little bit more.

But, hey, they did this, right? I’ll give you another chance but you have to fuck me this way or get out. WOW. Who wouldn’t enjoy that? Tho understandable, seems completely counterproductive if the true goal is rebuilding a meaningful relationship.

Josie you’re not old. And, I’ll lay a bet today that you will not be alone forever.

And, you’re right, I don’t believe it’s simply sex or love. (Another poster expressed this earlier). It’s trust. Ain’t no way that sick goes near my ass without me trusting you to the nth.

Maybe, that trust given to some dickwad, after a few months of kibbles, is what truly haunts some men.

I'd also like to clarify that requiring a certain act in order to stay married will not help build a healthy marriage. Because the truth is, what you all really want is for her to love you so much that she surrenders herself, without reservation, to you in the marital bed. The acts themselves aren't the issue, it's the withholding a part of herself that bothers you. But that will come with time as you move forward in rebuilding your marriage. Just love each other, the rest will come.

Josie...I think that this is generally a pretty good thought really.

Requiring certain sex acts probably is not going to lead to a healthy marriage. I don't know if surrender is the right word. But its acceptable to me. Yeah, We want our spouses to love us and want to do things sexually with us. And i think for most, yes, its not necessarily the with holding of the act itself. its the giving themselves to another and not us.

And that's the crux of it isn't it. How do you wrap your head around your loved one giving themselves to another person and not you. When we are talking about sex and intimacy its really the only thing that is between the two people in the marriage exclusively. Or at least in most marriages.

But I think that's part of what I'm trying to point out that might help relieve some of the pain. In her mind, the WW might not have thought of it as giving herself to the AP. In her mind, she might have just been giving him sex although more likely getting sex. Which I realize is the part that hurts the BH but maybe it wouldn't hurt as much if he realized or understood that it wasn't the love part in her mind.

Not saying anyone is right or wrong about how they feel but could it be that understanding how the other person views what they're doing might make is less difficult to forgive?

I don't know. So much pain and all so senseless.

But, hey, they did this, right? I’ll give you another chance but you have to fuck me this way or get out. WOW. Who wouldn’t enjoy that? Tho understandable, seems completely counterproductive if the true goal is rebuilding a meaningful relationship.

A WS has already destroyed the M with the A. That relationship is dead! If WS wants a "second chance" then yes there are many conditions that must be met including a new sexual contract. I was denied sex not just sex acts for 4 years!!!! If I can't expect sex as a condition of R then I have zero interest in being married anymore.

Maybe, that trust given to some dickwad, after a few months of kibbles, is what truly haunts some men.

Exactly, a POS serial philanderer can convince her not only to do anal at work but do it so much that they didn't even need lube and she started liking it. It takes planning, time and trust to even get to a place where anal sex is possible. He invested a lot of time grooming her for that. To me it's one of the most trusting sexual acts a woman can do for a man because of the intimacy involved. My WW said she couldn't even trust him but let him do that to her almost weekly? Damn right that hurts!