SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"Take a poly or else..." for one thing.

I've also read where BWs expect upgrades on things, like cars and trips and jewelry, as retribution (or restitution) for the affair. Or they will comment that they got an upgrade on something like that and that's okay because that's the least they deserve. But to me that's their WH's catering to what they know is something their wife values...

This is the same thing to me. How is it not the same thing? Just because it is a sexual demand?

Hi JayMom,

I actually think it is the same thing. Demanding cars or vacations is a retribution. Sex is just more demeaning since it feels like abuse when pushed.

If I could not trust what my remorseful WH was telling me, I would say "I understand that you are trying to tell the truth. However, I am finding it difficult to trust you because of your actions. Will you take a poly and put my mind at ease?" I would not threaten consequences, since his choice has to be his own. If he refused, I would walk out.

Ephimera

I would not want my WH to take me out to dinner just because that's what he did with the OW. I would want him to feel the desire to take me out on his own. But demanding cars, vacation etc is just retribution in my opinion. Demanding sex is the same, but more demeaning since being pushed into it feels more like rape.

Also, if my WH seemed remorseful but I had a strong feeling that there were some untruths, I would simply say " I understand that you may be telling the truth but because of what you did I find it difficult to take you at your word. Will you take a poly to put my mind at ease?" I would not use threats. If he chose not to do it, I would walk out.

Okay, I'm with you. I wouldn't even make the demands. I would walk out. Period. Because for me it is deal break. But you and I are a minority here, to be honest.

I see people day in and day out in absolute knots over things like Polys and failed polys and demanding all kinds of things and throwing out wedding rings and demanding vow renewals and insisting that books are read and posting happy stories because there is a new car in the garage etc. And I get that we might say: "well, he's doing it because he wants to do it." and I would simply say: "there's a guy who is aware of what she values and is gaming the system because he knows she is willing to accept a new car by way of apology." Just the same as I would say about a WW who suddenly becomes a sex goddess at home in order to get her man to reconcile.

But I think I'm cynical when it comes to reconciliation because honestly, what on earth else can they do to make it up to the person they've betrayed? They can't unfuck the donkey...but they can try to do whatever it takes to make it hurt less. And it is really unfair for me to see nefarious motives in whatever a wayward would do to ease some of the pain they have inflicted.

Give me a Mercedes or I will divorce even though it has nothing to do with anything

versus

Give me anal cuz you gave it to OM

??

What did I say?? Lol

Randy -- I think it was you that said that about busting a wayward wife down to 'slut'; if I'm wrong about that, I really apologize. I've read so much in this thread today I'm a bit cross-eyed. I should have quoted it when I read it, because it really stood out to me as a kind of gross generalization about women.

Whoever said it: I just wonder about a world view where men go fishing for a partner in a pool where they understand all the women in it to be sluts and that they are the ones who elevate the slut to girlfriend and then wife. That's just indicative of so much fear and probably pain. But frightened and wounded people are dangerous. I'd hope for better someone who feels and thinks that way, but it is that person's journey and unless it changes, that person is in for just more and more pain.

I actually think it is the same thing. Demanding cars or vacations is a retribution. Sex is just more demeaning since it feels like abuse when pushed.

And the problem, as I see it, is very few men demand cars/vacations/money as "retribution". We don't care for that stuff, even if my W gave a car to the AP, I'd say "oh well", I would never want her to give me one.

What this whole thread basically boils down to, the "retribution" that women typically want is "fine/OK/expected" and we all support it. The "retribution" that men want is rapey and bad. I think that's where it all falls apart for me. We value different things, my W could buy me 100 cars (and I am a bit of a car nut), I'd much rather have a single night with her having passionate and kinky sex. No car in the world would come close to the experience of swallowing/anal/etc if freely given. Just like I think many (not all, as evidenced in this thread) women would rather have a nice piece of jewelry or a post-nup, or some other financial consideration rather than a super-awesome sexual experience with their husband. They care more about things outside of sex. We are just different, that's the fundamental message I get 40 pages in. And men valuing sex, and wanting to have "better, more or more exotic" sex than the AP is no more wrong than a woman finding her man bought his AP a ring and wanting one for herself that's twice the size and nicer.

My point.. NEITHER is wrong, neither is rape or theft, and neither is unreasonable.

Hey y'all.

I'm worried for everyone here. Everyone is clearly in a lot of pain. Everyone's trying to rebuild what's broken, in their own marriages and lives, with their own truths.

Do you think we could just, I don't know, take a breath? Take a moment? I see a lot of confused hurting folks fighting through a lot of pain and thinking that the "other side", whoever that other side is, wants to attack them, their rights, their needs, their wants - things they're invested in.

There isn't some grand answer to any of this. There isn't one side that's going to win while the other loses - this is all both lose-lose and win-win, because we're all in this mess. Are we arguing to be right, or are we arguing to connect with each other? Or both? Or neither? Or some chimera of reasons?

Like I said, do you think we could just take a moment?

(((HUGS to everyone here)))

Rideitout: as you know I agree with you that it is apples and apples.

You said you want the kinky sex

if freely given

Yes, and I think the point that the women here may be saying that many of the guys here are suggesting that making the demand for anal or whatever "or else" means it is demonstrably not freely given, so why would it satisfy a man who wants the act freely given? That means she could swing from the chandelier for you and if she did it under duress, it would not mean anything, right?

So here's how this would have to change, then, for everything to be even steven:

to Betrayeds we would say: "these are the things your wayward should freely give you: Polygraphs, Post nup, read all kinds of books and have long discussions about it, answer any question any time, provide any sex act that was provided to the AP" But we cannot give advice that says: "These are the things that you have a right to demand."

Would there be any reconciliation without making some of these things demands and only wait for them to be freely given?

The comment about “sluts” and rebuilding marital status was mine. And, no, I certainly have never said that all women are sluts. Nothing in my post suggested such.

Plan C, quite right! It was you. Randy, I apologize. I am sorry for that misattribution.

Plan C, what was confusing to me is you said once a woman cheats she gets busted 'back' to rank of slut...which as I was reading it I took as, the starting point for women, the general rank so to speak, is slut.

It was probably too close of a reading, and then at the same time way too careless. And that's not funny really, because it was a careless misread. As I said, I've been reading through hundreds of posts today in just this thread, so I was a little crosseyed.

many apologies. And I don't fundamentally disagree with what you said, in terms of the probably progression of a betrayed's feelings towards his or her wayward, but I would include cheating men into the equation as well. Unfortunately there is no slur for a man like slut. Just the injustice of fundamental gender inequality.

Honest mistake. Plan C and I can pass for brothers. They actually call me Plan D in my social circle.

"Just want to make sure that you guys know I'm not saying get over the actions of your WW. I am saying that.perhaps her actions were a result for only wanting to keep the affair going, fear of if she stopped say anal with ap he would end it and all would come out. Whatever her reason for doing things with her AP isn't a reflection of you in any way."

Fearing that if WW stops anal she will lose her OM.

Though doing it for her OM is not a reflection on

her BH.

How's that?

She is not afraid that she will lose her BH, so

the BH does not get anal as the OM did?

"So sex acts equals love? If you feel because a WW balks at doing some particular sex act with you means she doesn't love you, no, don't go to an IC. Get a divorce or try to understand and talk and communicate without making assumptions. "

Lets be correct.

It is not about the WW not wanting to do certain

sex acts with the BH.

It is about the WW doing sex acts for the OM and

not doing them for the BH.

"o my dear parents, who have been married for almost 70 years now, who haven't had any serious marital issues, and I would assume a pretty vanilla sex life, (haven't asked, don't want to know) they don't love each other as much as someone who would do anal, swallow giz, etc. etc."

This is not apples to oranges. Not even a fruit

to a vegetable.

Types of sex in a marriage without an affair to

impact it, is a meaningless comparison.

She is not afraid that she will lose her BH, so

the BH does not get anal as the OM did?

Hmm. I'm not going to make sense with my post, just fair warning. I want to understand something.

The BH feels like the loser. He feels like, because the OM had anal with his WW, therefore the OM is the winner.

He wants to have anal with his WW - wants her to offer it to him - so that she can choose him to be the winner and not the OM. He wants her validation. He wants to know that she values him enough to not leave him feeling like she chose the OM over him. He also wants to share physical intimacy with her, because he feels closer to her through physical intimacy than through anything else.

The WW wants to show her BH that he's the winner, that she values him. Having anal sex with him would show him that. In the process, though, it would remind her of what she did with the OM, that she was a loser for betraying her BH then, and that she remains a loser now. She feels like a slut when she looks back to how she was, and it reinforces to her that she is still one now, and the shame worsens. Also, she might feel like she has no sexuality of her own, that her own sexuality is defined by either her BH's or the OM's. That she is a tool rather than an actual person when it comes to sexual activities. Her choices to partake in activities, but still not her own preferences.

The BH feels low, crushed, emasculated and betrayed, and wants to have anal with his WW to regain his self-esteem. The WW feels that she has very low self-respect, and having anal with her BH confirms it, because it confirms that he has lost all respect for her as well.

And because we're talking about bodies, our most intimate of houses, and not possessions, it makes everything that much more personal and heartbreaking.

Does that sort of capture where everyone's pain is, now?

Jay mom and hellfire

THANK YOU for seeing this objectively for what it is logically, and without a gender bias. It was never about men vs women. Or it shouldn’t have been. It was about importance of aspects to ensure healing and R. Like it or not folks, as jaymom surmised exceedingly quickly, sex is really really really really important To most guys. Male or female, we are encouraged as WS to do what our partner needs to heal if we want R. Sex, apparently is some exception. Like it or not folks, it’s a real need for many if not most BS, particularly BHs. Accept it or not, it’s not going to change or go anywhere you know? It just is what it is.

Ephemera- I’m glad you didn’t want or need these things to R, but many people do... it is what it is. And how can you say

If I could not trust what my remorseful WH was telling me, I would say "I understand that you are trying to tell the truth. However, I am finding it difficult to trust you because of your actions. Will you take a poly and put my mind at ease?" I would not threaten consequences, since his choice has to be his own. If he refused, I would walk out.

isn this literally the same thing as do it or I’m gone? That’s not a threat? It’s jist confusing.

Part of me believes that’s perhaps, to some extent some people here reject the idea of sexual parity being important outright because it makes an assumption that sex is such a very important aspect of a mans existence that it MUST mean that de facto, men only value women for sex, which enters a political narrative, and likely makes some here feel hurt or undervalued, and is an uncomfortable thought.

I am here to assure you that’s sex is not the only thing women have to offer. Women are beautiful autonomous, capable, caring, driven, and incredible humans. No better or worse than men. sex is just ONE reason good men love women, but it’s a BIG reason. And it’s why it’s a such a raw point here.

Being forced to accept that another person experienced sexual joy with our spouse that we can’t, just FEELS unacceptable. We can’t fix it that, only a WS can want to. If they don’t, R is impossible. Like it or not, argue against it until you are blue in the face, doesn’t change the fact that it’s real? And a need for many BH, to R.

As I said before, and will say again, it just It what it is

[This message edited by nicenomore at 8:33 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

So is there a fear of losing BH once the affair was discovered? Would this same fear of loss work in reverse?

omg thank you . What silver said!

Not sure what the answer is but exactly how I feel

[This message edited by sewardak at 8:31 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Silver you just drove the hammer onto the nail and perfectly I might add. That seems to Ben an accurate dissection of the gender forces at play. When the WW realizes doing sex acts the husband desires ARENT about a lack of respect, but are about sexually reclaiming the spouse the BS loved and cherished, and is a gift he WANTS her to want to give, then things will progress. She does it because she wants to show her husband sexual love that no other man experienced better from her, that he is number one. He wants it to re affirm to himself that he is numbers ome to her too, and proceed to recommit with less doubt that he is actually number two.

Silver.

I understand what you’re saying, but is anal or bj or whatever the only act that she did with AP and doesn’t want to do with her husband?

She’s ok with making out, feeling up and PIV which she also did with AP?

Not saying that waywards don’t have brokenness in them, just when is something breaking them or when is it just breaking their betrayed?

Silverhopes

"Hmm. I'm not going to make sense with my post, just fair warning. I want to understand something.

The BH feels like the loser. He feels like, because the OM had anal with his WW, therefore the OM is the winner.

He wants to have anal with his WW - wants her to offer it to him - so that she can choose him to be the winner and not the OM. He wants her validation. He wants to know that she values him enough to not leave him feeling like she chose the OM over him. He also wants to share physical intimacy with her, because he feels closer to her through physical intimacy than through anything else.

The WW wants to show her BH that he's the winner, that she values him. Having anal sex with him would show him that. In the process, though, it would remind her of what she did with the OM, that she was a loser for betraying her BH then, and that she remains a loser now. She feels like a slut when she looks back to how she was, and it reinforces to her that she is still one now, and the shame worsens. Also, she might feel like she has no sexuality of her own, that her own sexuality is defined by either her BH's or the OM's. That she is a tool rather than an actual person when it comes to sexual activities. Her choices to partake in activities, but still not her own preferences.

The BH feels low, crushed, emasculated and betrayed, and wants to have anal with his WW to regain his self-esteem. The WW feels that she has very low self-respect, and having anal with her BH confirms it, because it confirms that he has lost all respect for her as well. "

In on of my posts I did say a WW can approach

her BH with how not only was having anal was

out of character for her so was the whole affair.

I understand your reasons to have anal because

I freely gave the OM anal. Having anal will

bring me back to that bad time. If you insist

I will do anal with one time so that there can

never be anything that I gave the OM that I did

not give you. But I will never be able to do it

more than once so do not ask again.

I can see most BH's having their WW explain it

to them that way they may agree to take a pass

on giving their WW anal.

Though I never read that version from the BH's

that have posted their story. They have a WW that

says I don't care what I did during the affair

or gave the OM anal. I am not giving you anal.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 8:56 PM, February 20th (Tuesday)]