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Robin et al, do you not realize that you are saying...

1. Women should be able to give themselves sexually based on how they feel about their partner, and shouldn't be forced to do anything.

2. A BH shouldn't expect the same sexual treatment as the AP because the acts themselves are theirs to give, and if they don't feel that way about their BH, that is their right.

OK, so your sexual behavior with us is directly linked to how you feel about us, but we shouldn't read anything into the sex acts that we get, because it doesn't reflect on us.

Heading for the exit, shaking my head........

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Women have to right to choose if they perform sexual acts.

And they have the right to GTFO out after they do those sex acts with another. Couldn't agree more.

The logical fallacies in this thread blow my mind. Let's take just the last few posts..

2. A BH shouldn't expect the same sexual treatment as the AP because the acts themselves are theirs to give, and if they don't feel that way about their BH, that is their right.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Women have to right to choose if they perform sexual acts.

Coupled with:

But if a certain sex act is a deal breaker for R, I think the BH should get into counseling or something to find out if he's putting too much importance on it.

So, let me just step back for a second. We are agreeing that sexual acts offered say something about how a woman feels about a man? And that's a woman's right (which I agree) to feel that way, and should be OK with the man (which I couldn't disagree with more)? But then, we pull that together with a BH should get into counseling if his W won't do it with him? The BH?!? Are you kidding me? What exactly do you say to the psych; "How do I come to terms with the fact that my W doesn't love me"?

Robin, I applaud you for your post, because, you are telling it like it is, and men know it to be true. The willingness of a woman to do sexual things with you, be it kiss you, sleep with you, or have anal sex with you is an excellent measure of how she feels about you, how much she loves you, how much she respects you and admires you. But the BH needs to see a shrink to "get over it" when his wife is telling him, loud and clear, "I loves to POS who I met over drinks one night at a bar and f((ked my a** for an hour straight more than I love you"?

Holy bizzaro world people. Let me state it plainly, it is NOT a BH's "job" to sit in counseling and have someone try to explain to him why it's OK his wife loves someone else more than him. Nope, not even a little bit. It's not his (or her, this can happen in the other direction too!) job to try to figure out why some sex act given to the AP is now "so important" to him. It is the WS's job to fix this or to walk; I'm sorry, I have a lot of sympathy for some waywards, especially wives, but that sympathy does not extend to "make it the husband's problem to figure out why he wants to try anal after she gave it to the AP". That's too far for me, it's not his problem, it's hers; if she's not up for it with her H but was the AP, it pretty much tells a man everything he needs to know about where he stands in his wife's eyes.

Whats a matter RIO, don't want to sit down with another grown man and explain to him why you want to your wife in A$$? Probably some FOO issues, come back next week and we will discuss further.

Robin, I applaud you for your post, because, you are telling it like it is, and men know it to be true. The willingness of a woman to do sexual things with you, be it kiss you, sleep with you, or have anal sex with you is an excellent measure of how she feels about you, how much she loves you, how much she respects you and admires you. But the BH needs to see a shrink to "get over it" when his wife is telling him, loud and clear, "I loves to POS who I met over drinks one night at a bar and f((ked my a** for an hour straight more than I love you"?

I'm not sure whose posts you've been reading but it's not mine. I don't and have never equated willingness to perform specific sexual acts with love.

I'm not sure whose posts you've been reading but it's not mine. I don't and have never equated willingness to perform specific sexual acts with love.

I think you did, in bold, below:

1. Women should be able to give themselves sexually based on how they feel about their partner, and shouldn't be forced to do anything.

2. A BH shouldn't expect the same sexual treatment as the AP because the acts themselves are theirs to give, and if they don't feel that way about their BH, that is their right.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Women have to right to choose if they perform sexual acts.

And I think you're right, and that's exactly the crux of the problem here. If the WS doesn't "feel that way about their BS", that pretty much tells the entire story.

Because, and I admit this is written as a female, I don't see how it would be enjoyable to do that with her when you know that HE did it first.

And we are saying, to a man, that as a male WE DO want that. That if you don't feel that way about us, we're moving on. Why is this even an argument?

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Women have to right to choose if they perform sexual acts.

@Robin, great, we agree. What I see then, from my perspective, is that my WW was willing to do anything for the exciting chef that could bring her to nice restaurants and get special treatment. But stable old me who worked 40 hours a week and raised a daughter with her gets boring vanilla every time. So, I am a paycheck and a babysitter that she should be able to keep around with reset sex once every few weeks. Sounds delightful.

I chose the divorce instead.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 9:25 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

I have not read all of the other posts but I have read quite a few....its just way too long.

Every individual, whether wayward, betrayed, mad hatter or none of the above, has the right to choose what they do or do not do sexually (and otherwise) every minute of every day. I can chose to not have sex with WH today as he can do also.

What we all have is choices. A WS can choose to not do sexual acts with BS that they did with AP and the BS can choose to start D proceedings as a result. The BS can choose to not have sex ever again with WS and the WS can choose to D. Its all a choice.

We get to choose what we want in our M and if we don't get what we want we can choose to D or we can choose to compromise or we can choose to suck it up and stay in an unfulfilled M if thats what we choose. Our spouses get to do the same.

For me, if my WH had done sexual acts with AP that i wanted to do and he wouldn't with me? I would feel like he was more attracted to AP than me and that he felt closer to AP during A than he ever felt with me and I would have to D. I would never be able to be okay with that. It would be the only choice for me in that instance.

I don't understand how anyone could feel they are successfully in R if they have a WS who refuses to perform a sex act with BS that they performed with AP. I don't see how the BS could ever feel fulfilled and that the WS was trying to make amends.......and on the other hand, I would never want to do a sex act with WS that he didn't want to do.....so there would be only the one option.

I don't and have never equated willingness to perform specific sexual acts with love.

I think we are saying that we do Robin. Right or wrong, nature or nurture, we do feel that way.

I agree. A ws has the absolute right to sleep with whoever they want. And they have a absolute right to not sleep with the bs. And the bs has a absolute right to walk from the relationship. As they have the absolute right to consider their ws not wanting to sleep them a deal breaker

I have not read all of the other posts but I have read quite a few....its just way too long.

Every individual, whether wayward, betrayed, mad hatter or none of the above, has the right to choose what they do or do not do sexually (and otherwise) every minute of every day. I can chose to not have sex with WH today as he can do also.

What we all have is choices. A WS can choose to not do sexual acts with BS that they did with AP and the BS can choose to start D proceedings as a result. The BS can choose to not have sex ever again with WS and the WS can choose to D. Its all a choice.

We get to choose what we want in our M and if we don't get what we want we can choose to D or we can choose to compromise or we can choose to suck it up and stay in an unfulfilled M if thats what we choose. Our spouses get to do the same.

For me, if my WH had done sexual acts with AP that i wanted to do and he wouldn't with me? I would feel like he was more attracted to AP than me and that he felt closer to AP during A than he ever felt with me and I would have to D. I would never be able to be okay with that. It would be the only choice for me in that instance.

I don't understand how anyone could feel they are successfully in R if they have a WS who refuses to perform a sex act with BS that they performed with AP. I don't see how the BS could ever feel fulfilled and that the WS was trying to make amends.......and on the other hand, I would never want to do a sex act with WS that he didn't want to do.....so there would be only the one option.

@deephurt, perfectly said.

I don't see how any of the above is coercion, force, or anything of the sort.

I can't imagine telling a BW that she needs to go to counseling to figure out why transparency or honesty are important to her after her husband cheated. I am not, and will never again be put into a position where I feel like anything less than someone's number one.

Ok I see the issue you're having. Let me clarify my pov:

Women should be free to choose what sexual acts they are happy to perform each and every time they engage in a sexual practise.

Being shamed by their past misdeeds is not a true definition of free to me.

I do not and have never equated particular sexual acts with love.

I hope this clears this up.

What I object to is the demand.

Do it or I divorce isn't a demand, its an option isn't it? And if someone is so willing to throw their whole body at someone they don't even know, but don't want to share half of it with their own Husband, then I don't how to make sense of that. It might be a signal its time to pack and leave.

Women should be free to choose what sexual acts they are happy to perform each and every time they engage in a sexual practise.

Being shamed by their past misdeeds is not a true definition of free to me.

We do not disagree.

In a committed relationship, however, I do equate sex and love. I promise you, if I was able to separate sex and love, my WW's affair wouldn't have been nearly as crippling of an event.

Call me old-fashioned.

Reliant- it’s not an issue he’s having, it’s literally what you said that he was using to point out the obvious contradiction in your assertions, which you have since cleared up.

There is nothing, i repeat simply nothing that can be done, counseling, etc to make a man feel like he wasn’t less desirable than an AP if his wife refuses sex acts with him she gave to the AP. Just is what it is. Either the couple figures out how to heal the BS, based on his needs, then the WS, and the WS has to do the heavy lifting, or the Marriage won’t heal. No amount of counseling will let a BH be happy with his new reality, the only thing that can work is being proven to , in his eyes, that he is number one. End of story. Whether the WW realizes it, and wants to do it, is totally up to her. It may suck that she has to realize what we are sayin here is valid, but it doesn’t mean it’s not a real issue that needs to be addressed.

If a BS isn’t getting what they need out of the marriage, especially after betrayal, they deserve to find Somone who can. Hell, my WW was remorseful and went out of her way, and while I will say it was the best thing she could have done for me to possible take her back, her a was a dealbreaker for me regardless. I now have someone much better suited to me, and vice versa, and I’m sure it kills my ex. But we are all free to make orboen choices. How bad does the WS want to save the marriage? Is it even worth saving? Questions to be pondered

This bothers me. For every woman who is considered a slut, there is a man willing to take advantage of that. Why do we have so many words to describe women we consider of lower moral character but not words for the men?

Even "sluts" are human beings. Some of them have children. Some of them have mental illness. Some of them are no worse than the men enjoying their sluttiness.

I have not used these terms and I don't consider my wife a "slut". I don't even like the term because I don't think women should be shamed for their sexuality, in fact the opposite. I think those men who are expressing these sentiments here are hurt and angry, which I get... completely. I don't think this is a good outlet though.

That said, it does nothing to change my feelings on the issue. I'm not going to force her to do anything. If she really loves me and really wants to R, she will do these things willingly. If she does not want to do these things, then I will perceive it (accurately) as her not valuing me as much as her AP. That is something I will never be able to tolerate. I'm not even sure I can stomach that she did it in the first place at this point (though for me it is much more about the dishonesty, not just during the affair but for most of our life together regarding many of the issues in our relationship, she set me up to fail, made it impossible for me to address our issues, listened to my pain coldly and then turned around and gave her emotional and sexual self to another... and discussed our most intimate [for me anyways, for her it was just more lying to my face] discussions with him)

No. That isn't happening any longer. Call me a caveman if you wish, I'm ok with that.

Just understand that calling me a caveman and trying to argue women's rights ignores the reality that most men will feel the way I do. A WS is free to do with that knowledge as she pleases.

If she is dealing with trauma or became a different person who she doesn't like during the affair, then I hope she can heal herself and regain what she has lost. I can only speak to what I have lost and what I need to get to a point where I can accept that loss and move forward with R with the person who caused it.

For a very long time, years in fact, I resented my WH for all of the emails and texts he sent his OW (and the countless other woman he emailed). See, I'd send him an email and he wouldn't reply. Nothing. I felt a deeper level of betrayal because he had given them what he wouldn't do for me.

I spent so much time fixated on this that I missed for the forest for the trees until one day WH noticed I was pissed off and asked why. I said that I had emailed him and once again he hadn't replied.

He then said the following.

"Why do I need to email you when I am HERE talking to you?"

Light bulb!!!

He hates emailing. For a long time I thought he just hated emailing ME. The truth is he hates it period. (His grammer sucks lol). What he had given them wasnt his true self. He simply emailed to keep them interested with sweet talk.

Him, sitting with me Talking face to face was his genuine self and actually a hell of alot harder IMO. Its also 100% authentic. I know he wants to talk to me, not just doing it because I am demanding it.

I no longer email him. If I want to discuss something I talk to him. I can email him all I want but I know he will never hit reply.

Ok I see the issue you're having. Let me clarify my pov:

Women should be free to choose what sexual acts they are happy to perform each and every time they engage in a sexual practise.

Being shamed by their past misdeeds is not a true definition of free to me.

I do not and have never equated particular sexual acts with love.

I hope this clears this up.

It clears it up, but it says something entirely different than what you said before. And frankly, what you said before rings far more truthful and straightforward than this. I agree with both of those statements, I don't think anyone of us here want's to "shame" our wife into a sex act. That is not the definition of freely given to me, and that is what has been said, over and over, as one of the big stumbling blocks.

However, Robin, you did clearly equate sexual acts with love. And that is exactly how I see it, and how a lot of men here see it. It may not be how you see it, and you just stumbled on your words, but; I find it near impossible to believe that any woman over the age of about 15 doesn't know that men see it that way. Sex, sexual exploration and limits, those are the ways that many men gauge how much a woman "loves" us. And, most of the time, it is true; so, you can see why it's a struggle to suddenly see, after d-day, that our wives "loved" someone else more. Even if it's not true, it feels that way to us, and women, as you pointed out in your original post, often know this intrinsically or actually know and understand it intimately (and for the darker posts, some use this knowledge to control men).

Rideout on this forum we educate each other that love is not part of an affair. using each other, ego kibbles, validation, and low self worth, among other things, are the recipe that makes up an affair.

love is far from it. self love is even further away.

if you understand that then you'll know that what she gave the OM was not love.

nicenomore - modern society norms outweigh biological evolutionary constructs every time. why didn't you murder your WS's AP then? Why don't we kill the guy who ran over our kid?