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I think when your wife has an affair, its hard to not lose a hell of a lot of respect for her. I think its very natural to loath her in many ways afterwards. The rose colored glasses are off. But maybe you have too much invested in the marriage to see walking away as an attractive choice. So, what has occurred is your wife has emasculated you by having random NSA sex with a stranger. Its not very surprising therefor that there is a tendency to want to treat your cheating wife like a disgraceful porn actress since her true colors have been revealed. I think that in itself lends to the disrespect.

Of all the horrible things your wayward wife has exposed to you during her affair and the emotional fallout subsequently, I think the do this or I divorce you is not out of line at all. You have given her a choice. By jumping in bed with another man she already wrecked the marriage, she should be prepared to leave if the new terms aren't to her liking.

did the WW give permission to the AP - you bet, for whatever reason, but I'm guessing it was for validation, not enjoyment.

^^^ agreed. Well said.

so, you need your WW to validate you. well, if you understand that her affair wasn't about you, and you're ok as you are, you don't need fixing, you therefore don't need that external validation.

^^^This. This is why I do not agree with you guys

Not because I'm not sympathetic to your feelings but because validation, happiness, self worth and esteem comes from within. Not whether or not you give it to your wife up the poop shoot.

Apparently it's OK for a WW to give in completely sexually outside of the marriage but it's wrong for a BH to even ask for the same considerations.

I guess there is no point for any BH to consider R. If your wife cheats it's over. You lost to OM. We all should just take those cheating WW's to the cleaners. Get the highest paid D attorney and air all of this dirty laundry publicly so everyone knows why you are getting a D. Leave her broke, alone and just never talk to her again. There is no point in even trying because women just use sex as a weapon and not for love.

Anything else? File for divorce and get it over with. At least you'll still have your integrity and be able to attract a good woman in the future. Because if you follow through and succeed in getting sexual acts that she doesn't want to give you, you'll lose something inside yourself.

I think I agree with you the more I read from women. But, what we're saying here, if it's true, is basically "If you WW has an A, and does something with the OM that's not offered to you, just D and move on". Because, expecting many men (as evidenced in this thread) to just "get over it" isn't going to happen. Expecting women to do what they did with the AP's is akin to rape, and also isn't going to happen. So, if we take those 2 statements and couple it with the fact that some large amount of female A's include sexual acts not offered to the H; we wind up with "If she cheats, just walk out the door" as the defacto standard. Just want to make sure we're putting a clear face on what's being said here, it seems we have two immovable objects colliding, women demand sexual choice for who they share their most intimate selves with (understandable) and men demand their wives show them their most intimate selves (also understandable). I don't see either moving from their position (as shown in this thread), ergo.. Wife cheats, just leave, it's over?

To all the folks struggling to understand or disagreeing with the viewpoints expressed here:

I understand the contentiousness, I really do. Sometimes truths are difficult, hurtful, insensitive feeling, etc. we ALL know this as betrayed spouses.

To the point of lizard brain, alpha vs beta, reclaiming, etc and all negative connotations to the like, I will say this. Evolution and Darwinism are real...millennia of biological precursors and deep seeded instinctual responses are present, and a century of socially dictated changes aren’t going to wipe those away. Objectively, I totally understand, as do most posters here, what is acceptable socially and what isn’t. It’s why my mottos are know your dealbreakers, and you can’t force Anyone to do anything.

But social advent doesn’t outweigh evolution. That’s why the feelings ARE real. Like them or not, what BHs here are saying are real to us. And probably not in the minority. You certainly don’t have to agree with it, and perhaps from the gender divide can’t understand WHY the feelings exist, but, they do.

So you really can’t dismiss the tenure of biological evolution here. You can say it feels wrong, it’s offensive, it’s not compassionate, and I totally understand that. But as a man, I would never feign to understand what it’s like to be a woman. I totally and earnestly concede that, and am certainly sympathetic to female plights. I can only say what I know and feel as a man, and on the other side of the coin, I would say that women don’t understand the behavioral, instinctual and social nuances of the male brain. It’s why we struggle to meet in the middle. I certainly don’t want to write off ANYONES opinion, they are of course, personal and valid. I can only speak to why collectively, I know and feel. And it’s compounded by the masses of other BHs who feel like me.

So again, know your deal breakers. If your WW can’t see why this is important, then R will fail. If the BH can’t accept the reality of the circumstance he is thrown into, R will fail. We are at the end of the day, autonomous, free humans. What’s key here is understanding the WHYs, not forcing a narrative, or an expectation, or equally, rebuking them.

I don’t paint all women as sluts, inferior, evil, sex toys, etc etc. simply not the case, quite the opposite in fact. I don’t have any sort of anti women agenda, or mysongenist viewpoints on women. I advocate for equal rights, and sexual liberation in single people, men or women, and I respect no means no, and my body my choice. I do. At the end of the day, all I can say, is that if a WW gives an uninvested AP sexual excitement and adoration above what I got as a loyal and invested spouse, and can’t work towards making me feel like number one, based on what My needs are, I am free to walk without guilt, and the WW can’t claim to have done everything possible. It’s that simple. This also applies to WH and BW. I am a firm advocate for BWs rights based on what they need as well, and wouldn’t advise a WW to do anything I wouldn’t advise a WH to do. But as a man, I can’t profess to know or you nderstand what a BW needs, besides what is told to me and therefore, I imagine as a woman, one can’t profess to know what a BH needs, besides what is voiced to you, which is what I think folks here are trying to do .

I hope you all have a great day today

Rideitout wrote: I agree. If we want to frame it that way; I absolutely agree, it's a woman's right to decide who she wants to give anal sex to. But if that person isn't her H, and is the AP, don't expect the man to stick around to hear about the rest of the rights you feel are justly yours. You do get to decide, that's what this entire thread is about, just understand what your decision is; it's not "Well, I did with AP, but H doesn't deserve it, and I want to R". No, that's not a "right", that's a choice, and it's a choice that will most likely lead to D.

This bothers me. Are you suggesting that a woman's right to decide who sticks his woohaa inside her to be nothing more than a "feeling." You don't think it should be protected by law? By the church? By society? By parents? Do you have a daughter? Is her right to make that decision nothing more than a feeling?

These little subtle digs are what keep some women in line and under control.

But not all of us.

Joesip, a very good post. Though growing up in the

1960's, graduated HS early 1970's. I would love to

talk about then and flags and rules. But no thread jacks for now.

Yes what you said why a WW did those things for the

OM has been mention many timed before. Though worth

re-mentioning now. Good job.

Are you aware how many BH's have sucked it up and

let it go that their WW is never going to give

them what she gave the OM?

Do you know how many BH trickle truthed for years

before the TT ended and the BH finally learned

the whole truth as to what the OM got?

Do you know how many marriages were recovery

stalled because of the BH not getting what the

OM got?

Where the WW and BH live in a marriage, depending

how early in the affair happened, for ten, twenty,

thirty, forty years, that was in limbo due to

recovery being stalled because the WW cannot get

drunk, use two tubes of lube and let her BH have

anal just one time.

Yes honey I gave the OM anal.

Yes I know that I refused you anal before the

affair.

BH anal is so disgusting to me, but I was not

in my right mind during the affair. If I was in

a good mental state I would over never had an

affair.

Please do not make me relieve that part of the

affair by doing anal.

Though it appears that many WW's do not have this

talk with their BH.

Anything else? File for divorce and get it over with. At least you'll still have your integrity and be able to attract a good woman in the future. Because if you follow through and succeed in getting sexual acts that she doesn't want to give you, you'll lose something inside yourself.

I think I agree with you the more I read from women. But, what we're saying here, if it's true, is basically "If you WW has an A, and does something with the OM that's not offered to you, just D and move on". Because, expecting many men (as evidenced in this thread) to just "get over it" isn't going to happen. Expecting women to do what they did with the AP's is akin to rape, and also isn't going to happen. So, if we take those 2 statements and couple it with the fact that some large amount of female A's include sexual acts not offered to the H; we wind up with "If she cheats, just walk out the door" as the defacto standard. Just want to make sure we're putting a clear face on what's being said here, it seems we have two immovable objects colliding, women demand sexual choice for who they share their most intimate selves with (understandable) and men demand their wives show them their most intimate selves (also understandable). I don't see either moving from their position (as shown in this thread), ergo.. Wife cheats, just leave, it's over?

I think you're taking it much further than intended. I never said a BH shouldn't ask the WW for the same sexual acts. He certainly can and if she's wise, she'll agree or at least promise to work on her healing so that they can in the future. THAT is a healthy approach on both parts.

What I object to is the demand.

Oh, come on, guys, don't you know by now that a little subtle foreplay goes a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG way?

So women are saying it's their right to fuck anyone they want outside of their marriage and do whatever sex acts with that person and then they expect the BH to take them back after they are caught with no conditions or demands.

Sounds more like entitled women doing whatever they want without consequence. If this is how women actually are then men should never ever get married. There is zero incentive. Women will cheat and then try and take your assets and income in a D. Fuck that! I'm not playing that game and marriage is BS.

[This message edited by skins21 at 8:29 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Its not very surprising therefor that there is a tendency to want to treat your cheating wife like a disgraceful porn actress since her true colors have been revealed. I think that in itself lends to the disrespect.

I'm going to disagree with this statement. I've never wanted to "treat my wife like a disgraceful porn actress" to disrespect her. I love her, and I have loved her for a long time before the A, I still wanted to do things that "disgraceful porn actresses" do with her.

I actually kind of have a problem with saying porn actors/actresses are disgraceful. They are making a choice and being compensated for it. Are they disgusting because they sleep with many men? Well, I wouldn't marry one, but it's not because of disgust, it's because I don't think I could deal with the images of what she'd done; it would be my hangup, not her.

Off topic; I've never wanted to do anything to my wife, sex, orgasm in her mouth, anal, bondage, talking dirty.. ANYTHING, because I found her disgraceful and wanted to treat her badly. Porn shows what it shows because men enjoy those acts (and many women do as well, shockingly enough given this thread). Yes, there are subsets of porn that are different, but mainstream porn, that's all about "common fantasies" acted out.

Joesip, a very good post. Though growing up in the

1960's, graduated HS early 1970's. I would love to

talk about then and flags and rules. But no thread jacks for now.

Yes what you said why a WW did those things for the

OM has been mention many timed before. Though worth

re-mentioning now. Good job.

Are you aware how many BH's have sucked it up and

let it go that their WW is never going to give

them what she gave the OM?

Do you know how many BH trickle truthed for years

before the TT ended and the BH finally learned

the whole truth as to what the OM got?

Do you know how many marriages were recovery

stalled because of the BH not getting what the

OM got?

Where the WW and BH live in a marriage, depending

how early in the affair happened, for ten, twenty,

thirty, forty years, that was in limbo due to

recovery being stalled because the WW cannot get

drunk, use two tubes of lube and let her BH have

anal just one time.

Yes honey I gave the OM anal.

Yes I know that I refused you anal before the

affair.

BH anal is so disgusting to me, but I was not

in my right mind during the affair. If I was in

a good mental state I would over never had an

affair.

Please do not make me relieve that part of the

affair by doing anal.

Though it appears that many WW's do not have this

talk with their BH.

I'm not trying to paint people as good or bad or right or wrong, my goal is always to help people find their way out of the pain.

If it's that important to a BH and the WW says no, he has to make a choice whether to stay married or not. Sometimes love just isn't enough.

But to keep banging their heads against the proverbial wall and think something is going to change will simply prolong the agony.

We're all suffering here. But I guess I figure I get to choose which things are worth continuing to suffer for.

I didn't mean to hurt or offend anyone; was just trying to unring a few bells and help maybe someone cut through why they're feeling so badly.

Just a little shining light, I am. :)

Joesip, "This bothers me. Are you suggesting that a woman's right to decide who sticks his woohaa inside her to be nothing more than a "feeling." You don't think it should be protected by law? By the church? By society? By parents? Do you have a daughter? Is her right to make that decision nothing more than a feeling? "

You confuse rights with feelings.

In recovery it is about doing what is legal.

It is about doing right by each other. A WW can

be greatly embarrassed that she did anal. Some

WW take one for the team and give it up to their

BH.

Some can be so mad at their BH still that having

an affair was not enough to punish their BH.

Some WW can tactfully express all the why's as

to them not being able to do anal for their BH.

Helping their BH get past that.

Some just say no.

that was in limbo due to

recovery being stalled because the WW cannot get

drunk, use two tubes of lube and let her BH have

anal just one time.

Why on earth would anyone want to have sex that their partner needs to get drunk and Jack up on lube to get through? That's clearly not sex they are enjoying.

Josie I think you are going into an assumption that people here believe men should be ok with forcing sex. Not the case for me, in the slightest. We all have the freedom of choice and self preservation. At no point have I said WW was a slut and now must take in the ass Because she isn’t worthy of self respect, which I feel is the narrative you think exists here it’s not, at least from me. All I am saying is that, as a BH, if my wife can’t get to the point of understanding and wanting to give me the pleasure she willingly gave another man who isn’t invested as much as I have, I know I deserve better, and am free to leave, and she has no grounds to say she did everything to save the marriage. It’s that simple. And in light of your comment about a narrow viewpoint of our manhood, I have expressed that as a man I have no idea what it’s like to be a woman. What do you know about being a man? Your statement is an assumption, no an anecdotal observation...

Look.. if a BH needs sexual equivalence and passion WANTED by the WW, he just does. Can’t change it, don’t try, telling him to back off that feeling ain’t gonna work. It just is what it is. That DOESNT mean the WW has to aqciesce. It also means that its likely a marital dealbreaker. Is that so hard to understand? People are free to make their own choices, BS and WS alike. All I am trying to convey here is the inner workings of a BH mind, as repulsive as you may find it. But maybe, somewhere, somehow, a WW might see this and have a moment of clarity, a realization of how important these feelings are, and maybe it will help save the marriage, If she is genuinely remorseful, willing AND desirous of her BH.

The exact same advice I would give a WH. Know what your BW needs, and learn to want to deliver, because you LOVE them, or let them walk, and find someone better

But social advent doesn’t outweigh evolution. That’s why the feelings ARE real. Like them or not, what BHs here are saying are real to us. And probably not in the minority. You certainly don’t have to agree with it, and perhaps from the gender divide can’t understand WHY the feelings exist, but, they do.

Everyone in this world has problems. It's how we deal with our problems that makes the difference in people.

People have their feelings. What they do with those feelings is what separates the wheat from the chaff or something like that.

As a female, I fully admit that I can't begin to understand the feelings that BH's have but I can say that, as a human, they'll be better off if they sit down and have an honest conversation with the WW and see if they can work all those issues out. I think it's very important because I can also sort of envision a situation that a BH does a sexual act with the WW that he later realizes he himself wasn't really comfortable doing. It's a tricky situation for sure.

And I think this conversation has been very eye-opening for a lot of people. I know I've learned from it.

Joesip, "This bothers me. Are you suggesting that a woman's right to decide who sticks his woohaa inside her to be nothing more than a "feeling." You don't think it should be protected by law? By the church? By society? By parents? Do you have a daughter? Is her right to make that decision nothing more than a feeling? "

You confuse rights with feelings.

You took it out of context. I was addressing another poster who seemed to refer to rights as a feeling.

[This message edited by josiep at 8:48 AM, February 20th (Tuesday)]

Jesus... seriously?

This is a goddamn clown show.

Robin et al, do you not realize that you are saying...

1. Women should be able to give themselves sexually based on how they feel about their partner, and shouldn't be forced to do anything.

2. A BH shouldn't expect the same sexual treatment as the AP because the acts themselves are theirs to give, and if they don't feel that way about their BH, that is their right.

OK, so your sexual behavior with us is directly linked to how you feel about us, but we shouldn't read anything into the sex acts that we get, because it doesn't reflect on us.

Women't openness sexually is based on how you feel about your partner.

Men here are saying that what you do with us tells us how you feel about us.

How the fuck is anyone surprised that when we are clearly told that our wives... OUR WIVES... felt better about giving something promised only to us to the AP that we are saying that is an unacceptable imbalance going forward.

Forced and coercion because of the threat of divorce? Look at the advice we give here! How do you stop cake-eating. How to you get your W off the fence. It's ALL under threat of divorce.

If a WW or WH doesn't want to meet all of the requirements, be it anal, or a vacation, or buying the B a new llama farm, get out!

EVERYONE JUST GET A DIVORCE, SAVE YOURSELF THE TIME AND TROUBLE OF TORTURING YOURSELF OVER WHAT YOUR WS DID. JUST LEAVE AND FIND A NEW LIFE PARTNER THAT WILL MAKE YOU HAPPY. PEOPLE WHO CHEAT AREN'T WORTHY OF R.

1. Women should be able to give themselves sexually based on how they feel about their partner, and shouldn't be forced to do anything.

2. A BH shouldn't expect the same sexual treatment as the AP because the acts themselves are theirs to give, and if they don't feel that way about their BH, that is their right.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. Women have to right to choose if they perform sexual acts.

nicenomore wrote: Josie I think you are going into an assumption that people here believe men should be ok with forcing sex. Not the case for me, in the slightest. We all have the freedom of choice and self preservation. At no point have I said WW was a slut and now must take in the ass Because she isn’t worthy of self respect, which I feel is the narrative you think exists here it’s not, at least from me. All I am saying is that, as a BH, if my wife can’t get to the point of understanding and wanting to give me the pleasure she willingly gave another man who isn’t invested as much as I have, I know I deserve better, and am free to leave, and she has no grounds to say she did everything to save the marriage. It’s that simple. And in light of your comment about a narrow viewpoint of our manhood, I have expressed that as a man I have no idea what it’s like to be a woman. What do you know about being a man? Your statement is an assumption, no an anecdotal observation...

No, no, no. If I ever get the impression that I thought ANY member of S.I. would force unwanted sex on any woman, let me correct that idea right now.

But some seem to approach the idea that they believe they have the right to demand it or else. Whenever, wherever, as often as they like. I don't think they really mean that but when we're in pain, we sometimes speak more strongly than we might actually believe.

WANTING your WW to get to the point that she loves you again so much that she offers it to you is the right approach. But if a certain sex act is a deal breaker for R, I think the BH should get into counseling or something to find out if he's putting too much importance on it. Maybe he isn't but I think it's worth exploring before divorcing someone he loves. Personally, I think it would be healthier all the way around for the 2 of them to explore new ways that neither of them have done before, make it theirs. Because, and I admit this is written as a female, I don't see how it would be enjoyable to do that with her when you know that HE did it first.