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Mr F. Do you have a game plan if your wife actually sets up the polygraph and passes all of your questions? Of course, the divorce will proceed to its final conclusion regardless. However, if she passes the poly, will you agree to attempt to reconcile?

Honestly, no idea. I am still unsure about the poly. She seems to be very focused on going, no matter what I think about it she still wants to do it. Why would anyone do this just to fail? I don't get it. The divorce will happen no matter what. At the moment I do not plan to R. But it's still a little raw, even though all this was almost a year ago. It still feels very fresh, thanks to her TT. It's just horrible

You mentioned that you didn’t sleep last night. Just wondering, is your wife sleeping like a baby?

She's not, she looks like hell. She told me yesterday that during days it OK, she has a lot to deal with (job, kids) but nights are the worst. She just lies there, alone, and just goes over everything she did to us. I told her I am the same

We watched a movie last night, I don't know why I said yes. We talked about everything and not about us, for a change. She didn't try anything and only asked if it's ok to put her head in my lap, then she fell asleep. I sat there for four hours and just mourned like a little bitch. I don't know why this woman has me so wrapped around her finger after what she did to me. I am just sucker for her.

nekonamidaThank you for your posts. I am still not sure about guilt/regret/remorse. I can probably see all three at any given moment. She tells me all the time that she doesn't want to divorce, but knows that it's not her choice now and will accept anything I will offer. I was threading water a little while back and it was acutally her who put the divorce into motion as a way for us to be able to move forward. She asks me, every day, what I want and acts accordingly. I want space, she gives it to me. I want to talk, we talk. I know she goes back on her promises from time to time, but it's obvious she's hurting too. As for a coming clean thing, I highly doubt that she ever will. That's the problem you are describing in your post. Until she fully lets go of this notion that she hides and lies to protect me or our marriage there will never be a real chance for this to work

And you know, maybe she already did. Maybe I really know everything and she tell the truth. But after all those lies, why would I believe that?

Also, May 4th is the day we go in front of a judge.

Because the R is off the table I said there is no need to poly. I thought you would get out of this situation and not look back. But it seems obvious that being unsure of whether you know the whole truth or not is devouring you. Then you should take it.

I actually think you are in a better place having decided to divorce to divorce rather than using divorce as a tool to reconcile.

However – this does change the playing-field for your wife. To-date she has possibly been going through the divorce process with the hope and belief you two will try to work things out post-divorce. Now you state that’s not on the table.

In divorce the judge is not there to rubber-stamp any agreement that’s placed in front of him. One of his key-roles is to ensure the agreement is within the framework of the law that both parties understand the implications and that the agreement is fair. If he has any reason to question any of the factors, he has the obligation and the power to dismiss the agreement.

This is one of the key reasons I have questioned how “easy” divorce has been portrayed on this thread. Are you basing your divorce agreement on a division of assets and debt that an attorney has put in place and one that covers all the required aspects? Like do you deal with your higher pension-rights and how she is compensated for that (assuming you have been longer on the job-market)? I do not see how a divorce can be gotten without significant cost (refinancing, division of assets, pensions, separation of loans, changing legally joint debt to separate…)

Be quite clear that the agreement you put forth is within the legal framework and that it’s clear your wife has an understanding of its meanings and consequences and that she has had legal representation to understand the agreement. I venture that your worst-case scenario is when the judge questions that and decides that your wife needs a court-appointed attorney.

And yes – this probably applies to your country. Basics in law tend to be similar between countries and the above applies to most US states, Nordic countries (based on having guided a poster from Sweden and a Dane over the years), UK and EU countries (once again – based on experience from posters).

[This message edited by Bigger at 5:20 AM, March 15th (Monday)]

Mr Fibble you (understandably) seem to be arguing two opposing points of view:

One is that you are fairly certain that they had sex on her second visit to his house (even though she maintains they did not and she pulled out of it at the last minute).

The second is she must be telling the truth since why would anyone push so hard for a poly only to fail it.

With regard to the first I think you are sure that the intent to have sex was there when she went to his house and that was pretty bad and so a divorce is what is needed. But as others are saying not knowing for sure (even though you say that you are fairly sure) is tearing you apart.

With regard to the second, maybe she thinks that she can beat the poly. Maybe she wants to see if you go through with it. Who knows.

In any case, I think that you should go ahead with the poly AND prepare for her passing it (not necessarily saying it will give you the truth).

Bigger Our agreement is very fair. My STBXW wants nothing from me, but that won't do. Everything is in line with what should be expected, is agreed on by both sides and signed. So yes, we expect to be done in one session.

Like do you deal with your higher pension-rights and how she is compensated for that (assuming you have been longer on the job-market)?

Not sure what you mean by this. Our pension system has nothing to do with divorce. We both have our own separete pension funds (mandatory state based social security payments), but unfortunately we are one of the first generations who contributes but probably won't see a dime out of it until there is a significant pension reform. There is no way she can touch it. We DO have our own lets say saving accounts to which I contribute the same amount every month, she gets hers I keep mine. But it very insignificant in amount of money there.

This is a minor issue and borders on thread-jacking, but it is relevant to the complexity of divorce. Don’t take this as a reason for inaction or that I am suggesting you don’t divorce. D or R is fine by me as long as you get out of infidelity. I just want you to deal with your situation with as much knowledge and reality as possible. I was fairly certain the pension system you describe would apply in your situation. It’s the most common system in most of Europe:

In most mandated pension systems, you pay a percentage of your wages to a pension. As a married couple in most countries your wages are seen as joint income.

For simplification let’s imagine that since you got married your annual income has been 1000 per year and you pay 5% for your pension. For 10 years you have contributed 500 to your pension. At the same time your wife was home some years because of the children so she has earned an average of 300 x 10 = 3000 x 5% = 150 in her pension. In divorce part of the “fair” settlement is evening this out: 150 + 500 = 650 / 2 = 325. You “lose” 175 of your pension, and it goes from 500 to 325.

This can be done directly (as in transferring pension rights) or it can be done in adjusting division of assets (as in she get’s 60% of house value).

Does this apply to you? I don’t know but here is a quick test you can do right now: Go to the web-site of your pension fund and see when they stop payment. Chances are that if you were to pass away before your spouse then she get’s half your pension for her lifetime. If this is the case, then chances are the judge will want to see this dealt with.

We both have our own separete pension funds (mandatory state based social security payments), but unfortunately we are one of the first generations who contributes but probably won't see a dime out of it until there is a significant pension reform.

Now I can't shake the impression that you're from Poland :-)

Mr F - it’s sounds like you’re truly torn. If mrs F didn’t participate in any type of sexual activity, apart from the making out snd wandering hands, it sounds like you know you will be able to reconcile. However, you sound torn about the possibility of never knowing the entire story, but your gut is now telling you that your wife has come clean.

The only way to be sure is to do a poly. I can’t understand why you are so reluctant to do one. It’s the confirmation you need to move forward with R after the divorce. There’s really no other way, and nothing short of a poly will give you what you need.

So, your reluctant attitude towards the poly baffles me. The only thing I can think of is that you truly want to R, but if the poly comes back that mrs F lied, this isn’t possible. Because you don’t want that potential, you simply don’t want to do the poly.

BiggerThis applies only partialy. That mandatory pension system is not any kind of account tied to my name with an amount saved there. There are no money there, just a promise for a future pension payments based on situation in 30 years. I am pretty sure I won't see much out of it. It sucks, but it's the truth. That's why many people my age started their own pension saving. That's the real money, in my name, that you talk about. We both have about the same amount there (paid mostly by me if you want to be technical) and it is dealt with. I keep mine, she keeps hers and will continue saving there out of her pocket. Hope it cleared it up.

I would rather focus on my way out of infidelity than on technicalities of assets split in my country. I have people to deal with all this.

Now I can't shake the impression that you're from Poland :-)

Nope, and I would rather not say where I am from if you don't mind. You are not that far off, so I guess this system is pretty much the same in all countries around here.

I think he is from Suisse

Once again a partial thread-jack and I promise it will be my last on this issue. I think it’s relevant because it clearly indicates you haven’t thought the legal and financial aspects of divorce through. I mention this because previously on this thread posters have been suggesting divorce as if it’s something you can do and complete online over a coffee and bagel. I am simply questioning that.

I recognize the pension system you are describing and it’s very common in Europe. In my line of work I have dealt with EBS systems for global companies that have to deal with these pension-systems. The promise you get for a pension is based on your contributions. Its not money set aside for you – if you pass away your estate don’t inherit any money from the pension and if you live to be 150 you still get the same amount. It’s basically “insurance” and based on probability and expectations. The math I provided should apply to this situation since contributions to the pension determine the amount of your pension (generally around 60-70% of your wages).

Mr. Flibble you will never know the extent of her deception, and that is just the cold hard truth and the croque a la merde you will be have to eat if you decide to reconcile. The truth is a bottomless rabbit hole of pain and heartbreak, so make sure you want to travel that road before embarking.

I really admire your strength in dealing with all of this! Some other woman out there will be lucky to have you.

Honestly, no idea. I am still unsure about the poly. She seems to be very focused on going, no matter what I think about it she still wants to do it. Why would anyone do this just to fail?

I don't think she wants to fail at a poly, I think she thinks her willingness to take it will soften you up to the point that you WON'T make her take it. Given her history of deception this would not surprise me at all. As for the questions you plan to give her, DO NOT tell them to her ahead of time. She will rehearse her answers. I'm sorry your marriage came to this but she did this.

We watched a movie last night, I don't know why I said yes. We talked about everything and not about us, for a change. She didn't try anything and only asked if it's ok to put her head in my lap, then she fell asleep. I sat there for four hours and just mourned like a little bitch. I don't know why this woman has me so wrapped around her finger after what she did to me. I am just sucker for her.

This what I warned you would happen. It’s worked like three times already, why would now be any different? Is she actively looking up polygraphers and setting up appointments or is it all lip service? How about apartments, is she looking at least?

Here’s a little test you can do. Put a VAR where she spends time away from you and kids. Either car, garage, office/bedroom.....listen to her when she thinks no one is around and compare it to when she’s near you. But do this only if you think you can handle it.

As far as polygraphs go, it really doesn’t matter if knows the questions or not. The answers are either yes or no. She can rehearse all she wants. Theres usually 3 types of questions ask during a poly. Base questions, control questions and the questions the BS wants answered.

Example of Base: Is your name Jessica?

Example of control question: Have you ever thought of being with another person besides your husband?

Base questions are meant to record a response to known truths.

Control questions are carefully worded to illicit a lie.

The examiner compares the response to the BS questions to the Base and Control questions to detect deception.

Dude67I am not afraid of what poly might prove. It would hurt to have my worst fears confirmed, sure, but I would get over it. I am simply not 100% sure I care what would be the result.

The problem is this - she asked me what she can do to make this right besides poly - and nothing came to mind. I take it as a sign it's really over I am afraid.

And I sorry, I understand that all this back and forth with my STBXW must be very maddening for you all to read. You try to guide me and I often just piss all over your advice. But trust me, I try. I beat myself over every little slip I do, but it's hard to be so close to her. She sent me today a list of available appartmens to look at so I will do it tonight. At least a small step forward.

Mr F. I finally see some real clarification from you. Originally, sex was the ultimate deal breaker. This is not the case anymore.

My thought is that the continued lying simply led you to where you are now - the ultimate deal breaker. You can’t get over what the affair itself represents - disrespect, disloyalty, lying, manipulation, and selfishness. This is not the person anymore who you want to spend the rest of your life with. Am I close to hitting the nail on the head?