SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As for separation, I feel like the weight is on me now. I *have* to back off.

yes. stop rewarding her with attention to her absolute nonsense. Let her deal with her feeling alone and in IC. She is not entitled to burden you and hurt you more to make herself feel better. Like others said, it is equivalent to her hitting you for hours and then saying oops sorry, I don't' know why I did that as if that makes it ok. You should start implementing the 180 with her and let her throw her tantrums or whatever she is going to do. Just stop expecting her to be someone she isn't and she cannot be. She is not empathetic. She is not safe. She is not yet ready to reconcile and it is up to you if you want to wait around to see if she changes. But right now, she is not any of those things.

Has she been evaluated by an actual Psychiatrist?
Has she been evaluated for ADHD, ADD?
She has some really bad coping skills, and you two together are a toxic brew right now.

I do think her impulsivity of drinking, buying, and even her A could somewhat be explained by having poor impulse control, which is the number one issue with adults w/ ADHD that is not well managed/controlled.

I do think you need to learn to put up a stop sign, and the second she spirals to negative, or blame you need to get up and walk away.

I do think that expecting her to want sex just because you had a 90 minute discussion that was positive is unrealistic, and unhealthy.

you said: What I *clearly* missed was that she was simply wearing a mask to get through that second half of the conversation once she recognized that her real self was scaring the shit out of me.

masks ... right. you likely both scare the shit out of each other.

"Here too it’s masquerade, I find:
As everywhere, the dance of mind.
I grasped a lovely masked procession,
And caught things from a horror show…
I’d gladly settle for a false impression,
If it would last a little longer, though."

― Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

she's deeply unwell right now and I can't do anything about it.

Yes, this realization is going to help you.

Deeply unwell is exactly right. That is not at all to bash your wife. The reason I have taken an interest is because in some ways everything you say is like reading about myself during that time. It was so frustrating at the time because part of me knew it but part of me didn’t. The part that didn’t had me pointing fingers. The part that knew would cause the spiraling out of sheer panic. I did not have mental health issues prior to this period of my life. I started making a lot of progress in month 6 but not before there was so much more damage to my poor husband.

Keep in mind I don’t blame my mental health issues for my affair. I still knew better and have full accountability for my very concious decisions. I would not take that route either. I think my husband got to where he was stuffing his feelings because he thought I was so fragile. That is a pitfall I don’t want you to fall into either.

It’s interesting to go back and view that time with different eyes.

Just as you are coming to grips with how dire the situation is, so is she. I am rooting for you both as I know you are just in different kinds of pain.

Tushnurse made some observations that I think are worthy of exploring.

I will leave you with one more observation. You mentioned how prior to the affair your lives were a lot more separate. You were involved in a lot of things independently from the relationship. I would think about if this trauma has caused to to fear going in that direction again, and if so you maybe harboring some hidden feelings where you are blaming yourself for her affair. That is something to maybe explore further in IC.

The more fear and blaming yourself can trace the better you will be at nipping it in the bud. I too had those issues after my husbands affair. In my case it was even harder to put those blaming feelings away because I am after all the one who blew up our marriage. I have long since resolved that by reconciling the notion that there is always another better answer than cheating. And if I truly had gained the deep belief that cheating is abusive, then it’s always the case.

Hopefully after you have had more time to practice the detachment things will start to feel a bit calmer. But know this - with every perceived failure you will get more clarity. Figuring out what works and what doesn’t is a really hard process. Nothing prepares us for this shit.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:30 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]

Now imagine that going forward for a looooong time, if not forever.

Imagine how this behavior of hers generalized to the rest of your life - even if you weren't aware of it.

***

She begged the AP for anal sex. For you she is making that her sexual line in the sand. That is her body and her right. You decide what that really means.

Your right is to decide whether any of this behavior is acceptable.

By the way, you are allowed, despite what some may express to you, to require whatever you want, emotionally, sexually, or otherwise in your relationships. This was always true, not just after an affair.

I can require anything I like, but after last night, I am clear that my wife can't do much of anything for me right now. I have to decide if I can tolerate waiting around for her to figure herself out or not.

It’s not failing - I think it’s learning how to respond in this new reality. You have counted on her in many ways for many years. It becomes automatic, and it feels unnatural to do otherwise. At first, I felt like I was abandoning my husband/my marriage, but really, he had abandoned me and our old marriage, and I was abandoning myself by reacting to his choices instead of acting on my choices.

You can’t save her, as much as you wish you could. I get it…. I know how utterly sad that is. You can save you.

That's exactly how I felt last night--every instinct was to stand up and walk away from her, but I've always felt strongly that is the worst thing one can do during an argument--it's expressing that the other person just doesn't matter to you. To change my thinking and walk away to *help* her is a bit strange for me.

yes. stop rewarding her with attention to her absolute nonsense. Let her deal with her feeling alone and in IC. She is not entitled to burden you and hurt you more to make herself feel better. Like others said, it is equivalent to her hitting you for hours and then saying oops sorry, I don't' know why I did that as if that makes it ok. You should start implementing the 180 with her and let her throw her tantrums or whatever she is going to do. Just stop expecting her to be someone she isn't and she cannot be. She is not empathetic. She is not safe. She is not yet ready to reconcile and it is up to you if you want to wait around to see if she changes. But right now, she is not any of those things.

I am going to try my hardest to back off. I need to find the right tone to do that--I don't want to be rude and cold, but I also need to detach as emotional support for her.

Has she been evaluated by an actual Psychiatrist? Has she been evaluated for ADHD, ADD?

No, I think that would terrify her and she would get VERY defensive if I suggested it. She is seeing a psychologist now as her IC (my recommendation after she changed from her first IC).

She has some really bad coping skills, and you two together are a toxic brew right now.

I do think her impulsivity of drinking, buying, and even her A could somewhat be explained by having poor impulse control, which is the number one issue with adults w/ ADHD that is not well managed/controlled.

She agrees that her drinking, spending and the A were impulsive and coping mechanisms for her depression and anxiety. She sad exactly that last night about alcohol--she feels like everything she does to get by has been taken from her. She can't spend, she cant get validation from her AP, she can't drink, etc. It's why she became so defensive about wanting to drink again--she feels like she needs something in her life to get her through the day.

Seeing her frame it like that was frightening and it made me realize how crazy it is that I never saw how bad she was before DDay.

((Doc)

That is an akward one arm with one pat on the back hug that last exactly 5 seconds.

I am sorry you are hurting. Sex was a complete and utter disaster for both of us during our R. We negotiated a way we could do it, but I did not listen to folks on here that know better.

One thing that I did discover (and you may have too) is that while I wanted a release I did not feel good about myself afterwards. It was either akward or that I felt I was betraying myself. I would decline the next time it is offered. I eventually had to stop any physical contact with my wife. She was my biggest trigger.

I echo what HO said. You need to detach from this toxic dynamic ASAP. You need her to give her time to pull her head out pf her ass. If you keep enabling her behavior she has no incentive to change.

A WW that is still blaming you for her Affair is not someone you should be engauging with. Next time she wants to talk to you tell her that it is best that she use her IC. She takes you for granted and her behavior last night was abuse.

She is not remorseful, she still likes to play victim and she is going through the motions to appear to change. She doesn't want change because she will have to admit that in all of this she is the perpatrator not the victim.

Her point about feeling bad that her A ruined her childs graduation. . .that is what she was focusing on? Wow.

I've said this before and I've seen it in my own situation. Most foggy, blameshifty, toxic WWs do not find incentive to change until they hit rock bottom. You've been keeping her from that by engaging with her.

Stop engaging her. Civily decline if she asks to talk. When she asks why just be honedt. The conversations are helping her continue to avoid consequences and all they do is hurt you.

At one point in our R we had a kid and finances only rule. No A conversations, no more making you feel inadequete or selfish. Talk to IC or MC. That is it.

I know you don't want to hear this, but I think you need to see an attorney about a legal seperation. You can't heal while living with your abuser. At a bare minimum you need some boundaries with her.

Any time she begins to feel she can come talk to you becuase you are always available. She needs to sit with her bad feelings. Her choices earned her those and she needs to grow up and face them like an adult. She doesn't need to keep bringing you down with her.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh and it is intended to help you detach from her. Respect yourself to say enough is enough. Put distance between you and your wife. Stop being an emotional outlet and being vulnerable with her. She only seems to engage with you to feel better about herself.

If you want to heal stop looking to your wife and start looking in the mirror.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 6:46 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]

I do think that expecting her to want sex just because you had a 90 minute discussion that was positive is unrealistic, and unhealthy.

This. Dr. S. both of you own part of last nights failure. She came home pretty raw and unsettled and then spiraled out of control. No matter how good the last 90 minutes were sex was probably a step too far at the time. You both are going to make a shit ton of mistakes over the next few years even if your M survives this. You both need to figure out how to learn from those mistakes and do better. You both need to focus on the positive progress as much as possible. She has a lot more corrections to make, but that doesn't discount there are going to be times that you do also.

[This message edited by grubs at 6:56 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]

Yes, this realization is going to help you.

Deeply unwell is exactly right. That is not at all to bash your wife. The reason I have taken an interest is because in some ways everything you say is like reading about myself during that time. It was so frustrating at the time because part of me knew it but part of me didn’t. The part that didn’t had me pointing fingers. The part that knew would cause the spiraling out of sheer panic. I did not have mental health issues prior to this period of my life. I started making a lot of progress in month 6 but not before there was so much more damage to my poor husband.

Keep in mind I don’t blame my mental health issues for my affair. I still knew better and have full accountability for my very concious decisions. I would not take that route either. I think my husband got to where he was stuffing his feelings because he thought I was so fragile. That is a pitfall I don’t want you to fall into either.

It’s interesting to go back and view that time with different eyes.

Just as you are coming to grips with how dire the situation is, so is she. I am rooting for you both as I know you are just in different kinds of pain.

Tushnurse made some observations that I think are worthy of exploring.

I will leave you with one more observation. You mentioned how prior to the affair your lives were a lot more separate. You were involved in a lot of things independently from the relationship. I would think about if this trauma has caused to to fear going in that direction again, and if so you maybe harboring some hidden feelings where you are blaming yourself for her affair. That is something to maybe explore further in IC.

The more fear and blaming yourself can trace the better you will be at nipping it in the bud. I too had those issues after my husbands affair. In my case it was even harder to put those blaming feelings away because I am after all the one who blew up our marriage. I have long since resolved that by reconciling the notion that there is always another better answer than cheating. And if I truly had gained the deep belief that cheating is abusive, then it’s always the case.

Hopefully after you have had more time to practice the detachment things will start to feel a bit calmer. But know this - with every perceived failure you will get more clarity. Figuring out what works and what doesn’t is a really hard process. Nothing prepares us for this shit.

Thank you again--I really value your posts. My wife has read several of them and has told me she relates entirely to what you're writing.

With regard to separate lives, it's difficult to explain. My wife was very often disengaged in mixed company--she had no desire/interest/knowledge to discuss current events or politics, so often she'd sit on the outskirts of conversations rather than chime in with an uninformed opinion.

And then when we were alone, we wouldn't discuss those things either--we just enjoyed being around each other and raising our children--I'd frame it that we had a very simple life together. We almost never argued--and I learned that was because she would smile and nod with me and then turn around and tell everyone else in her life that she hated me.

I was oblivious to all of it though and that's partially what makes this moment so difficult for me. The marriage was never bad for me (other than sex). I was living with a very depressed and unhappy person and I had no idea--she seemed largely very pleasant to be around. I look at everything now and I see her as deeply troubled, but even though she clearly disagrees, her issues were with herself, not me. My thinking is she'll eventually figure that out (as you said you did). But it also occurs to me I could be at the start of a very dark path both with her and for myself. I've seen how all-consuming and toxic mental disorders can be and I don't want to be sucked into that black hole.

Today has really been eye-opening for me to realize the gravity of the situation I'm in now.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 7:30 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]

Next time she wants to talk to you tell her that it is best that she use her IC. She takes you for granted and her behavior last night was abuse.

N&D, thank you for the post. The above is my key takeaway right now and I'm going to put it into practice immediately.

you said: I don't want to separate right now, but I also recognize that things are really fucked up. My plan is to give her more alone space and keep pushing for her to do more IC sessions. I'm certain nothing she did last night was intended to be malicious. She is just *incapable* of empathy. If I felt for a second it was intentional cruelty, I'd file for D today--but I see us both as broken people. Her far more so than me, but in my current state, I can't do much to help her.

I do plan on addressing how awful she made me feel and how that's unacceptable. Ultimately, I recognize that it's difficult for sex to be light and fun after these long conversations, but I need her to do more to stop making me feel so horrible.

yikes. ^ this is all too much-- this helpless act.

you don't think it's malicious, yet it's unacceptable how she made you feel (but you just said it wasn't malicious!). you need her to do more to stop making you feel so horrible (but admit that you do not believe it is intentional cruelty).

here's a clue-- quit making it intentional! quit talking in circles! get help from a professional!

additionally, if you "recognize that it's difficult for sex to be light and fun," quit expecting it to be light and fun!

remove your own mask and see your truth. you are responsible for how you feel about yourself. your wife cannot grow new skin (or a new brain) for your intensely tormented, broken, human self (that's how you want this forum to view you, right?).

i'm having a hard time figuring out how what you are doing is not considered "weaponizing sex"? nothing, and i mean nothing that your wife does in the bedroom leads to any satisfaction or gratitude from you. she doesn't offer at the right moment, she isn't wet enough, her boobs hurt, she looked at you funny, she climbed on you funny, she cried out slightly in pain, there was an awkward moment when she grimaced, she used her hand, she didn't use her hand, she didn't want oral, she didn't offer a bj, she doesn't want anal, she does want anal, she wants whatever you want, but she's too stupid to know what you want, you don't want to help her get wet with lube, she's ruined porn for you. and on, and on, and on.

if you do not have it within yourself to help her in any capacity, own that fact and set her free (in doing that, i realize you'd have to give up the current "on demand sex-make me feel good about myself-do more for me" gig that you seem to believe you've currently got going for you).

she had an intense, highly deceptive affair-- and you are now intensely, and highly deprived sexually because of it. (speaking in your terms). noted.

and as much as you likely find this response intensely and highly disagreeable, i will not apologize for speaking up for a wayward wife that i feel is now being sexually taken advantage of within her own marriage.

yes, please do give her space.

[This message edited by sundance at 8:40 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]

She agrees that her drinking, spending and the A were impulsive and coping mechanisms for her depression and anxiety. She sad exactly that last night about alcohol--she feels like everything she does to get by has been taken from her. She can't spend, she cant get validation from her AP, she can't drink, etc.

Did your WW say the highlighted part or is that just your assumption of one of the things she views as something taken away from her?

If those are her words...while we BSs want honesty...that to me shows that there is some affair fog there.

Maybe I'm just nitpicking, sometimes the wrong words are spoken at the wrong time with no deeper meaning.

[This message edited by LostOpportunities20 at 8:50 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]

Did your WW say the highlighted part or is that just your assumption of one of the things she views as something taken away from her?

I think I added the "validation" part. If I recall correctly, she just listed out the things she was using to cope with her depression: spending, drinking and the affair. She felt like she now has no coping mechanism and that's why she felt a glass of alcohol was reasonable so she at least has something right now.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:59 PM, Tuesday, June 14th]

I hope your IC session goes well tomorrow, and hopefully your therapist will be able to support you through the multiple layers of trauma you’ve experienced. Betrayal causes attachment injuries, as well as sexual, emotional, and psychological injuries. You’re writing out raw thoughts and feelings here, and as you move through the process, your thoughts and feelings will keep changing, which you already know because each day brings new insights. This is a good time to practice walking away from defensiveness. It can take some time to find the energy you need to gain clarity and figure out a plan for yourself. You’re getting there, DrS.

She felt like she now has no coping mechanism and that's why she felt a glass of alcohol was reasonable so she at least has something right now.

I hope she has ic with a true doctor and substance abuse is discussed. This is quite scary and serious that she was unable to stop drinking even for a few days and had an excuse and justification ready.

I hope she has ic with a true doctor and substance abuse is discussed. This is quite scary and serious that she was unable to stop drinking even for a few days and had an excuse and justification ready.

Terrifying. I keep replaying last night in my head and it’s worse upon each reflection. There were so many red flags it was difficult to keep up with them in real time.

Doctor:
Have you both broached the subject, "I know you want out of this marraige you just do not know how to tell me. It is OK I will survive. You are free to understand that now I get it. You were willing to throw your whole heart into a loveless affair. It was just sex to you but you were more avaiable to the AP thn me. You have what you have always wanted. Let's start talking about seperation and divorce." You seem to go around in circles trying to get in her head. It may be time for you both to move on. Make sure she understands her wish not yours has come through.

I couldn't agree with Sundance more. I'm a BW and I have no respect for cheaters. I don't respect what she did. But there is no way for her (or possibly anyone else) to make you happy at this point. It must be very degrading for her to keep trying only to be critiqued on it's lack of perfection time and time again. But you don't see any of that. You want her to anticipate your every need and mood, while you don't do any of the above in return. How is that intimacy? Where is your empathy when she's crying. Where is your empathy when she confesses to you after much introspection that she (and her counselor) thinks she suffered from depression. I've been there. It's a hard thing to admit. And your response was "I've been more depressed than you," Seriously?

You are trying to mould someone you married into something they are not and can probably never be. No one gets to create their perfect mate. She's a separate human being whether she screwed up or not. I too think you are staying in this because you don't want to give up sex on demand, when, how many times, where and how you want it. The more you want the more she tries to deliver and then you move on to the next imperfection. I don't think it has anything to do with love on your part at this point. It's about being right.

What makes great sex is two people who deeply love each other expressing it. It's a two way street. I doubt she had this level of perfection you expect when you married her. And yet you did marry her. If you don't like what you bought, move on. Expecting her to become a Stepford Wife is unreasonable.

remove your own mask and see your truth. you are responsible for how you feel about yourself.

Yes!

She needs to work on her self-esteem and issues.

You need to work on your self-esteem and issues.

Then the two of you, as healthier people, need to see if you can build a new M.

Her job is not to fix you. People cannot fix people. We all fix ourselves.

You are trying to mould someone you married into something they are not and can probably never be. No one gets to create their perfect mate. She's a separate human being whether she screwed up or not.

Yep. So if you are unwilling or unable to detach and work on you while she works on herself, then let her go. You'll both be better off.

When you go to IC, maybe tell the therapist, "I feel really bad about myself" and work on that. Instead of the constant focus on your WW. If you D, you'll have to (or should) do the same thing. So work on you now. Stop focusing on the M; focus on your wounds.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:19 AM, Wednesday, June 15th]

Doctor:
Have you both broached the subject, "I know you want out of this marraige you just do not know how to tell me. It is OK I will survive. You are free to understand that now I get it. You were willing to throw your whole heart into a loveless affair. It was just sex to you but you were more avaiable to the AP thn me. You have what you have always wanted. Let's start talking about seperation and divorce." You seem to go around in circles trying to get in her head. It may be time for you both to move on. Make sure she understands her wish not yours has come through.

I have multiple times. She insists all she wants is R with me. I agree it doesn’t make sense.

I couldn't agree with Sundance more…

I’m sorry to hear that, but I wish you well regardless.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:23 AM, Wednesday, June 15th]