I did know you ham gave some requirements and for the most part you have a good list going here. I personally think the sex one is very normal in especially a bh/ww dynamic but for me, and this is just personally, that is a a build a new marriage request, not a requirement see if you want to R.
That seems like a distinction without a difference. My old marriage is dead. In fact, I've even considered D but still moving forward as a BF/GF--because as of now, my wife has proven marriage means nothing to her, so why are we still bound by a contract that only I care about?
The contract question is a question only you can answer as it goes back to your own belief and value system. As for the distinction part, I think it is natural it doesn't have a distinction for you yet. My point of view comes from 5 years of failing/succeeding/failing succeeding.
I can only share how I have come to believe that you separate the process a bit into parts that sisoon often cites as ws heals ws, bs heals bs, together they heal the marriage.
When my husband cheated, my discovery of it was 3 years past my own dday. So, I said, look, I would like to talk about reconciliation in the future. I love you, and I know I would like to spend my life with you if it can be monogamously, happily, and in a better way than what we spent our last couple of decades. I am going to continue to show up and work on myself for that end as it will prepare me for any outcome. But, I am not going to agree to spend a great deal time working on our relationship until you get to a place that you are able and fully willing to do so.
So, I sent him to therapy, gave him some of my thoughts of what I wanted to see, and that's it. I left the rest really for him to figure his shit out. I mean, I wanted to know what he was coming up with but I didn't steer him that much. It's like any addiction or affliction, he could only become what he was willing to become. I was only willing to stick around to see what that was going to be.
I felt like you, I didn't want to separate or live separately. So, that is the conundrum. I called it treading water. We will tread water until I feel like it's worth my effort to work on the relationship. Sex is part of the relationship, so that's why I sorted it as something to consider putting away as a requirement only for the time being. I also believe if she does the other stuff that will start to fix itself anyway.
However, after my dday I didn't have that experience at all that I am suggesting to you. There is a large percentage of BH's here who equate sex and love. I am not saying women don't love sex, or want that to be a requirement of R, but it's definitely shown itself to be a largely (some, not all) male perspective that there is proof of sex acts or quantity of sex being proof of love. I only challenge you on that idea because 1) you report your wife has traditionally seen sex more as transactional. 2) you say she doesn't love the AP, yet report she had a lot more sex or more vigor for him. I am only asking you inspect that.
I am not saying this can't be a requirement that you would like to see now. I am saying consider the quality of that request and how much emphasis you give it over other things.
That being said, my H put the same request to me (though we didn't have a dead bedroom, we were maybe at 1-3 times a week for the last few years prior to my A), and I complied. Greatly mixed results. It helped him for a while, but eventually he went out and started his own affair. We were still having sex almost daily when his affair started. It didn't heal him at all, it temporarily made him feel better. As for me, it lessened my desire for him because I felt like out of all the ways he wanted me to show my love, that's the only one he really chose strongly and he was very focused on it. Also sex on demand when you are depressed, feel horrible about yourself, and half the time are fighting is very difficult. It made it more of a chore and harder for me to get to that place he was wanting to see.
On the other hand, as a remorseful woman at this point, I felt like my difficulty in trying to keep up with this was a small cut compared to ripping his heart out. So, again I have mixed feelings. I can understand that enthusiasm for him and the relationship was all he wanted. At the end of the day it's not really what brought us together. It was when we were at a point that we were vulnerable enough with each other that the connection was restored. It helped when he became more tolerant of affection outside the bedroom. I was so happy as that started to emerge, and it definitely corrected my sex drive with him. Prior that time, I spent a lot of time working on loving him in other ways and I think that's what began the true healing for him.
So, when I say the quality of the request, I don't mean sex isn't included, but I think you should maybe consider the other soft parts that need to be shown. You aren't ready for that because you are not ready (and shouldn't be) to be vulnerable with your wife. It makes you feel temporarily better, but it's not going to provide you back with any security, or trust. This is really why the distinction to me exists that this is a relationship request befitting a couple who are actively reconciling. In order to say I will now work on reconciliation with you, means that you feel things have stabilized enough and she is remorseful. That usually means your connection is starting to flicker on and you are actively working on building a new marriage together. But, again, this is my perspective and you do not have to defend yours. I think this is a common issue especially in the WW/BH arena.
At the same time I know how many bh’s feel about this, including my own. For many you all, there is some belief there is a tie between what we will do sexually and how much is tied to how much we love you.
For most of us ww’s there is no correlation. Sex and libido for us is much more relevant, and all I am trying to say is she likely has a low one right now. I am not asking you to defend your position on it, only providing other ways of looking at it.
I understand she was hornier waking up next to AP than me, hence the eager BJ at the sound of his alarm; I don't understand why she can't be moved to give me a morning BJ at the sound of her alarm because she loves me.
Okay, but why was she hornier with the AP? Because she loved him? No. IF she was in fact hornier with the AP it's because of how she felt about HERSELF. Now, should she have felt great about herself? NO, fuck no. She was out cheating on her husband and family. But, that's the self adulation piece. There was nothing authentic happening to the AP because of him or her feelings about him. I have seen this hang up take down many marriages here over the years.
Again, I am not arguing that you shouldn't have lots of sex, or that you are wrong for wanting that attention and affection from your wife. In fact, I empathize with you more than you could ever tell by what I am saying here. I am just pointing some things out simply because I have seen this perspective can be a pitfall that prolongs the pain and helps very little with the healing.
I am actually a huge proponent to the idea that sex enhances a marriage and connection. So, have the sex and work on things, but maybe your expectation of seeing that sex life blossom to what you are hoping for it to might happen more gradually as your wife comes to better terms with the amount of damage that she has done. I don't think how much she has sex with you or how she has sex with you is indicative of any future result. I sure didn't fuck my husband back into anything that went anywhere.
We discussed the sex requirement a bit earlier today and she said her response to it was that she felt I wanted her to be my whore. That's the lens she sees sex--she thinks her doing a sex act with me degrades her.
I don't think that's what she is saying. I think that is what you are understandably hearing. I am not sure you can hear anything different right now, and that doesn't make anything wrong with you. If she was someone who had shown you nothing but love and had never busted your trust, you might hear her saying a requirement about having sex on demand is demeaning. I can understand that perspective as easily as I understand yours.
I know, I know. She didn't mind the AP demeaning her. But, in that case it was transactional too. She wanted the validation that she was the best thing since sliced bread. Very much the Trick Show Pony thing that Sundance was talking about. I know because I was extremely sexual with the AP in my situation. I have already told you I was having sexual dysfunction at this same time. How do the two things coexist? I wanted the admiration. Your wife is a black hole of need, and she does what she needs to in order to get what she wants. Not because you aren't a great husband, she would be this way in any relationship. However, the good news is that can be fixed a lot of the time if the person is willing to work at building a new framework.
At some point, maybe after some time passes, you will realize this marriage is already gone. In order to create a new one you will have to put that on hold until you see she is truly remorseful and grasping things she can’t yet right now grasp. But what do you do to feel better or more secure? That is the million dollar question that you will find the answer to in time.
The answer that is hard to relate to is you have to find a way that you give yourself that security you are craving. You have to focus almost completely on you. The more you practice the better the oscillation will get because you will have a confidence and love for yourself that she can not penetrate. That is basically the goal but I am not saying you won’t flail and sputter he whole time you are trying to get there. Once you have that, you will see your wife a little more objectively and hopefully by that time she is giving you something different to look at.
All I am trying to say to you is you all can’t rely on each other so well right now for these things. You can not be her healer, and she can not be yours. Comfort, yes. And if sex is a comfort to you then so be it. Just know you are putting a band aid on that right now for yourself but it may feed into some of her core issues. It’s in actuality doing nothing to heal the relationship at this point. If she is amicable with what you are asking then good deal. If she isn’t there may be big issues that she needs to address that make this seem like marital coercion to her. Like possible sexual abuse in her past. She learned sex was transactional from somewhere.
I understand that’s a harsh way of looking at it - we should want to have sex with our spouse and express our love freely in this way. But for women, sex often flows with connection and that’s up and down right now added to her shame and depression. So her desire is going to be as well.
She needs not only to redefine her relationship with sex, but love and what that means as well. Personally, when my h cheated that was most important to me- that he understands what real love is and looks like. But all of this is reconciliation stuff.
Your marriage is at ground zero while a lot of us have been healing for years. No one expects you to be able to apply any of this today. We just keep describing it because it will slowly evolve and you will see it too. It’s nice just to have the roadmap of what you are trying to do. No one comes here knowing how to do this shit, and with the loads of pain heaped on top I certainly understand your responses.
I agree that the marriage is gone and that we both need to heal--the topic at hand now is how she can relax and I can stop being triggered by her various comments and actions. Ideally, we'd both like to avoid separation right now, but I sense we are both gradually becoming more amenable to it if it prevents us from spinning in circles.
You won't relax for some time, you have been traumatized. Your world just blew up. She can't do anything to relax you in any permanent way because you can not trust her. You should both lower your expectations, self-judgment, and just know you are going to be at this for a while. Of course you want to be out of pain, and you want the quickest exit. Nothing does that. Nothing. Time, work, intention, it will come but not tomorrow, not next week, not next month. It will gradually get better though if both of you are dedicated to that as the ideal.
I don't think you have to separate to work it out. But I do think maybe try working on being a bit more detached, maybe read a little bit of the 180 and apply some of it's principles. She seems to be trying on her end, so I wouldn't maybe say go full 180 on her. But, I would say it may help if you can find a way to give each other a little room to work on yourselves. Make a schedule if you have to. A little further down the line, as things become more stable, we put aside a date weekend (our kids are grown so you might have to be more conservative on how much time) where we put everything aside and went and had fun together. This would probably be difficult for the two of you right at the moment, but add that at the earliest opportunity.
This back and forth roller coaster will go on for a while yet. Assuming she throws herself into this (because make no mistake, it's HER that HAS to be doing the heavy lifting), then she will get better at knowing what triggers you and how to comfort you with it. She is not there yet. I don't think she is going to get there faster by separating, though H and I did do a short term in house separation for a short couple of months towards the end of our first year. The reason was because we were ten months in and I wasn't doing what I needed to do. I was spiraling out of shame and kept being defensive and generally still too wrapped up in myself. He had also initially not wanted the details of the affair and I gave them to him around this time so it was like we had a second dday. (I confessed my affair without prompting, so this wasn't trickle truth, but it had the same effect)
Four months in, you both are disoriented. I don't have any advice on how to make that better other than she needs to be going to IC and doing a lot of reading, reflecting, etc. She is going to fail a bunch. Failure means she is trying something new. The only thing I can tell you is it's normal, not indicative of future results. It's a shit sandwich for sure.
Is reconciliation possible? Yes if you both work hard and want it. Right now, all you can gauge is effort. If she gets to the place of remorse this will all be more workable but just like what you are experiencing is natural, her not being there yet is not unnatural either.
I am not questioning your choices or what you want to see. My h’s lost looked pretty much like yours other than I don’t have spending issues. But most of us have addiction and that might be another one your wife has. The same character flaws that cause her to cheat cause her to overspend.
Keep going, you are doing way better at navigating than you think. My posts here were not meant to critique or question- more to provide some food for thought and some spots on the map. I wish both of you the best.
Gauging effort is tricky because I have a tendency to not know what I'm supposed to react to. Am I letting her be too comfortable letting things slide or am I making mountains out of mole hills--I can feel both ways multiple times in the same day. I've never felt so untrusting of my own mind before and she feeds off me--when I'm relaxed, she's bubbly and happy; saying the wrong thing. I feel like both of her extremes are triggering for me.
This is so normal. I know I keep saying that, but what you are saying most of us so relate to. So many of us have all been in this same stage doing these same things.
Here is what I read in "Am I letting her be too comfortable, letting things slide or am I making mountains out of molehills?"
You have to do what feels right to you. This sounds like a punitive/control perspective. And, understandably you are trying to gain some control over this run away train. You can't control what she does really, you can only control what you will or will not tolerate, your boundaries. When H and I were having a fun time together, the next few days he would be distant and moody. I walked on eggshells and racked my brain on what I did wrong when we were having fun together that made him mad at me.
I mean, I really was that clueless.
What was happening was a vulnerability hangover. He needed me to be reminded things weren't okay yet. He needed to put up his armor in fear that I was going to turn around and hurt me again. We would have these glimpses of maybe we do still like each other, maybe this could work. It terrified the fuck out of him.
And, her reaction is also very normal too. I would react to his reaction as if I didn't cause the reaction. I didn't understand his reaction. I didn't know which way to move or what to try. What I had to learn was to be okay with being uncomfortable, that takes some work after a couple decades of marriage where I always felt comfortable with him. After I had figured out how to put my own shame away and show up for him in those moments, we slowly got a bit better. I had to come to some acceptance over what I did and why things were the way they were. I had to stand up as a full grown woman and own that, and show up in those moments. It will take some time for your wife to feel that strong. I wish that was not the case, you do not deserve it to be the case but this is not something that will go away over night.
Right now, it sounds like there is productivity in the spinning. It's a good sign she is in IC, starting to post here (though that will be difficult sometimes when you all are at odds together, I expect to see her at some point starting to post for your benefit, as we have all been in those phases - desperate to win back our BS but having no clue that most of what we have to do is so counter-intuitive to what we think we should do)
I don't know if your wife deserves a second chance, nor does anyone here. I do know (and I think this is what sundance was alluding to when she was saying this is an affair, like any other affair or however she put it) that everything you both are reporting has been said here 1000 times with likely 1000 different results. At this point, I would say you are ahead of the curb in that you seem to feel like you have the details, she is NC with her AP, she is willing to go to IC, she is trying to meet your requirement despite her feelings of trepidation on a few of them, from a very distant anonymous position it looks to me like you are both moving in the right direction.
