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My Wife Had an Intense, Highly Deceptive Affair, Part II

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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 5:52 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

You want a kind, sweet, empathetic wife. You do not have a kind, sweet, empathetic wife.

Of course you shouldn't expect sex when you're partner doesn't want it. But if she was trying to be empathetic and open, there are about a million other ways she could have chosen her words or handled herself. But she doesn't want to. She wants to maintain control and this is a way she does it. She clearly doesnt have the skills to behave any other way.

As far as what do you do about separation, yes she should leave and no you don't have to immediately file or decide. You do have to agree on childcare and the level of contact you want, which should be minimal outside of child care logistics so you can truly have space. Let her find an airbnb. You need space from her so very badly to work out what you really want. Your fear of losing the marriage is keeping you in this limbo.

posts: 271   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8739871
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 6:28 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

Why? Really...why?

How many times have you told her...or reaffirmed...or rereaffirmed (you get the point) what you need for R? She KNOWS what you need for R. Telling her again (or again again) is simply telling her, via actions (or lack of them as it were) that your boundaries aren't really boundaries at all.

Your problem isn't with your establishment of boundaries. Your problem is with the consequences of crossing your boundaries.

I don't think my wife technically broke a requirement last night. The sex issue has been a grey area, which is why I want to clarify it. As for the others, I don't anticipate much need for further conversation.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739877
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farsidejunky ( member #49392) posted at 6:33 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

I don't think my wife technically broke a requirement last night. The sex issue has been a grey area, which is why I want to clarify it. As for the others, I don't anticipate much need for further conversation.

I know you are running on little sleep, but this post is like getting a court case dismissed against someone, who is clearly guilty, due to a technicality.

You ignored everything constructive in the post.

If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.

“Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.”

-Maya Angelou

posts: 606   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2015   ·   location: Tennessee
id 8739879
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 6:36 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

In the first place, she can't heal you; that's work you have to do for yourself. Requiring her to dedicate herself to something she can't ever do is guaranteeing failure. It also takes energy away from the work your W needs to do in IC - heal herself.

I imagine you feel something similar to a big hole inside you caused by her A. She can't fill it up, just as her A, her spending, her drinking, her passive-aggressive stuff, her defensiveness can't fill up the hole she feels inside her (or whatever metaphor she uses).

You won't heal until you take responsibility for yourself and your own healing.

I agree I need to drive my healing, but I disagree that she can't help. I need her to work on her whys better so I can view her as a safe, trustworthy partner again. Her behavior was insane and as long as I see her as the same insane person, I can't live with her.

"address conflict in a timely-manner"

That's a good requirement. I think it's potentially counter-productive to limit it with reasons, because the one you list are not the only negative outcomes of not bringing up issues as soon as they're recognized. Besides, the simpler the requirement, the easier it is to meet.

All the rest of that paragraph is an attempt to control her thinking and feeling. It won't work, and it's not necessary.

Her defensiveness is a big issue and is perhaps the most counter-productive part of our attempt to heal. Her "whataboutism" is also crippling as it prevents us from ever solving one problem and ties all conflict together in a large knot.

I don't understand your negative reaction to your W's comment about her breasts. If they hurt, don't you want to know?

That was my poor explaining from me in that post--no issue with her boobs hurting or telling me lol. The issue was the "ugh" and the "I guess we can..."

Again, nothing about last night was that much of an issue--I was nit-picking to be sure--but anytime we start sex off with a negative tone of any kind it is a flashback to my marriage filled with that. I constantly felt like sex was a bourdon on her and a gift to me. It's going to take a lot of work for her to reverse 15~ years of that and it's a requirement for me to want to be in a relationship with her going forward.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739880
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 6:38 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

You want a kind, sweet, empathetic wife. You do not have a kind, sweet, empathetic wife.

Of course you shouldn't expect sex when you're partner doesn't want it. But if she was trying to be empathetic and open, there are about a million other ways she could have chosen her words or handled herself. But she doesn't want to. She wants to maintain control and this is a way she does it. She clearly doesnt have the skills to behave any other way.

As far as what do you do about separation, yes she should leave and no you don't have to immediately file or decide. You do have to agree on childcare and the level of contact you want, which should be minimal outside of child care logistics so you can truly have space. Let her find an airbnb. You need space from her so very badly to work out what you really want.

I feel like tonight's conversation may lead us down that path potentially, and if so, so be it.

Your fear of losing the marriage is keeping you in this limbo.

I think that was true at the start of this--I'm unsure if it's true now. There's enough good I'm seeing from my wife to keep me paused in limbo. I do need firmer boundaries though as I'm physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted from living like this.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:43 PM, Sunday, June 12th]

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739881
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 6:41 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

I know you are running on little sleep, but this post is like getting a court case dismissed against someone, who is clearly guilty, due to a technicality.

You ignored everything constructive in the post.

If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.

Sorry, I didn't mean for my response to be dismissive--you're right that I'm not fully functioning because of lack of sleep though.

I did read it, understand it, and agree with it. I only was pointing out that last night seemed far from the the final straw, all things considered. I recognize many others would have scrapped this marriage months ago, and perhaps it's just taking me longer to get there than I should. I trust I'll get where I'm supposed to go soon enough though--and I appreciate your posts.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739883
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farsidejunky ( member #49392) posted at 7:03 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

I agree I need to drive my healing, but I disagree that she can't help. I need her to work on her whys better so I can view her as a safe, trustworthy partner again.

Which has NOTHING to do with healing you. Nothing. It may make you feel better about tolerating the intolerable, but you are each your own, autonomous person. This is another example of your codependency misleading you.

Again, nothing about last night was that much of an issue--I was nit-picking to be sure--but anytime we start sex off with a negative tone of any kind it is a flashback to my marriage filled with that. I constantly felt like sex was a bourdon on her and a gift to me. It's going to take a lot of work for her to reverse 15~ years of that and it's a requirement for me to want to be in a relationship with her going forward.

I am pretty hard on you, but you need to know when you are right as well. This is NOT nitpicking.

My current wife and I never experienced infidelity, but we had a several year period where we were sexless and devoid of respect. When I laid down the ultimatum that we either get better or we get divorced, several times after initiation she pulled stunts like this. At first, when I was trying to figure out my own codependency, I still carried through with the sex.

This did two things: By accepting it, it eroded her respect for me, and it devalued my opinion of myself. I mean, really...who accepts sex with someone who isn't enthusiastic about it? It reeks of desperation. And understand that as I say this, I have done it in the past. No longer. If it isn't enthusiastic, I want nothing to do with it, even if it has been a couple of weeks.

The last time I got an unenthusiastic response from her, I had it pretty well figured out. I initiated...she rolled her eyes and said, "Okay, but hurry up." in an exasperated tone. I looked at her, and told her, "No, thank you." She was stunned. "What do you mean, no?" She could not fathom that I would reject her, and reject her I did. I told her that was the last time I would ever accept less that enthusiastic sex from her, and that I would rather do without.

It is not dissimilar to pushing a rope. All it does is curl around and go exactly where it shouldn't. Instead, I flipped the script and started pulling the rope. This exact situation is a microcosm of your entire relationship. Stop trying to push a rope.

“Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.”

-Maya Angelou

posts: 606   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2015   ·   location: Tennessee
id 8739886
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 7:29 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

Which has NOTHING to do with healing you. Nothing. It may make you feel better about tolerating the intolerable, but you are each your own, autonomous person. This is another example of your codependency misleading you.

Can you expand on this?

I'd give this example: If I came home and my wife was watering the lawn with gasoline, I'd have grave concerns for the future of our relationship. I'd need to understand what broke inside her to lead her to take that action. If she told me it was crazy, impulsive behavior and it wouldn't happen again, that would not lead me to feel safe (or my children to feel safe).

My wife has given me a lot of empty answers for her affair (impulsive, needed external validation, etc.), but none of those answers make me feel like she's now cured because none of those answers show me that she understands why she broke. Why was she impulsive? Why did she need external validation? There are a million whys for her that I need HER to answer in the hopes that I feel safe around her. I have no control over that and I know she'll work on that in IC.

I am pretty hard on you, but you need to know when you are right as well. This is NOT nitpicking.

My current wife and I never experienced infidelity, but we had a several year period where we were sexless and devoid of respect. When I laid down the ultimatum that we either get better or we get divorced, several times after initiation she pulled stunts like this. At first, when I was trying to figure out my own codependency, I still carried through with the sex.

This did two things: By accepting it, it eroded her respect for me, and it devalued my opinion of myself. I mean, really...who accepts sex with someone who isn't enthusiastic about it? It reeks of desperation. And understand that as I say this, I have done it in the past. No longer. If it isn't enthusiastic, I want nothing to do with it, even if it has been a couple of weeks.

The last time I got an unenthusiastic response from her, I had it pretty well figured out. I initiated...she rolled her eyes and said, "Okay, but hurry up." in an exasperated tone. I looked at her, and told her, "No, thank you." She was stunned. "What do you mean, no?" She could not fathom that I would reject her, and reject her I did. I told her that was the last time I would ever accept less that enthusiastic sex from her, and that I would rather do without.

It is not dissimilar to pushing a rope. All it does is curl around and go exactly where it shouldn't. Instead, I flipped the script and started pulling the rope. This exact situation is a microcosm of your entire relationship. Stop trying to push a rope.

Well, that's the thing--anytime she does it at the start of sex, I shutdown sex immediately (as I did last night). The issue is throughout our marriage she almost exclusively did it after sex. When we would finish, she'd make a comment to make it clear that she had some form of displeasure in going through with it. And it had nothing to do with her enjoyment of it--she could have multiple orgasms; sex could consist of only oral for her--it didn't matter: she'd feel compelled to make her displeasure known to me.

I'd get pissed off and ask her why she insisted on doing that. She'd apologize. Sometimes we'd have lengthy talks about it. Then she'd do it a week later.

The result was we'd have very little sex because it made me so angry and I felt so rejected. To her, she needed to twist the knife if she was mad about something else I did that day, week or year--her passive aggressive comments were her way of fighting back and effectively hurting me.

I need to move passed all of that and I need her to leave no room for error or misinterpretation in anything she says or does surrounding our sex life.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739888
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Aletheia ( member #79172) posted at 8:38 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

And please don’t feel like you over-stepped with your post. I thought it was insightful to read. Please keep sharing your perspective—it’s valuable.

OK good :)

DR, I’m glad that for the most part your family had a good vacation.

I’m really advocating for you to re read MamaBear’s post b/c she said what I want except she did so intelligently & eloquently.

You two need to separate IMO. I don’t think your wife can work on herself while continuing to currently live together. She’s prioritizing your needs, wants, temperament, and worse, FAILING at it. She needs to put her oxygen mask on first before she can turn to you, to help you and work on the marriage. You’re a distraction and bad reinforcement b/c she’s also shortcoming when it comes to being who you need & want her to be.

For your part, you have much to work on too, and I think you know that, but you’re laser focused on her and her failings. I will admit I cringed reading you fully acknowledge that your wife is not in the mood for sex the week before her period, but want her not to be not in the mood - that has nothing to do with the affair, or her being manipulative, we as individuals have our moods that we can do little to change. I’ll share, the week before my period I’m insatiable. If my partner were low libido, we would not be sexually compatible that week, it’s just how my body and hormones work. I’d be mad af if because my partner felt inconvenienced, termed my biology as me trying to control them.

I’m lucky that I usually can be convinced even when initially not in the mood, however, as people we change, evolve, again, biology, out of our control, and I fully expect a time to come where I don’t want to be touched, and I dread it. In the rare times I’m not down, I despise being pestered, manipulated or guilted for sex. I can’t think of many things I can find to be more irritating and repulsive. The impression I get, again I don’t know you from Adam and I’m really not trying to be unfair to you, that you want your wife to be in the mood when you are, and if she’s not, you get upset. You get upset when she tells you the truth that she’s not in the mood, you get upset if she tries to fake enthusiasm, you get upset when she acquiesces but isn’t enthusiastic enough.

And b/c she cheated you want/expect her to be DTF at your whim and when not in the mood, to be able to fake it well enough that you can’t tell she’s faking it and/or reticent enough that she’s genuinely always happy DTF b/c she cheated. It’s not possible. So she’s destined to fail. And in re to this very specific issue, you’ve seen yourself as a victim and this affair has given you opportunity & license to take advantage/get some revenge in this aspect?

What, other than sex and kids, is currently keeping the marriage together. Love simply isn’t enough. Thus IA with others, you should stop having sex for now. Sex in a marriage is supposed to be like the oil that keeps all the gears moving smoothly. The problem with your marriage is gears are missing, broken, and out of whack. The machine is a barely functional, definitely not productive. Consider taking out the sex and work on the actual structure of the machine, then reintroduce the sex to help it along once you handle the major repairs. I fear, and I sense you fear, that if you take away the sex, you’re afraid to face whether this is even a machine you want to keep running. That you don’t want to face that this may be a machine that’s broken beyond repair, it’s totaled, or maybe it was a machine that never should’ve been assembled. But you have to face it otherwise you and your wife are both just spinning wheels and wasting time.

Time also being an issue b/c you have limited patience and used to using time efficiently. People telling you you are early in the process is probably driving you insane lol. As much as it sucks tho it is a process, that you don’t have complete control over. And in your attempt to save time you’re wasting it. Maybe separate, work on things individually, and then come back together or decide to separate permanently.

posts: 230   ·   registered: Jul. 25th, 2021
id 8739894
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 9:26 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

I will admit I cringed reading you fully acknowledge that your wife is not in the mood for sex the week before her period, but want her not to be not in the mood - that has nothing to do with the affair, or her being manipulative, we as individuals have our moods that we can do little to change.

That was painful for me to read.

On January 4, my wife was about four days days before her period. She met AP in a hotel room and eagerly had sex with him for four hours.

On February 8, my wife had her period. She met AP in his car in a filthy parking garage, gave him a BJ and swallowed his cum with no sexual reciprocation.

On March 2, my wife was again about four days from the start of her period. She met AP in the same disgusting parking garage to give him oral sex and swallow his cum. This time though, to get hers as well, she climbed on top of him and rode his dick to her own orgasm.

I can’t confirm this for you—as I was not present for any of those meetings—but I do not believe she noted her displeasure in committing any of those acts to her AP.

And please don’t misunderstand me, I read your post and understand exactly what you’re trying to convey. I am simply suggesting that you are poorly evaluating my relationship with my wife. She has used sex as a weapon our entire relationship, so reading you frame this as me being some kind of monster using her for sex on demand is not easy for me to comprehend.

You don’t know me from Adam, as you suggest, so I have no reason to assume you’re being purposely cruel—I suspect the failing is on my end for painting such an incomplete picture of my marriage.

Because on the other side—beyond sex and children—my wife and I had a wonderful relationship. We are both deeply affectionate and caring for each other; we greatly enjoy each other’s company; we share similar passions—we both love great food and travel.

You also asked if I was taking this moment in time to press an advantage in crafting a relationship that better suites my desires. I absofuckinglutely am. You said that as though you were pointing out something I should be ashamed of—it’s bizarre to digest.

My wife destroyed my life. Every second I keep R on the table is my gift to her—and I very much believe that. If offering me a handjob when her breasts are sore is a bridge too far for her; well, that’s great news for me because I would then know who my future isn’t with.

I hope this post didn’t come off too strong, but it’s a topic I feel very strongly on. I do appreciate the feedback, but as has happened a few times in my threads, I don’t find this advice particularly actionable for me—and that’s ok. It’s good to read nonetheless.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 9:31 PM, Sunday, June 12th]

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739898
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farsidejunky ( member #49392) posted at 11:30 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

I will try my best to break this down as I am at Chipotle so am without the benefit of a regular keyboard to easily use quotes... smile

I think you are conflating healing yourself with feeling safe within the relationship. They are two separate things, much like you and your wife are separate people.

Your wife can hypothetically make you feel totally safe in the relationship, yet you may never heal from the infidelity. Those are the posters you see here who attempt R for an extended period of time, and their WS moves mountains, only to later realize they can never reconcile. A couple of them have been active on your thread.

Also, you could hypothetically heal from the affair while at the same time seeing your wife further devolve into her wayward tendencies.

So don't make the mistake of thinking your healing and your wife becoming a safe partner are one and the same.

You are responsible for you.

She is responsible for herself.

Assuming responsibility for the other partner is the common hallmark of codependency.

“Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.”

-Maya Angelou

posts: 606   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2015   ·   location: Tennessee
id 8739905
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 11:40 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

I will try my best to break this down as I am at Chipotle so am without the benefit of a regular keyboard to easily use quotes... smile

I think you are conflating healing yourself with feeling safe within the relationship. They are two separate things, much like you and your wife are separate people.

Your wife can hypothetically make you feel totally safe in the relationship, yet you may never heal from the infidelity. Those are the posters you see here who attempt R for an extended period of time, and their WS moves mountains, only to later realize they can never reconcile. A couple of them have been active on your thread.

Also, you could hypothetically heal from the affair while at the same time seeing your wife further devolve into her wayward tendencies.

So don't make the mistake of thinking your healing and your wife becoming a safe partner are one and the same.

You are responsible for you.

She is responsible for herself.

Assuming responsibility for the other partner is the common hallmark of codependency.

I’m fine with that distinction, but it feels like her making me feel safe is of greater importance than my healing right now. Every day I think about her having sex less and less—at least through the view of betrayal. The larger betrayal is her badmouthing me to everyone—that still really hurts and I’m struggling to move passed it. It’s possible that my kink is helping me move passed the sex part faster. I feel like I recognized that right from the start.

All the other pain is related to what I’m expecting from her in a new relationship and wanting to see more of. And I don’t spend a lot of time talking about the badmouthing because I know that’s on me to try to move passed—she has already apologized and seems contrite on it. I plan to discuss it in Ic this week.

As you’ve pointed out, my lack of sleep is also not helping. I recognize that. I feel like I get caught in negative spirals and can’t get out. And my wife just hasn’t been very good at supporting me during them—it often feels like she’s saying and doing the wrong things. I also want to discuss my spirals in IC this week.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739906
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 11:46 PM on Sunday, June 12th, 2022

I can’t think of many things I can find to be more irritating and repulsive. The impression I get, again I don’t know you from Adam and I’m really not trying to be unfair to you, that you want your wife to be in the mood when you are, and if she’s not, you get upset. You get upset when she tells you the truth that she’s not in the mood, you get upset if she tries to fake enthusiasm, you get upset when she acquiesces but isn’t enthusiastic enough.

And b/c she cheated you want/expect her to be DTF at your whim and when not in the mood, to be able to fake it well enough that you can’t tell she’s faking it and/or reticent enough that she’s genuinely always happy DTF b/c she cheated. It’s not possible. So she’s destined to fail. And in re to this very specific issue, you’ve seen yourself as a victim and this affair has given you opportunity & license to take advantage/get some revenge in this aspect?


I am female. I was betrayed (and subsequently divorced). I get what she is saying but in your situation,I could not possibly disagree MORE with this poster. Your wife doesn't have to be in the mood or compliant for what you're asking for. She has to be not cruel. She can't seem to do that. I do not know why this poster decided to focus on this aspect out of everything you have posted as if your wife is a victim here.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 11:47 PM, Sunday, June 12th]

posts: 271   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8739907
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 12:01 AM on Monday, June 13th, 2022

I am female. I was betrayed (and subsequently divorced). I get what she is saying but in your situation,I could not possibly disagree MORE with this poster. Your wife doesn't have to be in the mood or compliant for what you're asking for. She has to be not cruel. She can't seem to do that. I do not know why this poster decided to focus on this aspect out of everything you have posted as if your wife is a victim here.

Clouds, thank you for that. I know you’ve been following my story closely and I always value your posts.

My wife and I were taking briefly about this topic about an hour ago and it felt like we were talking passed each other. I gave my view point and she kept responding: "But our sex life has been mostly so fun these last three months—it’s the one thing that’s been consistently good."

I kept trying to convey that it was her occasional knife twists that were the problem—perhaps she just does them instinctively now because she’s been doing them so long. But each one is a stark reminder of our old, painful sex life.

As you suggest, I just need her to remove all that cruelty. If she can do that, I can make it work. It’s her seeming desire to make me feel like a POS that kills me. At least that’s how it often feels for me, and I recognize that’s largely baggage from our past.

But in this moment, I’d like her to come down on the side of initiating frequently and feigning enthusiasm for sex with me. My ego needs it right now. But in failing that, I’d settle for just gentle rejection—and if she’s feeling so awful that a sex act is beyond possible for her, there are a million ways to go about that without making me feel bad.

And that’s what I want from her—to make me feel good in every way she can: emotionally, mentally and physically. And oppositely, I can’t tolerate her making me feel bad—there’s too much pain in my life right now for her to add onto it in anyway.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:02 AM, Monday, June 13th]

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739909
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 1:09 AM on Monday, June 13th, 2022

At this point, I think the sex part is the part she feels most comfortable with being able to give you and I doubt that she can do even that without some random knife twists. She has a lot of work to do to be the person you need her to be. If you can give her the space and time to figure herself out, do that. You really just need to focus on you and what you need to do for yourself not her. You just need to divine her part as I need her to get here and as long as she keeps moving towards that; however slowly, put a check back now into the future. Give her credit when you can as everyone needs positives to go with the shit they created for themselves.

posts: 1204   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8739912
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Aletheia ( member #79172) posted at 3:14 AM on Monday, June 13th, 2022

And please don’t misunderstand me, I read your post and understand exactly what you’re trying to convey. I am simply suggesting that you are poorly evaluating my relationship with my wife. She has used sex as a weapon our entire relationship, so reading you frame this as me being some kind of monster using her for sex on demand is not easy for me to comprehend.


I absolutely don’t see you as a monster and I’m sorry for my words making you feel that I’m calling you that. In my very first post I said your wife uses sex as her biggest weapon when it comes to men, I’m clear on that. She used it with you, she used it with her AP, and if she doesn’t get her stuff together, she’ll continue to navigate this way in the future with other men. This is where I think we start to creep into "if she did it for AP she should do it for the BH" debate and I’ve been trying, admittedly not very well, to stay outside of that arena. Whether your wife was "happy" to do those things for AP is debatable b/c the only person who should be able to really tell us that is her and frankly she’s not trust worthy to be believed and she’s so screwed up she probably doesn’t really know. Sex is your wife’s tool when it comes to getting what she wants from men. What your wife did with her AP isn’t novel when you look at it from the standpoint that she does things for men to keep their attention. When she thought she was losing the attention of the AP so she upped the anti. When she wanted to be the "winner" out of all the girls for your affections she did what she felt she had to do. She’s willing to do things with you now so you don’t divorce her. It’s the same behavior. Except she slipped up when her boobs was sore and getting her period. She thought she could be given some slack b/c you’ve been having some better days.

You can either continue this transactional relationship that your wife has with all men, or you can work on developing something that’s healthy between the both of you and special to your marriage. Up to you both.


Because on the other side—beyond sex and children—my wife and I had a wonderful relationship. We are both deeply affectionate and caring for each other; we greatly enjoy each other’s company; we share similar passions—we both love great food and travel.


You’ve just described the same relationship I have with my bff’s pet. Yes including the travel. And all of my closest friends. I’m not trying to be a smart alec, I’m serious. Going beyond a typical relationship between two people that love each other, how does the marriage between you and your wife distinguish? You don’t have to be married to your wife to have what you described.


I hope this post didn’t come off too strong


Absolutely not. This is your life and randoms online are making judgments about it. It would be concerning if you were glib. I do think you could be a little less defensive to personal criticism. Again, you’re laser focused on your wife, and she’s done a horrible thing, no doubt about it, and you and your children are victims of that, but your hands aren’t clean. You are also a cheater. I believe this site terms you a "madhatter" And you seem to gloss over that aspect of your marriage. Your marriage was already tender before your wife took a nuclear bomb to it. Your cheating is never acknowledged other than for you to say that you did it and you knew you were wrong to do it, and your wife turned a blind eye to it. And that’s that. I’m saying your marriage has rot in it that’s not just your wife’s rot.

You also asked if I was taking this moment in time to press an advantage in crafting a relationship that better suites my desires.


I did not. I said "re this very specific issue" I was referring to the narrow issue of sex. Not your relationship as a whole. It’s how you interpreted that.


You said that as though you were pointing out something I should be ashamed of—it’s bizarre to digest.


That wasn’t my intention. My use of ("?") meant to convey I was questioning the intent, b/c I don’t know for sure. Consider thinking about why you processed it that way.

My wife destroyed my life. Every second I keep R on the table is my gift to her—and I very much believe that. If offering me a handjob when her breasts are sore is a bridge too far for her; well, that’s great news for me because I would then know who my future isn’t with.


Your wife doesn’t want to give you a handjob when her breasts are too sore and can’t fake genuinely wanting to do so well enough, and she keeps demonstrating to you she’s not going to be what you want her to be, now what? You’re not receptive to work individually on yourselves then reconciling, but I do hope your figure it out. Tbc not advocating you divorce. I’ve definitely arrived at it’s best for you and your wife to stay together for containment purposes. I’m just hoping you can keep the environment well enough that the sickness doesn’t affect your children.

Time is precious and I don’t want to use mine being unhelpful! I’ll refrain from further upsetting you, just wanted to clarify a few things. Good luck.

I do not know why this poster


@ clouds777 you can @ me user name is Aletheia

posts: 230   ·   registered: Jul. 25th, 2021
id 8739919
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sundance ( member #72129) posted at 4:51 AM on Monday, June 13th, 2022

As a former wayward wife, i didn't want my AP or my H (or any man) touching my painful breasts the week prior to my period.

Perhaps your wife wasn't yet at that level of intimacy with her AP to request gentleness from him, or deny his requests.

She may have acted like a trick pony while involved in her A (as some WSs often do/will), but that doesn't mean the circus should continue at home. Especially if the acts are/were not who she really identifies with as being her true self.

Additionally, I highly recommend that you discuss your list of needs for recovery in both MC and IC.

Rusty: You scared?
Linus: You suicidal?
Rusty: Only in the morning.

posts: 127   ·   registered: Nov. 21st, 2019   ·   location: USA
id 8739925
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redrock ( member #21538) posted at 7:38 AM on Monday, June 13th, 2022

We can debate the efficacy of the recent encounter all day. We all have agency over our bodies. I don’t think it’s out of line to ask for what you want / say what you don’t want from your spouse and have a discussion. My husband had serious back issues and was on medication that lowered his sex drive. We had honest, not always easy conversations and found our work around. How can these questions, discussions not devolve into victimhood/entitlement?

In a healthy marriage you have physical intimacy.

The degree, amount and acts are something couples work out together. Each partner deserves to feel desired, and be comfortable showing vulnerability with your partner. We aren’t naturally equipped with the skills to navigate a healthy sexual relationship. It’s learned... for most of us....through trial and error.

Your wives transactionalizing intimate acts has injected toxicity into what should build your closeness and connectivity. Instead, you are served shame and rejection. You must have felt very alone, hurt and confused.

I don’t think you are going to get to far with demands that she be available sexually. That’s the whole point, she is not. Available, empathetic, authentic, vulnerable or generous. At least not now.

I am afraid that you are just going down the same rabbit hole you’ve been in, just a new version. Before she dictated the parameters, now you want to. Are you sure she’s not going to say she felt she had to do a, b and c because of the boundary you set? That’s just more of the same.

You tend to believe you are dealing with a rational partner. Your wife has all her pre A issues plus the fact that it took her time to get in the mindset to have an affair and it’s going to take some time to walk that back, She has a long road ahead.

It is a process. Give yourself a break. Get some sleep. The answers aren’t mined through one persons efforts, Sometimes there are no answers, just acceptance.

It’s easy to say, hard to do. Focus on your own work. You. She’s either going to get on board or not and her actions will show you soon enough. I know you’ve read this hundreds of times now. But it’s going to keep being said because it’s true.

I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

posts: 3482   ·   registered: Nov. 6th, 2008   ·   location: Michigan
id 8739930
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 12:10 PM on Monday, June 13th, 2022

Give her credit when you can as everyone needs positives to go with the shit they created for themselves.

Agreed. She was really awesome on the family vacation and I’ve reiterated that to her frequently this week.

I’ve also tried to enforce that it’s clear to me she’s trying—I agree with our MC: my wife is trying; she’s just not good at this. That’s how I’ve felt all along, so I’m trying to be supportive of the effort she’s putting in.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739936
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 Drstrangelove (original poster member #80134) posted at 12:46 PM on Monday, June 13th, 2022

When she thought she was losing the attention of the AP so she upped the anti. When she wanted to be the "winner" out of all the girls for your affections she did what she felt she had to do. She’s willing to do things with you now so you don’t divorce her. It’s the same behavior. Except she slipped up when her boobs was sore and getting her period. She thought she could be given some slack b/c you’ve been having some better days.

Let’s assume that’s true—does it mean all the physical interactions we’ve had post-DDay have been phony? Her just trying not to lose me? If so, I suppose then I need her to try harder. If not, she’d have been doing them out of love, at which point there’s no reason for her to ever make me feel bad about having sexual desire for her.

You can either continue this transactional relationship that your wife has with all men, or you can work on developing something that’s healthy between the both of you and special to your marriage. Up to you both.

I’m not at a point where I can accept her being sexually available for AP and not me. I can’t imagine ever getting to that point, but time will tell. It’s why I clearly made her sexual availability and removal of sexual negativity a requirement of R. You find that toxic (that’s ok), but it’s still a requirement for me.

You’ve just described the same relationship I have with my bff’s pet. Yes including the travel. And all of my closest friends. I’m not trying to be a smart alec, I’m serious. Going beyond a typical relationship between two people that love each other, how does the marriage between you and your wife distinguish? You don’t have to be married to your wife to have what you described.

Sounds like an awesome pet. What kind of animal is it? I’m assuming a dog, but I’m prepared to be surprised.

I do think you could be a little less defensive to personal criticism.

I’m very aware of how defensive I was to your post—and how defensive I am being now. There is zero-point-zero chance you’re aware of how obnoxious your posts are.

You are also a cheater.

No, I am not. Not by any definition; presumably including yours, but I’m open to you sharing your definition so we can discuss it.

I believe this site terms you a "madhatter" And you seem to gloss over that aspect of your marriage.

Wrong again, but that’s an easy mistake to make once you’ve falsely labeled me a cheater.

I did not. I said "re this very specific issue" I was referring to the narrow issue of sex. Not your relationship as a whole. It’s how you interpreted that.

I *was* referring to the specific issue of sex, which was my primary issue with my old marriage. I am absolutely using this time period to correct that issue before I consider R. I do not want to R into a sexless marriage and I consider this a behavioral change my wife needs to make. I have no doubt she has plenty of behavioral changes she wants of me and I’m open to those as well.

That wasn’t my intention. My use of ("?") meant to convey I was questioning the intent, b/c I don’t know for sure. Consider thinking about why you processed it that way.

Consider thinking about why you posed the question if not to imply your intention.

I’ve definitely arrived at it’s best for you and your wife to stay together for containment purposes. I’m just hoping you can keep the environment well enough that the sickness doesn’t affect your children.

I wonder how that sounded in your head as you wrote it out. I suspect you thought you were standing up for the greater good and that it wasn’t sanctimonious drivel.

Time is precious and I don’t want to use mine being unhelpful! I’ll refrain from further upsetting you, just wanted to clarify a few things. Good luck.

Your absurd post wouldn’t be complete without this send off—*chef’s kiss*. The narcissist in you couldn’t resist letting me know that you’d be leaving this thread. A normal person would just have left—not you! You’re too special to leave unannounced.

Anyway, take care.

Me: BH, 38 (37 at time of A)
Her: WW, 38 (37 at time of A)
A: 9/21 - 3/22 (3 month EA; 3 month PA)
DDay: March 15, 2022
Status: Limbo

posts: 607   ·   registered: Mar. 23rd, 2022
id 8739940
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