SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m guessing that it would have mattered to you if she was not the pursuer. Do you agree?

No, SHE is responsible for protecting the M. I was just pointing out that its not always the men chasing an pursuing. Regardless, she cheated on me, not him.

I suspect that by the time grandma has written the fifth check and is partly motivated to make sure no one finds out, she knows something is wrong. She might be acting out of shame or guilt or borderline blackmail, but she still knows something is wrong. Those are slippery slope situations too, not just one time events. Start small, then go for it all.

No, SHE is responsible for protecting the M. I was just pointing out that its not always the men chasing an pursuing. Regardless, she cheated on me, not him.

Thank you for clarifying, I didn’t mean to come across as speaking for you.

I suspect that by the time grandma has written the fifth check and is partly motivated to make sure no one finds out, she knows something is wrong.

So my EX didn’t know until the 5th time he stuck it in her ass that it was wrong?

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 1:03 AM, Thursday, February 16th]

You’re doing it. You’re victimizing your WW.

I know, it’s because I think she may have been victimized in a sense here. I’m talking to you all to try to test these ideas.

And yes, I have a daughter. Your reply gave me pause. Is it that our love for our children is unconditional? I still love my ExWW, even though she cheated, but not as a wife any longer. Not as daughter-of course. As a friend? If she truly reconciles with herself, yes, as a friend.

Our love for our daughters doesn’t take away their true guilt. It does on the other hand make it almost impossible for us to burn them at the stake. If I can find compassion for my daughter in a situation, then it’s clear that my wife is someone’s daughter too and she should be considered for the same kind of compassion.

Edit: I’m not saying everyone has to R. I’m just trying to understand my reality.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 1:06 AM, Thursday, February 16th]

This certainly has me thinking about my own situation. I cannot and will not give my wife a pass for her immense betrayal. But this further pushes my internal understanding that that mother fucker POSOM intentionally did this and walked her down the path.

I think it is important to consider the question "What if she did?" You are saying that she was lead down a path to cheat. Well, what if she wasn't. What if she chose the path herself. And the gender stereotypes are just that, stereotypes (oversimplifications). He was not lurking in an alley, he reached out. She also reached out to him.

I wanted to believe that my FWH was lead down a path. I truly believed that he would never take that path of his own free will. It was easy to vilify the AP because she lured him with talk at work of her piercings, how many and where. She lured him with talk of how rough she liked sex. She lured him by buying him coffee and then he had to return the favour. She lured him with sexy pictures and skin tight clothes. She offered to pick him up from a friends house when he had been drinking to "go for a drive". She lured him and lead him down the path to cheat. Because he was naive, and couldn't see the trap she was setting for him. She knew he was married. She told him she wanted to kiss him. He didn't know better and got caught up in the excitement.

The moment I asked myself the question "What if he did?" I was able to let go of a small fraction of built up rage for the AP and realize that what FWH did was intentional and he made all the choices for himself. He could have walked away at any time before he crossed that line. But he didn't. He wanted to cross it. He selfishly did exactly what he wanted to. And didn't care who he was hurting in the process. And neither did AP.

Your wife is not the victim. She did exactly what she wanted to with exactly who she wanted to do it with. She is an adult who presumably makes adult decisions every day in her life. She decided to cheat. If she decided not to, she wouldn't have.

Thank you for clarifying, I didn’t mean to come across as speaking for you.

Its all good, I appreciate the debate. But, I have a hard time believing a WS is a victim. My WW had a ONS, she was out of town at a conference drinking at the hotel bar, with a group. They moved the party upstairs to a vendors room. My WW passed out on his bed, everyone eventually left and she woke up with him on top of her, trying to remove her clothes. She stopped him, started crying and left his room. When I found out I told her "he is a predator and he assaulted you", she insisted he didn't and it was consensual. So in my book it was an ONS even without sexual contact, if she consented then she participated in a ONS.

So my EX didn’t know until the 5th time he stuck it in her ass that it was wrong?

I’ve probably used up any credit with you now, sorry about that.
What I would say is that I think my wife didn’t think the first interactions were wrong or dangerous, but sex was already on his mind. So she was walking into a trap. Like grandma with the first letter.

If I can find compassion for my daughter in a situation, then it’s clear that my wife is someone’s daughter too and she should be considered for the same kind of compassion.

Yes. I agree. This is true whether you R or D and compassion is an important part of your dignity and, most importantly, your humility.

Now, should we hate on the AP, or show him compassion? I believe neither. They say that indifference is worse than hate and, it’s healthier for you and your WW.

My WW passed out on his bed, everyone eventually left and she woke up with him on top of her, trying to remove her clothes. She stopped him, started crying and left his room. When I found out I told her "he is a predator and he assaulted you", she insisted he didn't and it was consensual.

If you don’t mind, I’d like to understand this more. The description sounds like rape. It sounds like you also had that initial reaction. From what you’ve said I assume your wife was pursuing this person before the hotel room. But that still doesn’t excuse a person removing clothing from a passed out woman. Isn’t there a distinction there for you?

He could have walked away at any time before he crossed that line. But he didn't. He wanted to cross it. He selfishly did exactly what he wanted to. And didn't care who he was hurting in the process. And neither did AP.

Your wife is not the victim. She did exactly what she wanted to with exactly who she wanted to do it with. She is an adult who presumably makes adult decisions every day in her life. She decided to cheat. If she decided not to, she wouldn't have.

I get this, and I also think it doesn’t factor in what the Milgram experiment is screaming at us. That we act irrationally. That we abdicate our agency to someone else who is willing to lead us. And that is NOT A PASS! But it’s also not murder 1 type behavior. It’s actually every day normal human behavior, which is why it’s so scary.

If you don’t mind, I’d like to understand this more. The description sounds like rape.

He did not touch her sexually but was kissing her and trying to pull at her clothes. She woke up and freaked out, he immediately stopped and helped her back to her room. Nothing happened other than that. I found his W almost 2 years later and the stories matched. I was willing to accept he assaulted her but she insisted he didn’t. I call it a consensual ONS since she claims it wasn’t assault. I was ready to press charges

What I would say is that I think my wife didn’t think the first interactions were wrong or dangerous, but sex was already on his mind. So she was walking into a trap. Like grandma with the first letter.

Lets just say you are right -- your WW intentions were pure and his were not. How on earth do you get from that to -- my wife had an affair and because of his intentions my wife is the victim? There were a million things that happened before that tipping point and a million more things that happened after that tipping point His mind control was that powerful? Or once things were set in motion your wife had lost all control? When did she gain control back? How did she gain control back? Where was all of that before and during the affair?

I’m going to reiterate a point I made in my first post that’s relevant here.

If you insist your wife is a hapless victim who lacks agency, then you have no reason to believe that she will ever be faithful to you in the future.

If you accept this rationale, then you are enabling her. And considering how you mentioned in another post that her family has reinforced the idea that this wasn’t her fault— and that she must’ve had unmet needs— your wife doesn’t seem to have been held responsible for a single thing in her life.

Lets just say you are right -- your WW intentions were pure and his were not. How on earth do you get from that to -- my wife had an affair and because of his intentions my wife is the victim?

Great question. First off, I’ve said this a few times, my wife is not off the hook no matter how this train of thought goes. She’s accountable for her actions. The question here is trying to judge is this murder 1 or manslaughter.

I don’t know that I have the response to this really crystallized, but it has to do with things like the Milgram experiment, and normalization of deviance. There are mechanisms in our minds that short circuit our normal rational thought processes and lead us down paths we would never believe we’d go down in a sane sober moment. And once we start down a wrong path, people are often too ashamed to fess up. Once she had IM’d with him for a week, she was probably already too far in to tell me without losing face. So she didn’t stop it then and now they are on the slippery slope. So she’s now afraid to come clean AND he is lying to her to make himself look safe and attractive and slowly pushing boundaries. It’s an ugly situation. Yes, she could have stopped it dead in its tracks. Once she didn’t do that AND he was predatory, it’s an extremely dangerous situation.

And yes, my wife has character defects and poor boundaries. I believe she needed an intentional push from outside to go this far off the deep end.

I also believe she was giving him the green light earlier at the bar. If I’m going to blame anyone other than her, it’s the so called Bff that didn’t look out for her, left her alone passed out in his room. This same "friend" was the cheerleader when she finally had the courage to have a PA with someone else.

If you insist your wife is a hapless victim who lacks agency, then you have no reason to believe that she will ever be faithful to you in the future.

I can call her a hapless victim or Hitler reincarnate. Either way, she would have to learn and change to become a safe partner. I don’t see why this is worse than forcing myself to believe that the story is different than what it appears to be.

I think many start out post-discovery in the state of mind that they never intended to have an affair. It is one of the common affair types even. My wife was one of these… not actively looking to wreck our life, but she still did.

In watching my wife’s recovery and growth over the past 3 years, it started to not matter that she did not mean to have an affair and instead she focused in on the fact that she did it. No sugar coating - she did it, and she’s had to figure out all of the f’ed ways of thinking that led her to that place.

Does she need to be aware of guys out there who are con artists? Sure… I guess… but this isn’t a financial trx where my wife was conned into thinking it was legitimate deal. In this instance, she was conned into an activity she should have never engaged in with another man. To me, there is no reasonable excuse, and it is not worth clinging onto one ounce of the other man’s failings.

If you accept this rationale, then you are enabling her. And considering how you mentioned in another post that her family has reinforced the idea that this wasn’t her fault— and that she must’ve had unmet needs— your wife doesn’t seem to have been held responsible for a single thing in her life.

I think you are over reaching on the "never held accountable" piece, but she was the princess of the family.

I have told her that some major things need to change for us to R. I’ve published that list on here. She has big personal growth that she needs to figure out to retain me as a husband. I am not enabling her in this. I am trying to figure out the world of infidelity, one I had no idea about before it crashed into me. If something like 20% of people are having affairs in their life time, then there are some human psychology dynamics that must be firmly in play. I’m trying to understand that.

I don’t see the gender differences. My WW was getting a payoff in her A’s. She was not a victim she was a willing participant. I think the AP mostly wanted sex and my WW wanted someone to tell her she’s pretty, and a great person.