SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

OK, let’s take you at your word. Your wife is an immature, impulsive, easily persuadable child who just needs to be at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong guy to end up on her back.

What does that say about the prospects of your future with such a woman?

People who experience trauma, particularly childhood sexual trauma, tend to stop emotionally maturing. That is my understanding anyway. So your description is a fairly harsh telling of that. If it’s true, she has to attack that in her work.

If turning your wife into an adulter was OMs fault, then OM turning into a predator is someone else's or something else's fault. May be he was raised in a broken family that made him what he is today. May be he was cheated on when he was young and that turned his mind. May be his behavior was validated by other women. May it's the movies, culture, or friends etc etc. He wasn't born like this. He developed this personality when he grew up. I don't think he chose this lifestyle with the intent of 'let's be evil and destroy people'. No. He pursued a lifestyle for his own pleasure and that destroyed people around it. He was so into it that he just couldn't see or feel how destroyed other people are. And since he was never caught before or faced punishment, he continued this disastrous path.If you see it in this way then you can sympathize with OM too.

This is all true. He came from a broken home, he was abused, he was cheated on. At least that is what he told my wife, maybe they are all lies, doesn’t really matter. I suspect he didn’t grow up with a perfect life. Hurt people hurt people. I have tested my heart to see if I can have any sympathy for POSOM. I can’t yet. But I do occasionally pray for him, as he is my enemy and that is what Jesus said to do. And that is hard.

IIRC, her affair was 3 or 4 years?

Here is what I think I know about it. It was about 8 months of EA, consumated into a PA that was intense for a few months and wound down in intensity for about a year, and then she tried to cut it off for about 2 years and be "just friends" before she ultimately confessed.

I am really confused after reading all of your posts here. What are trying to tell here regarding your wife, AP and affair? Are you saying that AP is bigger evil and your wife is lesser? Or AP is evil but your wife a good person with flawed character? Also, explain me what this all means for healing and reconciliation.

All fair questions, and I’m on my journey right now. But I will say that as I stated about Waited’s narrative, I have to come up with one too. And I could copy and paste his and decide to walk, but I’m not going to do that. I have to put together a narrative that helps me decide to R or to D. I’m in construction right now. I was told to abandon the idea that my wife was tricked into this as it was just my KISA coming into play. I’m questioning that again based off new information.

Ok, so what are our motivations on this site? To virtue signal like the best of them and hold on to our righteous anger?

As in most of life moderation is the best route. I don't fully recall your story, but even if he was a predator, and they are out there, it is not helpful to your wife and you to focus on that. Even if he skillfully seduced her, in the end she allowed it to happen and went along willingly. To you and your family's detriment. The focus should always be on that, because he won't be the only predator she'll come across. She's broken enough that you know she is susceptible to having affairs because she already has done so. That's the only thing that matters and where your focus as a couple should be on fixing if you are to reconcile.

People who experience trauma, particularly childhood sexual trauma, tend to stop emotionally maturing. That is my understanding anyway. So your description is a fairly harsh telling of that. If it’s true, she has to attack that in her work.

There are a lot of people who are sexually abused (many of them who are BSs on this site) don't go on to cheat on their spouses and are fully functioning, responsible adults. The vast majority would never dream of inflicting the pain of betrayal on other people. So while being a victim of CSA might be a big part of explaining the "why" she was attracted to OM and developed certain coping mechanisms, it doesn't explain nor justify her choices.

Furthermore, in my opinion, not making her take full responsibility for her choice to have an affair is keeping her stunted. Instead of empowering her to grow, change, and take ownership of her body and her choices, you're reinforcing the idea that she is and will always be the victimized child she used to be. At this point, she has no incentive to do the work, especially when she knows you're not going anywhere and that your ire is primarily directed at OM.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:08 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

Even if he skillfully seduced her, in the end she allowed it to happen and went along willingly. To you and your family's detriment. The focus should always be on that, because he won't be the only predator she'll come across. She's broken enough that you know she is susceptible to having affairs because she already has done so. That's the only thing that matters and where your focus as a couple should be on fixing if you are to reconcile.

I agree with all this. I still think these questions are relevant in the decision to R or D and in identifying the nature of the work to be done to become safe. If it isn’t already known/clear, I’m an engineer. One of the worst things you can do when you run into a problem is misdiagnose the root cause of the problem. You’ll spend a bunch of time changing something that doesn’t resolve the problem. If she is naive and immature, then so be it, let’s address that. And if she got lured into something vs running head first after it, that matters to me in my R/D decision. It isn’t the whole thing, but a factor.

There are a lot of people who are sexually abused (many of them who are BSs on this site) don't go on to cheat on their spouses and are fully functioning, responsible adults. The vast majority would never dream of inflicting the pain of betrayal on other people. So while being a victim of CSA might be a big part of explaining the "why" she was attracted to OM and developed certain coping mechanisms, it doesn't explain nor justify her choices.

There are a lot of teenage drivers who don’t die, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t risky. There is randomness in the world and just because it doesn’t happen to everyone doesn’t mean they aren’t correlated. It’s a risk factor.

Furthermore, in my opinion, not making her take full responsibility for her choice to have an affair is keeping her stunted. Instead of empowering her to grow, change, and take ownership of her body and her choices, you're reinforcing the idea that she is and will always be the victimized child she used to be. At this point, she has no incentive to do the work, especially when she knows you're not going anywhere and that your ire is primarily directed at OM.

And this is a statement of the community beliefs of this site. I respect them, I respect you all, I genuinely do, I hope you see it in my writing. But I’m not 100% convinced of this, with my experience with my father as the reason why. I hear the allure of this logic. TOUGH ON CRIME! It gets the votes. But it isn’t a guarantee of good outcomes and it may be an axe where a scalpel is needed.

Here is what I think I know about it. It was about 8 months of EA, consumated into a PA that was intense for a few months and wound down in intensity for about a year, and then she tried to cut it off for about 2 years and be "just friends" before she ultimately confessed.

So she EA'd for the better part of a year. PA'd for the remaining part of that year, then kept in touch with this douchebag for another TWO years... so 3 years-ish in total IIRC.

She lied right to your face thousands of times in those three years. If she was so naive as to be seduced by this Casanova player doucheom and to be helpless against his charms, then why all that secrecy? Seems to me that a naive helpless victim would ask for help at some point in those three years. Side note that I do understand CSA and how it affects and changes things and I am so sorry that that's a reality she has to contend with. You're right that a lot of CSA survivors kind of get emotionally arrested at a younger age and that a lot of them develop some very unhealthy coping mechanisms. So I can see how she might be more vulnerable to falling prey to a womanizer. I do see that. But it still doesn't excuse what she did.

InkHulk I am in no way saying that you don't have a right to be angry at posom, or that you shouldn't hate his guts. That is all part of the process for a BS and I went through it too, believe me. And it would piss me the hell off when more seasoned posters would say 'ow owed me nothing'. It took me time and healing to see what they were saying, and it's okay if you're not there yet. But he didn't owe you anything. He's a player and a scummy human and a clearly very fucked up person, but he didn't make vows to you - SHE did. If neither of you are really focusing on THAT, then what's to stop the next player (cus there will be others) from leading her down the primrose path again?

Bottom line is that a person that is strong in their own boundaries and integrity could be approached by the most beautiful evil skilled player out there and it wouldn't matter one bit. I worked in the oil & gas industry for 15 years, so I know so SO many of "that guy". I was hit on and propositioned by "that guy" many times. I went to out-of-town conferences full of "that guy" in hotels with lots of drinking and flirting and legit could have hooked up with any number of them with little to no chance of my husband ever finding out. But never, not once, not for one second, did it ever occur to me to cheat. Could I look at them and say they were objectively good looking? Yes. Could I say that I was physically attracted to some of them? Also yes. But even so, I shut that shit down when it came up because I was married and in a committed relationship and going there was just not an option to me. That's what integrity looks like.

Even if posom was the slickest lothario out there, with the best moves and the evilest of intentions, it. doesn't. matter. It just doesn't. What does matter is that at some point (many points) in those three years, your wife absolutely KNEW that she was on a bad path and she willingly KEPT GOING DOWN IT. She chose to stay on that path. She chose to make him an option. om didn't 'make' her make that choice - she chose that with her own free will. Chose him over you. Chose him over her own integrity. Chose him over all of that. She has to dig in to WHY she made that choice, why she told herself this was okay when she darn well knew it wasn't and IMHO she won't do that digging if you and her are both casting her into the role of the naive helpless victim and him into the role of the evil moustache-twirling villain. That's giving him a whole lot of power that he doesn't deserve and stripping her of any impetus she has to work on herself and make meaningful changes.

With respect sir, I submit that you have allowed yourself to be convinced of a thing because you want to be. It makes it easier, less painful and simpler to say "All men are sexually motivated assholes" and go from there.

You've based this on a biased perception built on a slanted demographic re: your other site.

As for your decision to R or D, I can tell you what went into mine.

I do not agree that the OM owed us nothing. Those motherfuckers know full well they are destroying households. I believe it is reasonable and rational to despise that piece of shit - because WE owe THEM nothing but pain, and as rational adults we choose not to revisit violence for violence (Well, in most cases). I chose R because I love my wife, and had history and an existing relationship, kids, a home, et al. I wanted, at the time, to see if we could make our marriage work for real because despite the deep and enduring wound she inflicted, I still love her and want to be with her.

We seem to be doing well, some 12 years on now. Strength to you and yours.

edit:

And to speak to good outcomes - it's not about being tough on crime. It's about her having the awareness of what she did, because if not - it will happen again.

When I slid into alcoholism there were many compounding factors, but I still brought low my family by my own actions. Like an alcoholic a WS needs to take responsibility for themselves and choose to be a better person because they want to be.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 4:07 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

But he didn't owe you anything.

I don’t believe this is true. Basic social contract dictates the we owe our neighbors a certain degree of consideration. POSOM owed me privacy and to stay out of my business. I can’t just walk into my neighbors house and take things if I find the door unlocked.

With respect sir, I submit that you have allowed yourself to be convinced of a thing because you want to be. It makes it easier, less painful and simpler to say "All men are sexually motivated assholes" and go from there.

You've based this on a biased perception built on a slanted demographic re: your other site.

It is absolutely possible that the data I am working with is slanted, totally fair point. I don’t think I’m trying to convince myself towards a preconceived or desired outcome. I could tell you the day I was on here and I surrendered the outcome. That is a site value that I do fully embrace.

it’s because I think she may have been victimized in a sense here.

I hate to bring the supernatural L… word into this stimulating highly philosophical discussion but…

Was she victimized by the insidious luring of a manipulative predator or, was she victimized by her FOO issues, or victimized by her insecurities, or victimized by addiction, or a sexless marriage, or an inattentive or abusive husband, or unmet needs?

Or, we can ask the big scary elephant in the room question: Is our WS just the victim of not loving-desiring us enough?

Isn’t that what us BSs really want to know? Did our WSs fail us because they don’t adequately LOVE or desire us, or did they fail us because they’re the "victim" of something broken that can be repaired.

Enter the obligatory car analogy:

Is the car repairable, can we get more mileage out of it, or is it going to become a maintenance nightmare that’s no longer fun to drive, no longer reliable, is going to leave us on the side of the road when we need it the most, when the road gets rough? Do we fix the car by fixing fundamental problems or, by slapping bondo on it and giving it a paint job? Do we focus on the car thief who took it out for a joy ride because the locks and anti-theft devices no longer work, or do we focus our attention on the fundamental problems of the car and decide if should we, can we fix them?

Terrible analogy. Marriages aren’t inanimate objects that we keep around for sentimental value, that you can put a lot of one-sided love into and keep it going almost forever. A marriage is a living, breathing symbiotic organism that requires mutual Love.

Aren’t you really asking yourself, "Does she love me, truly love me like a spouse should?"

So coming back to your original question- why the general advice to focus my anger on my WW?

Only time, people of this community have advised BS to focus their anger on cheating partner is when they are victimizing their partner. There are many BS who in the initial days after DDay focus all of their anger and resentment on AP. They want to believe that their cheating partner is innocent and was lured into this affair. They do this so that they can forgive their cheating partners and salvage this sinking marriage. This always leads to rugsweeping and all the issues that led to affair are left unattended. This always lead to a disaster. This is what people of this community try to prevent by reminding BS to focus on their partner more than the AP.

But those who say AP doesn't own us anything are living under the rock.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 4:30 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

There may have been a time or place where he owed you something in the social contract. For that we have laws. Maybe you could sue him for alienation of affection where you live.

Anything he owed you ethically outside the law is unenforceable. We could debate until the end of time and it wouldn't matter who is right.

What you need is a safe partner. Is your wife a safe partner now or not?

This always leads to rugsweeping and all the issues that led to affair are left unattended. This always lead to a disaster. This is what people of this community try to prevent by reminding BS to focus on their partner more than the AP.

That is an interesting and plausible explanation. If it’s true it might be seen as seeing new BS’s as infantile needing to be lied to, but with the best of intentions.

I don’t believe this is true. Basic social contract dictates the we owe our neighbors a certain degree of consideration. POSOM owed me privacy and to stay out of my business. I can’t just walk into my neighbors house and take things if I find the door unlocked.

I'm not saying that what he did was okay at all - he intruded on your marriage and that makes him a scum-sucking asshole. But he did not make vows and promises to you. Your wife did, and she broke them into a million pieces. Whatever he did or didn't do doesn't matter, not really. What matters is that your wife willingly chose to break the vows and promises she made to you.

In your house analogy above, yes, most people have a basic decency meter that keeps us all from acting like feral swamp creatures (tho mine doesn't really turn all the way on until I get my coffee). Of course I wouldn't steal even if I found an unlocked door, and neither would you. But does that basic decency that you have and I have stop you from locking your doors? Of course it doesn't because you KNOW there's sneaky thieving shady af people out there that will take advantage of an unlocked door to take your stuff. So you lock your doors, and install a security system, and you take what steps you can to prevent falling victim to a burglary.

Your wife left that door unlocked - maybe she did it on purpose or maybe it was just absentmindedness, doesn't matter. She left it unlocked and got robbed and that sucks and she should have taken what steps she could to prevent it. But she didn't take those steps; she left the door unlocked and then slowly over time put out a welcome mat for the robber. Now she's wringing her hands about her stuff getting taken, but failing to recognize that she should have locked the damn door in the first place. Unless she learns from this robbery and fully accepts that she should've locked the door, then there's always a risk that she'll unlock it again.

Ok let’s assume your wife is a victim of a predator man who manipulated her into an affair. (A 3 years affair may I add).

What are your reconciliation requirements in this case?

There may have been a time or place where he owed you something in the social contract. For that we have laws. Maybe you could sue him for alienation of affection where you live.

Anything he owed you ethically outside the law is unenforceable. We could debate until the end of time and it wouldn't matter who is right.

What you need is a safe partner. Is your wife a safe partner now or not?

I generally agree. I hate the phrase "you can’t legislate morality". Morality is the only thing you SHOULD legislate. How that phrase ever came to be baffles me. But there is more to ethics than just the law. This fucker morally failed me when he came lurking. In hockey the players police the game where the rules leave off.
And none of these things will change the face that my wife needs to learn and change to become safe.

I’d like to hear more from you about the balance of showing empathy to my wife vs "letting her off the hook".

That doesn't have to be a binary choice though. We can empathize without excusing.

Yes, I am saying she needs to grow up, or at least wise up, and that may be a big piece of the change she needs to be a safe partner. There is other stuff around people pleasing and conflict avoidance. But yes, grow the fuck up and stop pretending like you can flirt like you are in 10th grade is part of the message here.

So, what you're saying is that your WW needs grown-up boundaries, right?

You seem to be looking at all sorts of reasons why those boundaries weren't there, and TBH, so did I. What I finally settled on though was my WH's values system. Yes, he'd had all sorts of hardship in his formative years and I really empathized with that, and even now, I think it's okay to empathize with that. But at the bottom line, he did not truly BELIEVE his own rhetoric when it came to his values. He was capable of producing circumstances in which disloyalty, infidelity, and lies were acceptable. It just made sense to me that his boundaries weren't there because the values themselves were not there, and what are boundaries anyway but behaviors which spring up in protection of our truest beliefs? We protect what we value. That doesn't mean that a WS can't change and grow, but it does mean that at the time of the cheating, those values weren't there. If they had been, the cheating couldn't have happened.

Beware the soft bias of low expectations. Women are absolutely accountable for their own behavior, same as men are. We aren't stupid or unable to contend with emotional information. In fact, if you want to get scientific about it, with a more direct connection between left and right brain hemispheres, women are better equipped and more efficient at processing emotional information. I'll grant you that men have twenty times the testosterone as women and are more likely to be driven by sexual conquest, but unless sex is forced, women are absolutely making active choices.