SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All of this talk simply does not have a ring of authenticity to it. When a person with little to no experience (children, teens, young adults, ....) get into trouble because they were too close to a line, boundary, bad situation they will say things similar to 'It is not my fault.", "I did not mean to do it.", "The peer pressure made me do it.", "Jason is the ring leader, go after him.".

As you grow up, age and gain experience in these situations you come to the conclusion that you are capable of doing bad acts. As such you learn to live according to your values. You also realize that you do not put yourself in situations to do bad acts or where bad acts can happen. You learn to not make it a routine to dance up to lines/boundaries because you know that unintended things can, and do, happen. The more precious and important things are the more you pay attention to safeguarding them.

If you want to plant your flag on the fact that there are people in the world that would take advantage of your wife *and* that your wife is pretty gullible that seems like a pretty thin plank to be walking on.

In essence you are saying my wife needs to grow up. You are additionally saying that the one OM that has already been in her life has to be the ultimate of all other OM in terms of super-get-in-her-pants powers.

Additionally, in most of the cases where things go sideways the offender did not get up in front of a group of the people closest to them in their life and said -- "I will never scam the old blue hair down the street out her family's life savings. In fact i swear to all of you that i will cherish and protect her." Doing this would mark that the offender is aware of what they are promising.

Finally, has it crossed your mind that perhaps the other BS is stating the same thing about your WW? That your WW was the one who has the super power and had her mind set on the affair with OM? Her husband is naive and is lost when it comes to the ways of the world. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

BraveSirRobin brings up a great point about how much stock you’re placing in what adulterers are posting on the Internet. You seem to be taking what they say at face value without thinking critically about their motivations.

A guy who is posting about his exploits to Reddit, for example, is playing to an audience. He wants validation that he’s a Casanova-level master seducer that otherwise decent women are helpless to resist… when in reality, unscrupulous men who are devoid of character would jump into bed with any woman who bats her eyelashes at him. But simply being at the right place and the right time with a willing skank doesn’t make him special, does it?

Similarly, the women who visit adultery forums get their thrills from portraying themselves as heroines in a bodice-ripper novel. Again, what plays better to an audience? "I’m an irresistible object of desire who was swept off my feet and caught up in a whirlwind of romance with Don Juan" or "I was really bored and horny so I fucked a cute guy from my cycling club who probably would’ve banged anything with a pulse"?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 12:58 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

She knew you both agreed to not eat chocolate. But she wanted the chocolate. The Costco worker said, c'mon it's just one piece, I won't tell if you won't.

Yes, I think this is right. Strike my poison comment, this is much better.

Honestly, I really think you are trying very hard to talk yourself into R by minimizing your wife's culpability here. I agree with pretty much everyone else in this thread, but believe what you want and if this makes it easier for you then just do it.

I’m honestly not trying to talk myself into anything. I came across that other OM/OW forum, doom scrolled it and saw things that surprised me. I’m processing that now.

But I will take a moment to reflect on Waited’s statement about it being the second time that was the death of the marriage for him. I respect that, it makes sense. One of the things we have to do as betrayed partners is construct a narrative out of chaos. I would guess that it took time for him to build that narrative and come to that clear conclusion for himself. You all are watching me in the middle of that process and in fact I’ve invited you into it. But I’m not promising that I’ll come to the exact same conclusion.

So can I assume because of this experiment someone can talk you into killing your children and you would not be entirely to blame because those people were bad people who talked you into it?

I recommend you read about the Milgram experiment and reflect on its implications for yourself. If I remember correctly, it was motivated in part by trying to figure out why otherwise normal people carried out Nazi atrocities, so your question is not off base. No easy answer.

So OM was a Jedi and your wife was just weak minded. Ok.

There is a book Never Split the Difference. It is written by a former CIA hostage negotiator. He writes about methods that allowed him to turn obviously hostile adversaries against themselves and to act in ways against their own interest. It is honestly brain hack type stuff, pretty scary. I used it to get a used boat way below market price. Now I’m not going to give POSOM the credit to say he is this sophisticated and skilled. But that experienced womanizers have intuitively figured things out that breaks down women’s defenses, that I can easily believe. Yes, my wife should have told him to feck off. It’s a really hard way to learn that simple lesson.

You should take trip to adultery sub in reddit, if you haven't. It's a very beautiful place built and run by adulters. It's full of rainbows and sunshine. You will find your answers there. Most frequent posters there are usually females. So, you would find it very easy to see how female adulters mind, logic and philosophy works.

In my drug carrying mule example above, the woman would have been a victim had she been caught and arrested on the first trip. But by the time she was caught, she SHOULD have, and really did, know that she was carrying something illegal. At that point she is no longer a victim.

I like this example, I think it’s helpful. One element I think you are missing in this story is that once the person starts to get suspicious that something unseemly is going on they have the problem of realizing they are deep enough into it to have potential consequences. So stopping cold or shining a light has risks. They could get punished for drug running, or piss off a cartel. So they justify that they haven’t gotten caught and that they have everything under control and keep going. But they are headed to disaster. Eventually, yes, they are fully engaged in the thing and fully culpable. But how they got there is different than the person who cooked up the scheme and tricked them into it.

At the end of the day pointing fingers on who initiated what is really irrelevant. The wayward chose to stray. So they have to do the work to find out why and hopefully reform themselves into becoming a safe partner.

I disagree here. I agree with This0Is0Fine that intent speaks to the likelihood of her becoming a safe partner in the future. If our story was that she signed up for Ashley Madison one day because she desperately wanted new dick I’m pretty sure I’d be gone.

She absolutely has poor boundaries and flawed character around this. But I’m with Waited that I don’t think she would have cheated without someone pursuing. POSOM didn’t create the flaws, but he did exploit them. There are a lot of teenagers who die in car accidents because they are bad drivers. The ones who survive didn’t survive because they are necessarily better drivers, they just didn’t get so unlucky.

If turning your wife into an adulter was OMs fault, then OM turning into a predator is someone else's or something else's fault. May be he was raised in a broken family that made him what he is today. May be he was cheated on when he was young and that turned his mind. May be his behavior was validated by other women. May it's the movies, culture, or friends etc etc. He wasn't born like this. He developed this personality when he grew up. I don't think he chose this lifestyle with the intent of 'let's be evil and destroy people'. No. He pursued a lifestyle for his own pleasure and that destroyed people around it. He was so into it that he just couldn't see or feel how destroyed other people are. And since he was never caught before or faced punishment, he continued this disastrous path.If you see it in this way then you can sympathize with OM too.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 1:59 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

If you had asked your wife before her affair, "If in future a guy approaches you with a romantic interest and wants to have an affair with you and he is genuine, honest and definitely not a predator, and truely loves you. Would say yes to him? And also he is married." What do you think your wife's response would have been?

The bait wasn’t an affair. The bait was a friendship. And if you believe that members of the opposite sex can be close friends, which many people do, then it can seem like there was a real legitimate benefit. I am more of a When Harry Met Sally guy myself, but my wife certainly wasn’t. She is now. Hard way to learn that lesson.

Also, don't forget what her Ap is to you is what your wife is to OBS.

Categorically, yes. That doesn’t mean that he couldn’t be more of a murder 1 offender vs my wife being more murder 3.

Do we still "fall" for the romantic concept? Of course, that’s why we get married too, but we also grow up, mature, learn from the world around us, have values and principles and if one of them is loyalty and another integrity, as it should be, even if Brad Pitt comes to our door, we don’t cheat on our husbands.

One of the things that made this all seem so unreal to me at D-day is that my wife is known as a fiercely loyal person. But that actually became a trait that furthered the A. As she walked down the slippery slope, POSOM became someone she gave loyalty to. A little at a time I’m sure, but eventually she gave him the loyalty that belonged to me, I’d guess without even noticing. The Great Divorce by CS Lewis explores how our normal virtues can become our worst vices if they get untethered from reality.

OK, let’s take you at your word. Your wife is an immature, impulsive, easily persuadable child who just needs to be at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong guy to end up on her back.

What does that say about the prospects of your future with such a woman?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:05 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

IIRC, her affair was 3 or 4 years?

There's a world of difference between eating one bite of chocolate, and eating everything at the chocolate factory.

I agree with those who said you should read the infidelity forum on Reddit. It would be a good dose of reality. Women are master manipulators, scammers, vicious, and want "THEIR married man" to give up his children,and punish the OBS, simply because she is seen as an obstacle in the OWs way,and those "fucking brats" are an extension of her,so they hate them to.

I do believe opposite sex members can be close friends.

I am really confused after reading all of your posts here. What are trying to tell here regarding your wife, AP and affair? Are you saying that AP is bigger evil and your wife is lesser? Or AP is evil but your wife a good person with flawed character? Also, explain me what this all means for healing and reconciliation.

Also, I feel like you are trying to rewrite the history here. Since, you have chosen reconciliation path and want to forgive your wife for her 7 years brutual infidelity, you are trying rewrite affair history by painting your wife as gullible and naive but good at core person and her Ap as an absolute and worst scumbag to ever walk on earth. If this could help you heal and forgive your truely remorseful wife then go with it. If it helps to reconcile then do it. You don't need validation from any of us.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 2:21 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

I don't know what sites you're reading, but of course a bunch of WWs on the Internet are going to commiserate with each other about how they were played by the Big Bad AP. I was played by the OM. I suppose it's useful for a WS to focus on the player characteristics of an AP if it helps break the limerence of an affair. But the moment you start using that as a form of mitigation or exoneration, you're creating impediments to the work.

Speaking as a WW, it is very, very difficult to keep looking at yourself in the cold light of reality and fully grasp what you allowed to happen. It's also very, very necessary. If someone dims the lights and hands you a teddy bear and a fuzzy blanket, that slows the process or even reverses it. That doesn't mean it's helpful to throw buckets of ice water on the WS either, and if empathy helps prevent you from doing that, then I'm all for it. But it shouldn't diminish the harsh reality that on both sides of an affair, the AP was just a tool for the WS. She was using him every bit as much as he was using her, to prop up flaws in herself that she needs to identify and repair. Cast her as a victim, and you encourage her to let herself off the hook.

Finally, if you look in the right places, you will find an army of OWs offering each other tips on how to pry married men away from their wives, as well as villifying those wives for standing in the way of the OW's right to happiness. They feel entitled to the OBS's husband, home, family, friends, jewelry, and bank accounts. They even attack the "selfish" children who side with their mothers and don't welcome the OW with open arms. Ditching his kids as well as his wife becomes a test of how much he really loves the OW. He's supposed to take everything away from the OBS and give it to her. I tell you truly: male APs are not the only manipulative predators out there.

BSR, thanks for posting. I’ve read a lot of your posts and find you to have an incredible perspective, been very helpful to me.

I don’t know exactly what the rules are about naming other sites. It’s like Harry Potter, the forum that shall not be named! But yes, I’ve found one forum that has completely unabashed affair cheerleading. It’s hard to not vomit when reading that stuff, hard to believe that there are humans doing that. What I am referring to right now is not that one, but one that has more of a theme of people struggling with their affairs, trying to remain no contact while hoping to avoid a D-day, seeing they are in an insane situation but seeing no good way out. They don’t have the self awareness you show, but neither are they the Hand That Rocks the Cradle crowd.

I’d like to hear more from you about the balance of showing empathy to my wife vs "letting her off the hook". When dealing with my alcoholic father (before he drank himself to death) people tried many things. Some went super hard line on him, basically cutting him out of their lives if he touched even a sip. And some people tried to be accepting and show him love and party with him. And neither approach had the effect of getting him to look inside to fight his demons and change course. So I’m not afraid of failing to be hard enough on her, I don’t see that as a silver bullet. I want to understand the truth, whatever it is, and go from there.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:22 PM, Thursday, February 16th]

If you want to plant your flag on the fact that there are people in the world that would take advantage of your wife *and* that your wife is pretty gullible that seems like a pretty thin plank to be walking on.

This is exactly what I’m saying. That my wife was naive and neither of us knew that there was this degree of malice and intentional evil lurking around every corner. What is thin about that?

In essence you are saying my wife needs to grow up. You are additionally saying that the one OM that has already been in her life has to be the ultimate of all other OM in terms of super-get-in-her-pants powers.

Yes, I am saying she needs to grow up, or at least wise up, and that may be a big piece of the change she needs to be a safe partner. There is other stuff around people pleasing and conflict avoidance. But yes, grow the fuck up and stop pretending like you can flirt like you are in 10th grade is part of the message here.
And no, POSOM (my preferred pronoun for him, please respect that) doesn’t have to be super, just run of the mill manipulator.

Finally, has it crossed your mind that perhaps the other BS is stating the same thing about your WW? That your WW was the one who has the super power and had her mind set on the affair with OM? Her husband is naive and is lost when it comes to the ways of the world. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Yes, it’s crossed my mind. But I don’t think it’s true. Waited doesn’t think that about his wife either, planning to challenge him about that?

When dealing with my alcoholic father (before he drank himself to death) people tried many things. Some went super hard line on him, basically cutting him out of their lives if he touched even a sip. And some people tried to be accepting and show him love and party with him. And neither approach had the effect of getting him to look inside to fight his demons and change course

- this is description of addiction. And, in almost every way, affair is also an addiction. You should read how drug addiction works. Read about withdrawal. Also, read how drug addicts struggle to fight addiction and why. Also, read how they overcome it. It is very very similar to affair addiction. You will be surprised to see that.

BraveSirRobin brings up a great point about how much stock you’re placing in what adulterers are posting on the Internet. You seem to be taking what they say at face value without thinking critically about their motivations.

Ok, so what are our motivations on this site? To virtue signal like the best of them and hold on to our righteous anger?

this is description of addiction. And, in almost every way, affair is also an addiction. You should read how drug addiction works. Read about withdrawal. Also, read how drug addicts struggle to fight addiction and why. Also, read how they overcome it. It is very very similar to affair addiction. You will be surprised to see that.

I won’t be surprised because that is a main part of my point here. I think it’s not outside the realm of possibilities that my wife’s story has parallels to Dopesick, that she got addicted and POSOM’s malice started her down that road.