SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You're doing just fine. You're only 2 weeks in. You're working both options. You're doing your self-care and being there for your kids. There's no hurry.

I feel like I need to keep hearing this, so thank you.

While it's true that the fantasy bubble can pop, leaving the WS flustered and not able to really identify with what they were thinking, that's not the end of the problem. WS cheat because they're messed up people, and even when the fantasy is destroyed, the recovery doesn't happen all at once. They've had months, and sometimes years, of engaging in mindboggling feats of mental gymnastics in order to give themselves permission to cheat and lie. They don't just turn into perfect ready-for-reconciliation specimens overnight.

Yes - I've witnessed some of the rationalization and continued rationalization. I'm sure I will keep experiencing it until I'm out the door. This is so maddeningly frustrating. I know people change, but not always into what they want or say they are going to be. I think either my wife has changed into someone else or she always was that person. In either event, this new person is not someone I recognize.

At two weeks out, of course you're not sure what you want. Hell, some of us spend YEARS perched on the fence with one foot out the door, even when we've already committed to R. You're doing remarkably well! You've seen big changes in just this short amount of time, which have left you in a position to fully explore both options... and you're doing that. You're doing it like a boss actually.

I can't do that, not years. I just don't feel that I can. This shit is too painful. I appreciate the words though. My plan is to just continue on - making preparations for leaving. I've seen no real action from her and even if I did - can I live with this?

It takes TIME. And yeah, you might feel rushed, but that's a feeling not a fact. You've done the bits which need to be done in a hurry, and that's drawing a line under your tolerance for a cheating partner. Now, you breathe and you work both options until you know which of those two choices is right for you.

I feel rushed but also as though every day is week. It's so strange.

Strength to you.

Thank you, it helps.

Lost: just a quick note. When BeyondRage references VARs, he means "Voice Activated Recorders". Small digital audio recorders that can be easily hidden and contain a lot of storage and battery power. There are people on here that will tell you their favorite brand.

Here's a decent survey (relatively recent) of clever, tiny VARs:

https://spycentre.com/blogs/news/top-5-hidden-voice-recorders-of-2017-review

What could a VAR do for you? Tell you who she is calling when you aren't immediately there monitoring you. If she is STILL calling her AP even now, that's going to tell you something important that her words do not. The trick is to use them in hidden places so you catch unguarded conversations. So placement in the study she sleeps in or her car is a must. If the device beeps when it starts, learn how to disable that. Cover any LED indicators with black electrical tape.

The good news is most of them are pretty affordable and available on Amazon.

What could a VAR do for you? Tell you who she is calling when you aren't immediately there monitoring you. If she is STILL calling her AP even now, that's going to tell you something important that her words do not. The trick is to use them in hidden places so you catch unguarded conversations. So placement in the study she sleeps in or her car is a must. If the device beeps when it starts, learn how to disable that. Cover any LED indicators with black electrical tape.

The good news is most of them are pretty affordable and available on Amazon.

I get it now. That's very interesting. I will keep that in mind.

I think a VAR would really be helpful for you. This is not for legal evidence, in almost all places infidelity doesn't matter in a divorce and even in the places it does it isn't worth trying to prove in most cases. This is just for you. It might not be strictly legal to record conversations that you are not part of where you live as well so again this is just for your peace of mind and understanding of your situation. I do think one in her car would cut through a lot of crap for you and let you know if she is still in contact.

I think a VAR would really be helpful for you. This is not for legal evidence, in almost all places infidelity doesn't matter in a divorce and even in the places it does it isn't worth trying to prove in most cases. This is just for you. It might not be strictly legal to record conversations that you are not part of where you live as well so again this is just for your peace of mind and understanding of your situation. I do think one in her car would cut through a lot of crap for you and let you know if she is still in contact.

Eh, my lawyer said that it does matter in divorce, financially speaking. At least in my state I guess. That said, I just want to split, I'm not trying to gobble up every penny. Also, I already have texts of her admitting the infidelity.

So yeah, it would be just for me and since she isn't truly trying to reassure me something like this might. Then again, why the fuck isn't she trying to reassure me? Actions, not words. That's something I've said to her multiple times.

Once I'm ready my actions are going to be going out the fucking door. I'm going to look up mediation services soon. I have that MC appointment on Thursday. Most of me feels it will be useless, but another part of me feels that it might be cathartic. I don't know.

Eh, my lawyer said that it does matter in divorce, financially speaking

You still have to balance the cost of what goes to the attorney and the investigators you'd have to hire to prove it. Probably not worth it if you can just mediate a deal and move on with your life. Good luck at the MC this week. Keep your cool but if it goes toward blaming you just come up with a phrase like "I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't see this situation the same way"

Arguing about minor things will just drive you crazy. I tried MC as well. In the midst of my xWW's Affair we were talking about how we don't evenly split the chores up! Completely off topic but the MC felt like we were getting somewhere if I'd do the laundry once a week.

Lost I am late to the party on your thread, but may I just say - You sir, are a complete BADASS.

You are two weeks out and you are at a place that it took me months to get to. Stay the course. From what I've seen on your thread here, your ww is not even in the same city as the ballpark is in for R. Maybe she gets there, maybe she doesn't. The most important thing is that YOU get clear of this merry go round. And in so doing, you set an amazing example of strength and character for your children. And believe me - they will know that.

On VARs... Unfortunately there are a lot of circumstances for BHs on here where a WW will file false DV charges or claim abuse. I know - every BH when confronted with that statement says "Mine wouldn't do that." The sad truth is that before all this, you would have said the same about her cheating. Placing VARs in strategic locations is good. Keeping one on you at all times around your ww is better. That is just to CYA in case she really goes off the deep end and starts trying to invent some case of DV. And if you have no 'proof' sadly most of the time the woman is believed in those cases. Shitty, but true.

Just keep swimming! Either way it goes (R or D) YOU will be better off for it and so will your kids. Doesn't mean it won't suck complete ass getting to OK tho... sigh.

Sending you good juju!

You still have to balance the cost of what goes to the attorney and the investigators you'd have to hire to prove it. Probably not worth it if you can just mediate a deal and move on with your life. Good luck at the MC this week. Keep your cool but if it goes toward blaming you just come up with a phrase like "I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't see this situation the same way"

Exactly - I don't think it would be worth the cost.

Arguing about minor things will just drive you crazy. I tried MC as well. In the midst of my xWW's Affair we were talking about how we don't evenly split the chores up! Completely off topic but the MC felt like we were getting somewhere if I'd do the laundry once a week.

Are you fucking serious? Ugh. Yeah, that would be a complete waste of time. That just reminds me of my wife's 'list'. It's like, yeah, that's an interesting list you have there, I'm blown wide open and you are asking about chores around the house to make YOU feel better? WTF, no.

Lost I am late to the party on your thread, but may I just say - You sir, are a complete BADASS.

Thanks, I appreciate it even though I definitely don't feel like one.

You are two weeks out and you are at a place that it took me months to get to. Stay the course. From what I've seen on your thread here, your ww is not even in the same city as the ballpark is in for R. Maybe she gets there, maybe she doesn't. The most important thing is that YOU get clear of this merry go round. And in so doing, you set an amazing example of strength and character for your children. And believe me - they will know that.

No, she's not. Right now she's in a victim mentality - but says she's at fault and has ruined everything. It's a weird dynamic. She says she doesn't deserve me or anything.

All I keep thinking is, well why the fuck don't you try to ease my mind?

All I want to do is get off this merry go round. I feel hopeless and then I take a step. I contact the refinancing people. I do a little research. It still feels like a mountain to climb but it feels better than just sitting here.

On VARs... Unfortunately there are a lot of circumstances for BHs on here where a WW will file false DV charges or claim abuse. I know - every BH when confronted with that statement says "Mine wouldn't do that." The sad truth is that before all this, you would have said the same about her cheating. Placing VARs in strategic locations is good. Keeping one on you at all times around your ww is better. That is just to CYA in case she really goes off the deep end and starts trying to invent some case of DV. And if you have no 'proof' sadly most of the time the woman is believed in those cases. Shitty, but true.

Okay that gives me pause - yeah, I would think my WW wouldn't do that...but guess what else I didn't think she'd do?

Just keep swimming! Either way it goes (R or D) YOU will be better off for it and so will your kids. Doesn't mean it won't suck complete ass getting to OK tho... sigh.

Sending you good juju!

Thanks man, I really need it. I appreciate this place a lot and people like you.

No, she's not. Right now she's in a victim mentality - but says she's at fault and has ruined everything. It's a weird dynamic. She says she doesn't deserve me or anything.

Riiiiight? Mine did the same crap. Just mind-boggling how out-to-lunch a cheater's brain is.

All I want to do is get off this merry go round. I feel hopeless and then I take a step. I contact the refinancing people. I do a little research. It still feels like a mountain to climb but it feels better than just sitting here.

You've got the right attitude. Some days a 'win' will be staying upright and putting pants on. Some days you will feel unstoppable. It sucks, but just take the steps you can right now. And if that is "I drank water and didn't cry or throw up today" then it is fine. Baby steps are still forward ones. Just be kind to yourself right now.

Okay that gives me pause - yeah, I would think my WW wouldn't do that...but guess what else I didn't think she'd do?

I am sure some of the guys on here can provide you with real SI examples of this, but I know it does happen unfortunately. A $40-50 VAR on your person is a small price to pay for your own protection. And by extension for your kids too.

I'm blown wide open and you are asking about chores around the house to make YOU feel better? WTF, no.

My XWW had a similar mindset about some chores, she told the MC that She watched and waited and it took 3 days for me to put a Coke can that was on a counter into the returnable bin. The MC said that my WW could have done that "chore" herself or if we got a housekeeper to come in once a week would things get better? I worked at home so I guess that I was responsible for all the housework as well as my biz, which usually made as much ore more $ than her job.

But it was common for her to dwell on the coke can on the counter to avoid the giant elephant in the room.

Lost One

Also, I already have texts of her admitting the infidelity. The VAR is not to prove shes has cheated. We know you already know that.

The VAR is to let you know if she is breaking NC while in her car and talking to him. If that happens can you have any doubt she is going to start the affair again or never ended it????

The only ways you are going to get answers are

(1) a polygraph she refuses to take and most of us would bet we know why.

(2) the VAR which will verify it unmistakenly

(3) she confesses again. NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN now that you are not exactly playing the pick me game anymore.

(4) file for divorce and she what she does.

You are driving yourself nuts trying to get water from a rock.

Riiiiight? Mine did the same crap. Just mind-boggling how out-to-lunch a cheater's brain is.

I think it's some sort of rationalization - as though she is explaining why she isn't doing shit that I ask her to.

You've got the right attitude. Some days a 'win' will be staying upright and putting pants on. Some days you will feel unstoppable. It sucks, but just take the steps you can right now. And if that is "I drank water and didn't cry or throw up today" then it is fine. Baby steps are still forward ones. Just be kind to yourself right now.

Thanks - yeah, some days are worse than others. I just have to feel movement. It helps because the goal is so far off.

I am sure some of the guys on here can provide you with real SI examples of this, but I know it does happen unfortunately. A $40-50 VAR on your person is a small price to pay for your own protection. And by extension for your kids too.

True. Actually I have a friend who is going through a regular divorce and his spouse is, well, kind of on this end of things. Then again, I am only hearing his side so who knows.

My XWW had a similar mindset about some chores, she told the MC that She watched and waited and it took 3 days for me to put a Coke can that was on a counter into the returnable bin. The MC said that my WW could have done that "chore" herself or if we got a housekeeper to come in once a week would things get better? I worked at home so I guess that I was responsible for all the housework as well as my biz, which usually made as much ore more $ than her job.

What kind of irks me about the dynamic is that I do a lot of the shit around here to begin with. Especially in the last few years. She's done less and less. I wash the kids clothes and my own, for instance. She only washes her stuff occasionally and she constantly half-asses things. I used to pick that shit up a bit but not now. There's a mess in the kitchen that I have no idea what the purpose was nor when it will be put away.

But it was common for her to dwell on the coke can on the counter to avoid the giant elephant in the room.

Yeah, it's easier to point out other's faults than admit your own. Another aggravating thing.

Also, I already have texts of her admitting the infidelity. The VAR is not to prove shes has cheated. We know you already know that.

The VAR is to let you know if she is breaking NC while in her car and talking to him. If that happens can you have any doubt she is going to start the affair again or never ended it????

Good point.

The only ways you are going to get answers are

(1) a polygraph she refuses to take and most of us would bet we know why.

(2) the VAR which will verify it unmistakenly

(3) she confesses again. NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN now that you are not exactly playing the pick me game anymore.

(4) file for divorce and she what she does.

You are driving yourself nuts trying to get water from a rock.

I do like that it would give me a certainty that the other methods would not provide. I will say that. I'm going to research it.

Right now she's in a victim mentality - but says she's at fault and has ruined everything. It's a weird dynamic. She says she doesn't deserve me or anything.

This is not an excuse for the behaviour, but a possible explanation:

She is in a guilt/shame spiral. It feeds upon itself. The guilt causes shame, which then causes inaction, which causes guilt, then the shame hits again because they are not strong enough to do anything about it.

The low self-esteem/respect will also fuel this further.

Would be good if you could get her to go see an IC. Some of these spirals, if left unchecked, can lead to an unfortunate end.

You are the captain of the ship.

The departure horn has been sounded, and you are slowly leaving port.

Right now, she has one foot on the ship and one on the dock. She can only stay that way for so long...unless you end the departure procedures.

Concurrently, the cost of admission for her to put both feet on board is all of the steps you have asked for to demonstrate transparency. Anything less than 100% means security puts both feet on the dock for her...no matter what she may want.

It really is that simple.

You get to set the rules. She gets to follow them...or not...but not as your wife.

STAND FIRM.

Lost One

You’re losing focus. Forget about the housework irking you . The only thing you should be laser zoned in on right now is that your wife has been ducking another man, openly for some time , and still refuses to take any of the major steps to give you some clear signal she has not taken this affair underground or put it on hold till things cool down.

Everything else is irrelevant especially if you divorce .

Stop diverting your mental energy to other issues. All that is doing is buying time for her

This is not an excuse for the behaviour, but a possible explanation:

She is in a guilt/shame spiral. It feeds upon itself. The guilt causes shame, which then causes inaction, which causes guilt, then the shame hits again because they are not strong enough to do anything about it.

The low self-esteem/respect will also fuel this further.

That makes sense, it's just that it feels like more of the entitled selfishness that brought her to the affair in the first place.

Would be good if you could get her to go see an IC. Some of these spirals, if left unchecked, can lead to an unfortunate end.

She has gone to one, twice. Yesterday she went and she told me, vaguely, about it. She said that the counselor was asking her a lot of 'how would you feel' questions. I didn't push because I really didn't want to hear it at that point. Maybe I should have?

You are the captain of the ship.

The departure horn has been sounded, and you are slowly leaving port.

It kind of feels like that. It feels like I've signed up for the military and my departure date is a little ways off. I'm full of fear and uncertainty. I have to get into shape before going (I really have no idea all that's entailed with the military, FYI). My family/friends are reluctant for me to go (in the metaphor this would be my wife) but have made it inhospitable to stay where I'm at.

Right now, she has one foot on the ship and one on the dock. She can only stay that way for so long...unless you end the departure procedures.

Concurrently, the cost of admission for her to put both feet on board is all of the steps you have asked for to demonstrate transparency. Anything less than 100% means security puts both feet on the dock for her...no matter what she may want.

It really is that simple.

You get to set the rules. She gets to follow them...or not...but not as your wife.

Yup, this is true. I cannot abide by how things are.

STAND FIRM.

Thanks. It helps.

You’re losing focus. Forget about the housework irking you . The only thing you should be laser zoned in on right now is that your wife has been ducking another man, openly for some time , and still refuses to take any of the major steps to give you some clear signal she has not taken this affair underground or put it on hold till things cool down.

Yes, you are correct.

Everything else is irrelevant especially if you divorce .

Stop diverting your mental energy to other issues. All that is doing is buying time for her

Fair point, I will try.

it's just that it feels like more of the entitled selfishness that brought her to the affair in the first place.

.... and you would possibly be right about this. She was entitled to start, and now feels entitled to be the victim.

.... and you would possibly be right about this. She was entitled to start, and now feels entitled to be the victim.

I think I am. That said, she is constantly saying that it's her fault and she doesn't deserve me and all this that and the other. Words are words though. Actions are what matter. She says she's not a victim, but she acts like it. She also says I don't know what she's going through but concedes I'm going through worse.

I want to roll my eyes into the back of my skull until they fall out. You ran me over with your car and you're bitching about how you need to take it to an auto-mechanic.

Hi LostOne

Sorry, it’s been a while. I’m finally getting caught up here after a busy last weekend.

Do I have it right that you guys are going to MC today? Sorry if I’m off base on that.

So after reading all that’s gone on with your interactions with her this last week, I think the advice I have is that since nothing has really changed effectively in her attitude, that I wouldn’t change much in my stance.

And what I mean by that is that, I’ve still heard nothing that says she doesn’t love the OM, and nothing that makes you feel she doesn’t love him more than she loves you. Maybe she does love you more, but she hasn’t done much at all to prove it.

And so the stance of “I’m not going to be in a relationship where I have to share my wife’s affections” is still the right one.

That’s the main message. Everything else is just ancillary.

If she can’t make you feel like you are her one and only. And if she’s just going to live life staring out a window thinking of what might have been with the POSOM, then what kind of relationship is that?

And if the MC can take the position that there’s nothing to fix in the M while her heart is elsewhere, then great. But if she (I think the MC is a she) is going to try and work on marital issues before addressing that big fat elephant in the room, then I wouldn’t waste my time.

Has your WW even mentioned the letter and list of requirements to even attempt R? If not, that usually means they are not up for that work and are hoping the MC will help get you to rug sweep the whole thing and get you to continue to stay in a limbo M, change everything she thinks you did wrong and pretend to change a few things on her side and never speak of the A again while she surreptitiously checks his social media pages dreaming of him a little bit each day and wondering how she can connect with him behind your back someday again. Sorry for the long run on sentence, but it’s true.

So if it were me, I’d be very simple in terms of working in MC. “I cannot work to reconcile and rebuild a marriage with a woman who is in love with and pining away for another man. That won’t work for me.”

No discussion of who didn’t communicate well before the A or who didn’t show affection. None of that matters. Someday it would, if she did real work to make you feel safe again. But she instead is asking you to make her feel safe first before she will falsely try to make you feel safe. That will never work.

Honestly if it were me I’d still be telling her, you love the OM more then me, so please, feel free, go be with him. It’s clear he’s your true love and I am not. Make it plain and clear.

So best to stay the course of moving on until you see it happen. If she knows your serious about ending your relationship because she’s frankly not the woman you married who vowed to protect you above all others, then maybe she will figure out finally that it’s her own actions that will cause her to lose you and that if she truly doesn’t want that, she needs to finally show it.

In the meantime, you can be halfway down the road to self respect, and a new path to happiness before that happens. And if it ver does, you’ll be in a much better position to decide if you even care to try with her if she finds true remorse.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:52 AM, January 16th (Thursday)]

I think I am. That said, she is constantly saying that it's her fault and she doesn't deserve me and all this that and the other. Words are words though. Actions are what matter. She says she's not a victim, but she acts like it. She also says I don't know what she's going through but concedes I'm going through worse.

Yup, which is why the advice is always to observe their actions rather than hear what they say.

To paraphrase: "The Victim-Force is strong in this one....."