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Hey Lost,

Going to backtrack a bit on your thread, and specifically to the issues where she had asked you for what she could do to help you.

So, with that, I will ask a few questions (bear with me):

- In all her relationships, was she the pursuer, or pursued?

- Does she have limited access to the internet?

- Was/Is she the Princess of the family?

- Has she ever lived on her own before?

Why those questions? What I am trying to establish here (in a very rudimentary way) is to see of she has any proactive bones in her, or has she been spoon-fed her whole life. This is not to making an excuse, but to establish what her mindset is like.

From what you have posted, your WW is reacting, rather than taking proactive steps to help you heal. She is still in her victim mindset.

If you have a look at the Wayward section, there are some pretty kick-ass waywards who have owned the destruction they wreaked, and some that are not so kick-ass and stand there going 'woe is me'.

The proactive waywards research on how to help heal their partners. They embrace that they have destroyed something that they had no reason to destroy. They then chase their BS, and view their second chance as a privilege, and not an entitlement. They are in Remorse mode.

The hand-wringers are still too self-absorbed in their guilt, and hence are paralyzed by that guilt. They take not action, and ask for what they should do, then dwell on it, and sometimes question why they should have to do the things their BS asks of them.

You WW is in the hand-wringing category at the moment, and until that mindset changes, not a safe partner.

KingofNothing:

I apologize for being only tangential to the topic, but I played D&D as a teenager, and my son, unrelated to anything I did with him, picked it up years later in high school. My ex wasn’t home a lot back then (guess where?). So she totally missed him bringing friends home to play in the basement (and me cooking munchies, etc). So when she asked him what he wanted for Xmas he mentioned some 5e books. She called me to consult. “What is fifth edition, fifth edition of what?” “Dungeons and Dragons, just like he played at home all those years, remember?” She didn’t. I ended up purchasing it for her to give as present for him. I don’t do favors for her and maintain minimal contact, but this I didn’t mind doing. Wayward miss so many things.

Sorry for the thread jack. I fly that geek flag high.

No worries, it's nice to talk about something else. I played it as a teen too, 2nd edition. The game has changed a bit. Seems easier, no THACO, for instance.

I think that what you are describing is going to happen with my family too. I like creating the world for my children and their friends. I like doing it in general. So to be able to pour my creative energy into that is a treat for me too. I had been trying to get better until recently. Hopefully I'll pick it up again. I just got in a bunch of miniature figures that I ordered for my kids and their friends - it's their custom 'characters'. I've been so emotionally destroyed lately that I haven't picked it up.

I wouldn't see that as a favor for your ex - that's doing your kid a solid. I would have no problems doing that.

LostOne

A couple of questions

(1)) you stated before you were asking her if she talked to him. Are you still doing that??? When she tells you no you ask her why you should believe that??? I would continue to press her to see if she gets pissed off and burts something out. You ate the shit sandwich , let her feel a little pressure. She deserves it

Yes, I still am asking her. She doesn't give me an answer. I brought up a polygraph and she said that those things were unreliable. I said you wouldn't do it just to ease my mind?

Obviously it's suspicious as shit. She's not really acting as though she's remorseful anyway though. So I just see this as another piece of evidence.

(2) I hope on your list you told her there is no more going to the casino unless you’re there and there is no more going out for drinks . You said she doesn’t like to gamble . She should not be anywhere near that casino and more importantly she should not want to go knowing how that will trigger you

Yeah, there will be no more Casino, unless we definitively split. That doesn't mean she won't sneak off somewhere though. So it just won't be obvious.

Stay on the offense. It’s her job to convince you that she is stYing away from this guy. And you know this fucker was probably told she wanted to continue but couldn’t because hubby finally put his foot down. I don’t think anyone posting here believes she did it because she wanted to. He will for sure at some point take a run at her again

I would wait about a month and then hit her with a polygraph .

I totally agree with you here and I'm just not feeling it. I'm trying to figure out my options and the best way to pull the ejector. I can't totally do that and shit, maybe things will change, but right now I dunno.

As to what she told him, I think she waffled and said she has to be with me for the kids. Or maybe she didn't say anything - I don't know. The reason I tend to believe the kids thing is because if someone were thinking rationally and trying to fool someone else they would have said that they saw living to old age with their husband or some other thing. Of course I've been wrong about a lot lately, so...

Going to backtrack a bit on your thread, and specifically to the issues where she had asked you for what she could do to help you.

So, with that, I will ask a few questions (bear with me):

- In all her relationships, was she the pursuer, or pursued?

- Does she have limited access to the internet?

- Was/Is she the Princess of the family?

- Has she ever lived on her own before?

She's always been the pursued. She's has three sexual relationships: First with the douchebag, second with another dude, and third with me.

With me we started seeing each other and I didn't know she had a boyfriend. She'd already cheated on that dude with douchbag. When I found out I was in so much turmoil. I was young and went no contact with her. She broke up with her boyfriend and we became a couple.

No, she works from home, has wifi.

No, she has an older sister, a younger sister, and a brother. Her and her brother are the responsible ones. Her homelife was pretty bad - father was abusive (physically with everyone and sexually with the older sister). He went to jail for 10+ years, I think.

She has not lived on her own.

Why those questions? What I am trying to establish here (in a very rudimentary way) is to see of she has any proactive bones in her, or has she been spoon-fed her whole life. This is not to making an excuse, but to establish what her mindset is like.

A little from column A a little from column B. For the past year + she's been lazy. She only does things when she has too (laundry, for instance). She'll clean in spurts - say something like 'okay this weekend we are cleaning', then we all clean.

From what you have posted, your WW is reacting, rather than taking proactive steps to help you heal. She is still in her victim mindset.

I feel that this is totally spot on. I've even told her that she's not a victim, that she should be helping me heal - she says she's trying. I'm not sure what that means.

If you have a look at the Wayward section, there are some pretty kick-ass waywards who have owned the destruction they wreaked, and some that are not so kick-ass and stand there going 'woe is me'.

I think that my wife is more woe is me, but she does acknowledge that this is on her. But if actions do not meet words, then where am I? You know?

The proactive waywards research on how to help heal their partners. They embrace that they have destroyed something that they had no reason to destroy. They then chase their BS, and view their second chance as a privilege, and not an entitlement. They are in Remorse mode.

She's doing some research on her own. It's pretty much the only thing that she's done that I told her to do and it's probably because her therapist said to do it too.

The hand-wringers are still too self-absorbed in their guilt, and hence are paralyzed by that guilt. They take not action, and ask for what they should do, then dwell on it, and sometimes question why they should have to do the things their BS asks of them.

You WW is in the hand-wringing category at the moment, and until that mindset changes, not a safe partner.

This is totally her. She asked for what she could do, I provided a list, and...nothing...

Crap, totally forgot. So I asked a bunch of therapists the questions and one was like 'we should come in and talk about this'.

Um...no...

One of the other ones said that she doesn't believe in unmet needs or any other reason supporting infidelity.

She thinks there should be no secrets regarding infidelity.

She does not support blame shifting. I'm asking her what time she has available.

Yes, I still am asking her. She doesn't give me an answer. I brought up a polygraph and she said that those things were unreliable. I said you wouldn't do it just to ease my mind?

This really tells you all you need to know. Full stop. She is still in the Affair. She may be sincere about trying to reconcile but she is not ready to fully cut off the OM to do so. My feeling is that she may now be trying to hold onto him while she sees if you will commit to her. Then maybe, MAYBE, she will end it with him. She does not seem willing to take the chance that she comes out of this scenario with neither of you.

This really tells you all you need to know. Full stop. She is still in the Affair. She may be sincere about trying to reconcile but she is not ready to fully cut off the OM to do so. My feeling is that she may now be trying to hold onto him while she sees if you will commit to her. Then maybe, MAYBE, she will end it with him. She does not seem willing to take the chance that she comes out of this scenario with neither of you.

Could be - I think it's something along these lines. I agree with you though, she doesn't seem willing to actually take a chance or do anything.

Just wondering....

What would it take her doing for you to just say “I’m done!”????

No one deserves what you are going through!!!

Just wondering....

What would it take her doing for you to just say “I’m done!”????

No one deserves what you are going through!!!

Right now an escape hatch.I realize it's early and all that. Things might change, they may not. However, financially it's difficult. Also, in VA, I have to be separated for a year. The in home separation looks extremely difficult.

That said, I'm trying to find my other options.

I tend to agree with Beenthere's analysis on your WW.

To some greater or lesser measure, the affair is still likely ongoing. It explains her behavior.

Essentially, what she wants to be true (love for you, reconciliation) is not what is actually true (mixed feelings at best, love for the AP at worst).

Tread carefully, brother.

I tend to agree with Beenthere's analysis on your WW.

To some greater or lesser measure, the affair is still likely ongoing. It explains her behavior.

Essentially, what she wants to be true (love for you, reconciliation) is not what is actually true (mixed feelings at best, love for the AP at worst).

Tread carefully, brother.

Yes, I think that's probably the case.

On a side note, out of the five or so MC's I've contacted this morning (so not last night), 3 are not unmet needs model - one of those is kind of iffy on whether or not the WW should spill everything. He said that it depends - too much detail can be harmful at this point. He said he does separate issues: Crisis and Chronic problems.

1 of the 5 won't answer questions.

The last one I haven't heard from.

My spider sense is tingling though - do they just want new clients?

Could be.

Perhaps it is a philosophical difference of opinion.

Either way, any counselor will eventually tire of answering questions if they think you won't commit to becoming a client.

True. It's just that with all that I've read here I was expecting to not find any counselors who would be good. They'd all be unmet needs model folk.

So to have 2 1/2 (not sure about the last one) is a bit odd to me.

Re: therapists...

One of the other ones said that she doesn't believe in unmet needs or any other reason supporting infidelity.

She thinks there should be no secrets regarding infidelity.

She does not support blame shifting. I'm asking her what time she has available.

Bingo ... take a shot at this one.

Am doing - thank you.

I just wanted to say that even though I'm still having ups and downs it's not as bad as it was. I'm able to do more without obsessing - listening to podcasts at work, able to watch shows, play with children and eat.

So I'm a bit better, although my situation appears largely one that I just have to wait out the timeline.

No worries, it's nice to talk about something else. I played it as a teen too, 2nd edition. The game has changed a bit. Seems easier, no THACO, for instance.

Hell, YEAH! 2nd edition was my jam. Oriental Adventures! I bought the author of OA a beer recently.

I think that what you are describing is going to happen with my family too. I like creating the world for my children and their friends. I like doing it in general. So to be able to pour my creative energy into that is a treat for me too. I had been trying to get better until recently. Hopefully I'll pick it up again. I just got in a bunch of miniature figures that I ordered for my kids and their friends - it's their custom 'characters'. I've been so emotionally destroyed lately that I haven't picked it up.

Do everyone, including yourself, a big favor, go get those figures and start painting. You'll A) have something other than your marriage to think about, for a while. B) will create something unique for your children, which will forge memories that they will treasure in the midst of chaos. I loved playing the old D&D fogey with my son's group-- I made nachos and barbecue and whatnot, and helped my son paint figures. The rest of life was disintegrating but I didn't have to drag him into the shit.

I wouldn't see that as a favor for your ex - that's doing your kid a solid. I would have no problems doing that.

Yeah, I know, ultimately it was for him even if she took all the credit. I don't sabotage her. That was fine by me. It just blew me away she had zero memory of the older games when he was in HS, in our house!

One of the other ones said that she doesn't believe in unmet needs or any other reason supporting infidelity.

She thinks there should be no secrets regarding infidelity.

She does not support blame shifting. I'm asking her what time she has available.

Bingo. If you absolutely have to go to MC at this stage, THAT is the one to go to. Sounds like she isn't going to tolerate that "I'm a victim, woe is me" bullshit for a second.

Yes, I still am asking her. She doesn't give me an answer. I brought up a polygraph and she said that those things were unreliable. I said you wouldn't do it just to ease my mind?

Well erm, gee.. if she has absolutely NOTHING TO HIDE, this ought to be a walk in the park for her, wouldn't it?

Hell, YEAH! 2nd edition was my jam. Oriental Adventures! I bought the author of OA a beer recently.

Nice - I had that but we never played it. We played primarily in Al Kadeem (sp?) and a little in Ravenloft. It was a lot of fun. It still is - it gets the creative juices flowing. I have this dream that my kid's imaginations will take off from this and other things.

Do everyone, including yourself, a big favor, go get those figures and start painting. You'll A) have something other than your marriage to think about, for a while. B) will create something unique for your children, which will forge memories that they will treasure in the midst of chaos. I loved playing the old D&D fogey with my son's group-- I made nachos and barbecue and whatnot, and helped my son paint figures. The rest of life was disintegrating but I didn't have to drag him into the shit.

I was unclear - I have the figures already - I have passed them out to my kids friends. We just haven't played. I haven't painted them. I have other figures to paint. I was more referring to actually playing. I kind of want to paint the figures with the kids together, so what you're suggesting is up my alley.

My daughter has talked about being DM, but we haven't played nearly enough. She also is a bit impatient and won't read the rules that she doesn't need to know yet. There's still time though.

Yeah, I know, ultimately it was for him even if she took all the credit. I don't sabotage her. That was fine by me. It just blew me away she had zero memory of the older games when he was in HS, in our house!

I'm not trying to throw stones or anything, but it seems like the WW have a habit of forgetting shit.

Bingo. If you absolutely have to go to MC at this stage, THAT is the one to go to. Sounds like she isn't going to tolerate that "I'm a victim, woe is me" bullshit for a second.

Yes, hopefully it's a good one. Could just be telling me what they think I want to hear...Which is getting tiring in this day and age....

Well erm, gee.. if she has absolutely NOTHING TO HIDE, this ought to be a walk in the park for her, wouldn't it?

Exactly. I get the idea about polygraphs and reliability, but if it'd ease my mind, why the fuck wouldn't you? I would. Shit, I would take one now just for the experience. It's a red flag in a forrest of flags.

Lost: I am very late to your thread and I hope that mine doesn't get lost in the wall of other messages. I may be able to give you a different perspective than what you are getting. I am 8+ years removed from my wife's LTA and very happily reconciled.

You may have noticed that many of the posters here are divorced. As a result, the recommendations you see are often very harsh and one-sided. There is a saying here that, after discovery, the BS needs to take care of themselves first. And I don't disagree. However, there is also a pervasive idea about how the WS should act, sometimes from the get-go, that is really out of line with reality. Time and perspective may be able to give you some much-needed clarity.

Exactly. I get the idea about polygraphs and reliability, but if it'd ease my mind, why the fuck wouldn't you? I would. Shit, I would take one now just for the experience. It's a red flag in a forrest of flags.

I don't know what it is but polygraphs make me nervous. I have had to take one for a clearance and I was going through a ton of stuff in my mind. I can't lie for shit, I'm very bad at it-- which I'm not really ashamed of. It's just kind of intimidating. Result: passed with flying colors. They do accommodate for the subject's mindset and try to make them feel comfortable. It's not as unreliable as some media makes it out to be.

Oh gosh - accidental post. My apologies.

First thing: People who are cheating do not, during the affair, think about what they're going to do when they get caught. It's not like they're seeing a therapist and reading books like, "How to Heal Your Spouse After An Affair." They are totally unprepared for the nightmare that they are unleashing. As a result, to expect for your wife, 13 days after discovery, to completely turn on a dime (particularly if she had real feelings for the guy) is completely absurd.

I know that you don't want to hear that - and most posters on your thread will take it as proof positive that she MUST not be "reconciliation material." But, if you step back, that really is unfair. People generally don't get caught in a year and a half affair, immediately call the AP and say, "Fuck off," and completely begin supporting and healing their husband. It would be nice... but not very realistic.

So my recommendation to you is to keep this in perspective. You need to sit your wife down and explain, calmly but firmly, that the affair and everything that goes with it ends immediately. She does not get to set the parameters of reconciliation, or even determine if there will BE reconciliation. That decision is yours and yours alone. Furthermore, you will be moving along the path to divorce unless she finds a way to prevent it. Divorce is now the default option and only she can save it. Tell her, clearly and calmly, that if she can't find it in her to do what YOU need then you will simply end the marriage. Then just walk away.

A wife having an affair such as hers needs to wrap her head around what she's done. She needs to get a hold of the shame that such action brings and learn to live with that shame. It is not easy. And it will NOT happen in two weeks. Anyone telling you different is, well, probably divorced.

Think about your wife. You've known her a long time. Does she have reconciliation in her? I'm not talking about today or tomorrow - but over the next few months. Is she the kind of person that, after the shitstorm subsides, will be able to help you heal (because you, my friend, have a LONG way to go, even if you don't realize it yet). Can she? Or is she the kind of person that will NEVER be able to subjugate herself to helping you?

You know her. Be honest with yourself. Are YOU the kind of person that could wind up forgiving her? Or are you the type of person that will jam it down her throat every time you argue over what's for dinner?

These are important questions. There are people that will NEVER be able to get past the idea that their wife fucked another guy. If that's you, then just divorce. It's totally okay.

If, on the other hand, you think that reconciliation is possible, then lay out your list of demands/criteria and step back and see if she can figure herself out enough to do it. It won't be perfect - shit, none of us are perfect. But maybe she'll try. Maybe she'll look at herself over the next few weeks and think, "What the F was I doing?????" That does happen.

Step back from the affair and look at what is happening objectively. It's very, very hard. I get that. But that's the way to get past the affair, with or without your wife.

[This message edited by LifeisCrazy at 10:33 AM, January 13th (Monday)]

Lost: I am very late to your thread and I hope that mine doesn't get lost in the wall of other messages. I may be able to give you a different perspective than what you are getting. I am 8+ years removed from my wife's LTA and very happily reconciled.

I appreciate all perspectives, so thank you.

You may have noticed that many of the posters here are divorced. As a result, the recommendations you see are often very harsh and one-sided. There is a saying here that, after discovery, the BS needs to take care of themselves first. And I don't disagree. However, there is also a pervasive idea about how the WS should act, sometimes from the get-go, that is really out of line with reality. Time and perspective may be able to give you some much-needed clarity.

This is interesting. It's hard to navigate to be honest. I'm trying to protect myself and find out who my wife truly is. I feel that my WS should act at least closer to what's being described, but I really have no idea. I do appreciate your perspective though. Right now she's acting as though she's the victim and that's absolutely not the case.

I don't know what it is but polygraphs make me nervous. I have had to take one for a clearance and I was going through a ton of stuff in my mind. I can't lie for shit, I'm very bad at it-- which I'm not really ashamed of. It's just kind of intimidating. Result: passed with flying colors. They do accommodate for the subject's mindset and try to make them feel comfortable. It's not as unreliable as some media makes it out to be.

I don't like lying and I try not to. I'm probably bad at it. From what I know about it, it depends - it's inadmissible in court and there are a few ways of getting around it. Plus if you're a psychopath you can pass them. At least this is all from what I remember.

Still though, if the shoe were on the other foot I'd do it just to ease her mind. The fact that she won't is a red flag.