SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Oh gosh - accidental post. My apologies.

First thing: People who are cheating do not, during the affair, think about what they're going to do when they get caught. It's not like they're seeing a therapist and reading books like, "How to Heal Your Spouse After An Affair." They are totally unprepared for the nightmare that they are unleashing. As a result, to expect for your wife, 13 days after discovery, to completely turn on a dime (particularly if she had real feelings for the guy) is completely absurd.

I know that you don't want to hear that - and most posters on your thread will take it as proof positive that she MUST not be "reconciliation material." But, if you step back, that really is unfair. People generally don't get caught in a year and a half affair, immediately call the AP and say, "Fuck off," and completely begin supporting and healing their husband. It would be nice... but not very realistic.

Okay, I get that. That's fair.

So my recommendation to you is to keep this in perspective. You need to sit your wife down and explain, calmly but firmly, that the affair and everything that goes with it ends immediately. She does not get to set the parameters of reconciliation, or even determine if there will BE reconciliation. That decision is yours and yours alone. Furthermore, you will be moving along the path to divorce unless she finds a way to prevent it. Divorce is now the default option and only she can save it. Tell her, clearly and calmly, that if she can't find it in her to do what YOU need then you will simply end the marriage. Then just walk away.

A wife having an affair such as hers needs to wrap her head around what she's done. She needs to get a hold of the shame that such action brings and learn to live with that shame. It is not easy. And it will NOT happen in two weeks. Anyone telling you different is, well, probably divorced.

Again, that's fair. The trouble is that I'm having a hard time believing anything she's saying. Her actions aren't matching her words.

Think about your wife. You've known her a long time. Does she have reconciliation in her? I'm not talking about today or tomorrow - but over the next few months. Is she the kind of person that, after the shitstorm subsides, will be able to help you heal (because you, my friend, have a LONG way to go, even if you don't realize it yet). Can she? Or is she the kind of person that will NEVER be able to subjugate herself to helping you?

I don't honestly know. I would have said yes prior to this, but those could be my 'wife glasses'.

You know her. Be honest with yourself. Are YOU the kind of person that could wind up forgiving her? Or are you the type of person that will jam it down her throat every time you argue over what's for dinner?

I wouldn't jam it down her throat every time we argue, but I don't think I'll forget it either.

These are important questions. There are people that will NEVER be able to get past the idea that their wife fucked another guy. If that's you, then just divorce. It's totally okay.

If, on the other hand, you think that reconciliation is possible, then lay out your list of demands/criteria and step back and see if she can figure herself out enough to do it. It won't be perfect - shit, none of us are perfect. But maybe she'll try. Maybe she'll look at herself over the next few weeks and think, "What the F was I doing?????" That does happen.

I have laid out a list of demands. It's been a few days and nothing. Maybe I'm rushing too much as you seem to suggest.

Step back from the affair and look at what is happening objectively. It's very, very hard. I get that. But that's the way to get past the affair, with or without your wife.

Fair point.

One last thing. Your wife is going to begin to see the repercussions of her affair. A broken home. Her kids being brought up in a family of divorce, maybe even with the AP as their stand-in "Dad." Her having the stigma of having cheated and everyone knowing. The sense of your own broken moral code.

These things are all going through your wife's head. She just doesn't know how to handle it. For example, is she going to prostrate herself to you only for you to turn around and file for divorce? If that's where things are heading then why should she do it?

In a weird way, if you are looking for a chance at reconciliation, you are going to eventually need to give her the space necessary to figure herself out. That's still a bit down the road but it's a hurdle that YOU will need to one day cross.

One last thing. Your wife is going to begin to see the repercussions of her affair. A broken home. Her kids being brought up in a family of divorce, maybe even with the AP as their stand-in "Dad." Her having the stigma of having cheated and everyone knowing. The sense of your own broken moral code.

The kids already have noticed things. So yeah.

These things are all going through your wife's head. She just doesn't know how to handle it. For example, is she going to prostrate herself to you only for you to turn around and file for divorce? If that's where things are heading then why should she do it?

That's fair, the thing is she might be right. I'm not seeing the care that she says she has. Maybe she's holding back because she expects me to leave. I don't know.

In a weird way, if you are looking for a chance at reconciliation, you are going to eventually need to give her the space necessary to figure herself out. That's still a bit down the road but it's a hurdle that YOU will need to one day cross.

True.

Right now the person who is in front of me is not a person I want to reconcile with. That might change. Maybe she's shielding herself or what have you as you are suggesting.

I appreciate the perspective.

Continue to watch her actions.

They don't lie.

Add this statement to your repertoire:

"It's hard to believe your words when your actions are saying something entirely different."

FTR, I think reconciliation is possible under the right circumstances. You are nowhere near that point with her ATM.

Continue to watch her actions.

They don't lie.

Add this statement to your repertoire:

"It's hard to believe your words when your actions are saying something entirely different."

I've been saying something similar, but yes.

FTR, I think reconciliation is possible under the right circumstances. You are nowhere near that point with her ATM.

I agree with you here.

Schedule the polygraph. Inform your wife that you view a polygraph test as more reliable than anything she says.

Lost One,

I think that you know just about everything that I am posting below. I offer it as a concise review of the history and current status of your situation. Then, I offer some indicated actions that spring from that foundation. If I have gotten anything wrong, I apologize. Please take what is helpful, and leave the rest.

"Douche Bag", or DB, has been in your WW's life for most of her entire life, not just the last 18 months. She keeps him in her life. She loves him. Both she and DB are serial cheaters.

He is her priority, the Alpha. DB is her lover. You are the "good guy" - the Beta: the good husband, father, and provider. She can not let him go because she wants him in her life for "the thrill, the rush, and the attention she wants." She has always picked him and his feelings over you and yours. She withheld sex from you because she did not want to betray him. She deliberately put your health in danger.

She "broke up" with him face to face, not because she wanted to let him down easy. Probably, she wanted to discuss about how they need to cool it for now, or take it underground, until she can settle things down with you, and get you back into place and under control. Even if I am wrong about the conscious act, it may well have been in the back of her mind. In any event, she wanted to be able to leave him with some hope/chance that she would be back, that they were lovers but that the situation prevented them from being together. She is probably manipulating both of you. She is trying to protect her source of stability and financial support. I even doubt she is thinking much about the kids. I propose that you are simply being strung along. She certainly does not act like she is trying to save her marriage to the love of her life. She cries for herself, for regret, and not for you or remorse. She fed you total bullshit with the list of pre-conditions for which you must provide guarantees before she would cut it off with DB.

She is not "too weak" to end it with DB. She just does not want to. She doesn't want a divorce. She does not want to lose her financial support and stability. She may even want a father that is around for her kids. I'll bet that if you were to offer an open marriage, she would gladly continue her relationship with DB and you. In that way, she could have both of you. After all, that is what she has(?) been doing. The possible stumbling block for that is that DB now does not seem to want to share. That is quite ironic.

She cries because she is threatened with losing her cake by your demand that she choose. She is not "torn between two lovers." She is torn between her lover and her provider. She even told you that you are her social security plan for her old age. You heard it differently as a more romantic message.

I would be very suspect that your wife could ever cut if off with DB. Do you want that sword hanging over your head for the rest of your life? Unless she can provide overwhelming evidence that she has discarded him from her heart/mind FOREVER, you should maintain a straight and narrow path to D. She can go to IC for help, but MC is a waste of time while she still has positive feelings for DB. She is the problem with the marriage.

If you want to have any chance at R, and not just a false R, you should be all no-nonsense with her. She should not go anywhere without your knowledge and she should be able to convince you that she is only going/doing that which she has told you she was. She has destroyed every bit of trust that you have in her. If she ever wants trust, she must build it ounce by ounce over a long period of time. She must clearly show you that YOU are her Number 1 priority (perhaps tied in some areas with the kids) in every aspect. If she can't, then she does not deserve your love or support.

Please follow through on the separation, especially financial, to prevent her cake-eating. How she deals with your withdrawal of finanical support from her (not from your children) will be telling. She may show you that without providing the beta support, you do not have a roll in her life. On the other hand, she possibly could disprove my cynical assessment.

If you have any doubts about her being truthful and forthright about any critical facts, do not let her stonewall you on the polygraph. If she has disclosed everything truthfully, she will have nothing to hide/fear. She should be willing to provide you with this means of assuring you (thus providing much needed peace of mind) that you actually know with what you are dealing.

The path to R or D is not linear. Threads on this site are continuously proving that fact. It will be a difficult, long process. You need to make sure that you are not setting yourself up for only continued disrespect, low prioritization, and disappointment. She has to provide some concrete, believable reason for you to start pushing that immense boulder every day to the top of the reconciliation hill. You do not want to suffer like Sisyphus.

Her demands for the "lists" were, IMHO, a stalling/deflecting tactic to slow things down until she could convince you to rug-sweep her affair. Then she could pick back up with DB (along with taking it deeper underground). The "only one list away" statement was as egregiously deceitful as could be, with the sole purpose of guilting you into submission.

Consider taking this particular take, adjusted for what you know that I have not gotten right, on your situation as a working hypothesis. Act on it as though it is totally correct. Blend it with your 180 process. As time passes, conditions change, and new information emerges, adjust the hypothesis to keep you on target for the outcome that you want.

Sending strength and support.

[This message edited by PassThis at 8:12 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

I'll be honest Passthis, that's something I'm worried about.

@PassThis, thanks for that post. In some respects, particularly the attitude and tactics of WW, my situation and LostOne's are a bit similar.

I have had my moment(s) of realization lately, and am determined to follow through on going my separate ways. It doesn't mean there aren't still moments of extreme sadness and (a little bit, but not much) doubt. And your post is a very good reminder of reality. I think I'll read it several times...

You may have noticed that many of the posters here are divorced. As a result, the recommendations you see are often very harsh and one-sided. There is a saying here that, after discovery, the BS needs to take care of themselves first. And I don't disagree. However, there is also a pervasive idea about how the WS should act, sometimes from the get-go, that is really out of line with reality.

Believe it or not, since I suspect I come off as a bit harsh at times, I'm not in disagreement with this notion. When I discovered my ex's infidelity, we tried forgiveness and reconciliation after a hard 180, and it did not take. There are some spouses that would rather burn everything down around them rather than admit they were wrong about something. Even while I was reading her emails out loud to her (into a recorder), lavishing detail about the many sordid subjects contained therein, including many negative things about myself, she was denying, blameshifting and minimizing everything. EVEN WHEN SHE WAS SO TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY CAUGHT. There comes a point in time when you just can't negotiate with a person like that. It's like bashing your head into a wall. So, really, that's no argument FOR staying married, in my opinion, but no couple's circumstances are the same.

Lost One,

I think that you know just about everything that I am posting below. I offer it as a concise review of the history and current status of your situation. Then, I offer some indicated actions that spring from that foundation. If I have gotten anything wrong, I apologize. Please take what is helpful, and leave the rest.

Sending strength and support.

This is probably as close to a PERFECT explanation that anyone could write. I hope you read it a few times.

You also need to start searching for a "burner phone" EVERYWHERE she would never expect you to look. Her car, lingerie drawer, suitcases, etc.

You stated that she could sneak off even if the casino is cut off. ABSOLUTELY TRUE since you said she works from home while you are gone.

Now add in she refuses to even answer when you ask has she contacted him again. Do you want to spend the next years wondering where she is every time she walks out the door.

Lost one, you do NOT have the information you need to make any decision based on facts.

Lost one, you do NOT have the information you need to make any decision based on facts.

You mean, to stay, right?

I had another conversation with her. I basically told her where I was - I said that we were headed for separation/divorce. I used a lot of Passthis' ideas (not the specific words). I'm not sure that it's 100% on target but I think there's a lot more truth in what PassThis has said than there should be if I was thinking about reconciliation. So it was a heavy conversation and she swears it's not true. I told her to think about it.

Right now the plan is to go to the counselor on Thursday (I think my work filter caught their email, since I haven't been able to confirm it). She will continue going to IC. We may or may not continue going to MC. I don't know, we will see. Then we start preparing for separation, with a target further away than I want, but it also gives me time to prepare.

I talked with the refinancing people today. The bad news is that if she/I refinanced and got it in one of our names there wouldn't be a lot of equity to pay the other person out. So that sucks, but whatever.

We also talked a bit about custody arrangements - I think we might be able to work something out there. Yeah, it sucks, I won't have the kids with me 100% of the time, but I can manage. If the custody goes that way then I have a few more options on where to stay - which gives me a bit of breathing room, financially speaking.

If things change between her and I, they change, but that would require action from her. I can only focus on what I'm doing, going to do, and how to prepare.

[This message edited by TheLostOne2020 at 6:48 PM, January 13th (Monday)]

You had a heavy conversation , discussed separation / divorce and she has still offered NOTHING !!!!

Does that tell you anything other than she’s trying to string this along to wear you down.

You would think at this point she’d be throwing herself at your feet.

Have you put a VAR in her car or in the house where she works??

Why you are going to therapy is beyond me with her

With me we started seeing each other and I didn't know she had a boyfriend.

This is referred to as Monkey Branching, where a person lines up their next 'mate' before letting go of the current one. If she has been doing that through all her relationships, then it is a high chance that she was hoping for her AP to be her next 'mate'. This will need to be addressed by her IC if you are to even have a whiff of a chance at R.

It is already obvious that her self-esteem/value is not there, and she will never be safe for you until that is addressed.

As to her reluctance to do anything for you, as it has been posted before, it is her victim mentality that is keeping her from taking any action. If she does take the steps you need, she is not guaranteed of R, so better not waste the effort to take those steps. Might be worth asking her why, to make sure.

Note: Truly remorseful waywards will cede control of the outcome to the betrayed. They realize that the second chance that was given is a privilege, and not an entitlement. It needs to be earned, is not a given.

I can only focus on what I'm doing, going to do, and how to prepare.

Correct approach.

So far, you seem to be on a good path to get out of Infidelity-land. The pace is set by you, as it is your journey. If your WW decides to follow you, she has to follow the path you set, at the pace you set. There may come a time (if your WW decides to follow you), when your WW has proven herself, that she regains the privilege of walking beside you on the path.

I had another conversation with her. I basically told her where I was - I said that we were headed for separation/divorce. I used a lot of Passthis' ideas (not the specific words). I'm not sure that it's 100% on target but I think there's a lot more truth in what PassThis has said than there should be if I was thinking about reconciliation. So it was a heavy conversation and she swears it's not true. I told her to think about it.

Sounds like she thinks it’s a bluff and she’s calling you on it.

You are aware MC could rugsweep and blame you? They are not gods so keep your wits about you.

Furthermore, you will be moving along the path to divorce unless she finds a way to prevent it. Divorce is now the default option and only she can save it. Tell her, clearly and calmly, that if she can't find it in her to do what YOU need then you will simply end the marriage. Then just walk away.

This cannot be stressed enough.

WALK AWAY

It has been said here a million times that to have even a chance of saving a marriage, you MUST be willing to lose it.

Give a "list of demands" is meaningless. R only works if she is asking you what she can do to keep you. Begging you.

Friend, you are in infidelity. Your voice has no meaning inside that realm. What she hears from you is "wah wah wah". Take steps to get out of infidelity. Right now, the only path is to start walking away from the marriage. If she is R material, she will come after you. If she is not, you are doing yourself a favor by leaving.

You had a heavy conversation , discussed separation / divorce and she has still offered NOTHING !!!!

Does that tell you anything other than she’s trying to string this along to wear you down.

You would think at this point she’d be throwing herself at your feet.

Yup, bingo - in order for her words to mean anything she needs to put forth action. She has not. I'm not working on the assumption that she will.

Have you put a VAR in her car or in the house where she works??

I'm not sure what that is.

Why you are going to therapy is beyond me with her

It's probably a mistake but I honestly want to see what the therapist says.

This is referred to as Monkey Branching, where a person lines up their next 'mate' before letting go of the current one. If she has been doing that through all her relationships, then it is a high chance that she was hoping for her AP to be her next 'mate'. This will need to be addressed by her IC if you are to even have a whiff of a chance at R.

I'm aware of the term and that could be it - although the guy is a loser, so I think she's probably trying to have her cake and eat it too. I'm not exactly sure how that fits in to monkey branching.

It is already obvious that her self-esteem/value is not there, and she will never be safe for you until that is addressed.

This is very true. She has no self esteem right now and probably hasn't for a while.

As to her reluctance to do anything for you, as it has been posted before, it is her victim mentality that is keeping her from taking any action. If she does take the steps you need, she is not guaranteed of R, so better not waste the effort to take those steps. Might be worth asking her why, to make sure.

Actually she might have said something like that. She's afraid of what might happen or something. I don't know, she says a lot and it sounds like rationalization at this point.

Note: Truly remorseful waywards will cede control of the outcome to the betrayed. They realize that the second chance that was given is a privilege, and not an entitlement. It needs to be earned, is not a given.

See, this makes perfect sense to me. Her actions are not matching this.

Correct approach.

So far, you seem to be on a good path to get out of Infidelity-land. The pace is set by you, as it is your journey. If your WW decides to follow you, she has to follow the path you set, at the pace you set. There may come a time (if your WW decides to follow you), when your WW has proven herself, that she regains the privilege of walking beside you on the path.

Thanks - I just hate this trapped feeling. If I could just escape quickly that would be one thing. I have to set up, prepare. I'm not keeping her in the dark about it either. I really can't if I want it to be amicable. I am going to keep plugging away and check on mediators (I think that's what they are called). They are kind of expensive, but VASTLY less expensive than two lawyers fighting it out. Of course there's a part of me that thinks I've been deluded for 20 years about my wife, what makes me think that this is going to go smoothly? Or that there is a shot at that?

Sounds like she thinks it’s a bluff and she’s calling you on it.

Very possible - but the way I figure it if that keeps her on the path that she's on then fine with me. I will keep on. I figure I will continue posting here to help my resolve.

You are aware MC could rugsweep and blame you? They are not gods so keep your wits about you.

I'm very aware of this - I actually asked the MC a series of questions related to this and they said they didn't do this. They said that the were not a met needs model and a few other things.

Now, AS I'VE LEARNED PAINFULLY, just because someone says something doesn't mean they'll stick to it.

This cannot be stressed enough.

WALK AWAY

It has been said here a million times that to have even a chance of saving a marriage, you MUST be willing to lose it.

I'm wrapping my head around the concept that I've already lost it. I need to keep moving forward.

Give a "list of demands" is meaningless. R only works if she is asking you what she can do to keep you. Begging you.

That's true. The way I figure it, I won't see that until I'm good and ready to actually move into an apartment. Once the separation paperwork is all good to go and all that.

Friend, you are in infidelity. Your voice has no meaning inside that realm. What she hears from you is "wah wah wah". Take steps to get out of infidelity. Right now, the only path is to start walking away from the marriage. If she is R material, she will come after you. If she is not, you are doing yourself a favor by leaving.

Agreed, however I literally can't just leave. That's half the problem I'm in. I have to get out, which requires time, work, and getting my ducks in a row.

You're doing just fine. You're only 2 weeks in. You're working both options. You're doing your self-care and being there for your kids. There's no hurry.

While it's true that the fantasy bubble can pop, leaving the WS flustered and not able to really identify with what they were thinking, that's not the end of the problem. WS cheat because they're messed up people, and even when the fantasy is destroyed, the recovery doesn't happen all at once. They've had months, and sometimes years, of engaging in mindboggling feats of mental gymnastics in order to give themselves permission to cheat and lie. They don't just turn into perfect ready-for-reconciliation specimens overnight.

At two weeks out, of course you're not sure what you want. Hell, some of us spend YEARS perched on the fence with one foot out the door, even when we've already committed to R. You're doing remarkably well! You've seen big changes in just this short amount of time, which have left you in a position to fully explore both options... and you're doing that. You're doing it like a boss actually.

It takes TIME. And yeah, you might feel rushed, but that's a feeling not a fact. You've done the bits which need to be done in a hurry, and that's drawing a line under your tolerance for a cheating partner. Now, you breathe and you work both options until you know which of those two choices is right for you.

Strength to you.

Duplicate

[This message edited by TheLostOne2020 at 12:36 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Another doppleganger

[This message edited by TheLostOne2020 at 12:36 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]