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Would all the men please stop going on and on about being subjected to vanilla sex and what a women "let" one man do to her but not another. Women are not objects that you compete over to have the most access to. You have no idea how it came to be that she allowed one person or another to do things. For all you know one man suggested it and another did not. Or one man made her feel more comfortable about her suggesting it. Or maybe she really wasn't into all the adventure but played the part because one partner really wanted it and she wanted to please them.

I am sorry, but this business of what someone does affecting the degree of guilt of his wife is really bugging me. Its like you are all jealous. Relationships should not be about the degree to which you violate someone. It should be about the degree to which you connect. How that connection is made is irrelevant.

I personally prefer vanilla sex. The other becomes more about the sex and less about the person. Yes, I have absolutely had both. But the sex that I have felt most connected to my partner and sharing the moment is what you men would call vanilla. And I really want and expect a man who loves me wand wants to be with me to not resent it if he doesn't get to stick it up my butt. Even if in a past relationship I let someone else do that.

So the issue is she cheated. Not how she cheated. Thats like saying an EA is not relevant. So for gods sake please, please, please stop going on about this poor man had to endure 'vanilla' sex.

AO, You're taking a lot of actions very quickly. This may be your normal MO, and that's fine, but I'd recommend you try and relax if at all possible, and give yourself some time. You don't have to make life changing decisions right away. It's fine to have a plan in place, and it's also fine to take your time and deal with your emotions.

I'd also recommend you listen to Bigger, among others.

There are indeed many points of view on SI, but some contain more bitterness and vitriol than those with a healthy point of view should have. While you can't be sure, there is something to consider:

Those who say they know how you feel, what you're thinking, and (much more accurately) how sad your story makes THEM feel, are generally sympathetic, and are more interested in finding out what you want or need. These are coming to you with a desire to help. Most have been in a similar situation, and while none can know exactly what you feel or what your personal deal-breakers are . . . they may well have lived through similar feelings.

However, anyone who claims to know what your wife felt, what she is currently feeling, what her motivations were, what they are now, wants to compare or know about sex, and/or claims to know what would have happened . . . These people are stating things that none of us can possibly know. Advice from these commenters may be well meant, and even sometimes relevant . . . but perhaps would be best avoided for now. It may well come from a place of rage, bitterness, and resentment, and reflect more of a desire to hurt or punish than genuinely help.

(Apologies to valid telepaths and/or any psychics who are never wrong out there.)

[This message edited by c24j at 1:51 AM, November 20th (Monday)]

"I never noticed how much infidelity lurks in popular media...movies, tv shows, news, novels."

In today's society (and maybe every society there has ever been) there is nothing as 'juicy' as an affair. It's the most exciting topic for gossip, it's what everyone likes to watch on tv, etc. It won't change. For me it's not even about the sex so much (with exeption of STD's). It's more about your best friend selling you out and bad mouthing you. Sex is just sex and it's her body so she can do whatever she wants with it.

I think the main problem she will have is dealing with the disrepectful actions like; having sex in your bed, slagging you off, etc. Those are simply just unpleasant things to do. Personally I think she needs to figure it out herself (individual therapy) before you two can compromise.

[This message edited by Smillie at 12:59 AM, November 20th (Monday)]

However, anyone who claims to know what your wife felt, what she is currently feeling, what her motivations were, what they are now, want to compare or know about sex, and/or claim to know what would have happened . . . These people are stating things that none of us can possibly know. Advice from these commenters may be well meant, and even sometimes relevant . . . but perhaps would be best avoided for now. It may well come from a place of rage, bitterness, and resentment, and reflect more of a desire to hurt or punish than genuinely help.

(Apologies to valid telepaths and/or any psychics who are never wrong out there.)

Hear, hear, c24j! Hear, hear!

Hi AO

You say;

I have also been reading some of the other terrible stories on this site. Helps me realize that, as many of you have noted, my story isn't unique. It is good to see BSs who seem happier many years afterwards, no matter whether they chose D or R.

I am not sure what the classification scale of a WW's A would be but I would imagine that what your WW did and what my XWW did would be in the top quartile of "badness" in terms of the A. So, terrible story, yes, it might be said that what XWW did to me was terrible. It hurt. A lot.

But then we get to the 2ns part of the quote and I have gotten to happier. Somewhat sooner than I had anticipated (about 18 months) and it would seem, somewhat sooner than most. But I have a number of friends over in D/S who have all gotten their in their own time.

I know that there are most probably as many in R as well. So I can give you the personal assurance that it is not only possible but probable for you as well.

No ohforanewme:

What MY ex-fiancé did to me is the absolute worst case. At least I think so…

It’s relative to the beholder. Nobody is minimizing what AO is going through, but rather pointing out there are a lot of similarities and common ground we can build from.

AO

Based on that common ground I think you are falling into known patterns that betrayed men often fall into:

You are trying to control the situation.

That’s OK – That’s exactly what you should do: Take control of what you can control.

But don’t even try to control what you can’t.

It’s important to realize and understand WHAT you can control and WHAT actions you CAN take.

For example: You can’t make your wife move into another apartment. You can’t go rent somewhere, furnish it and stock the fridge and then tell her this is her home. She gets some input on this too.

Way too often we get posters suggesting changing the locks, throwing them out and all that. It’s not legal. It can do more harm than good. It can lead to one of the spouses residing in the home, and not necessarily the one that changed the locks…

You can tell your wife that you don’t want her to reside in the family home. You can tell her that as part of a separation agreement joint funds will be used to rent an apartment until the separation and divorce are final. You can suggest a price-range. You can offer to find it for her. And she can refuse it all.

Irrespective of the name on the deed for the family-home then it’s her legal abode. In most states that’s enough. She can demand to come back and if you refuse her she can get legal aid and maybe even have you moved out. Chances are that marital assets are joint unless you have a clear prenup and/or your state has laws regarding inheritances and such.

I have said one of your biggest advantages is that you have more time than is common here on SI. Use it. Go talk to your attorney. Ask the tough questions. Learn what her rights are. How will the assets be divided? What does your state say? What are the laws? From that basis, you can make suggestions on how things might be divided, suggestions on how to progress with separation and divorce. But remember: She too has a voice.

AO – Remember nobody is so unique? Well… less than a year ago we had a poster that said he had resources and power. He also said he had an air-tight prenup defining his wife’s rights if caught in infidelity. The boring analytical and level-headed bunch here on SI suggested he do a little bit more to prove the infidelity, at least make sure via his attorney that he had good-enough proof. He didn’t. In his last update, he was still in court trying to settle the divorce…

Like it or not then there is a legal process for what you are dealing with and for the path you have chosen. Act within that process.

Finally, AO:

When you tell your wife that you want to separate as the first step to divorce you are theoretically firing her from her role as your wife. Once you take that action you have no more say in what she does and how she behaves. It’s like firing an employee for absenteeism; you don’t get to go pull him out of bed once he’s no longer on the payroll. If you decide to separate and divorce she is at best on severance pay, she had no obligations to you any more.

I’m concerned that you’re taking so many actions so quickly. You’re considering an IC, right? Well, many will recommend that you don’t make many decisions immediately, especially since your wife is no longer actively in infdelity.

You’re an engineer, so you presumably understand statistics, right? What if you were unintentionally relying on a sample from SI that is terribly self-selected and isn’t representative of the population? JFO is full of people who are so recently involved with infidelity that they are very early on in processing their emotions.

It’s like they’re in the hold of a sinking ship, desperately trying not to drown. You’re receiving advice from people who barely have their heads above water. They aren’t sure if they should try to swim to shore, because they don’t know whether there IS a shore, or whether they’re in the middle of the ocean. They’re thrashing and flailing, emotionally speaking.

In contrast, other forums comprise a sample of people who have moved farther along in the process; they’re more emotionally detached. They are now on the shore. They can tell you what it’s like to swim, or to grab a life vest and hang on. They have perspectives that those in JFO cannot possibly have. They’ve gone through more of the stages of grief and can now make better decisions for themselves.

Should you also sample opinions from the Reconciliation forum, or divorce/separation, you would get a quite different set of opinions because they are much further out from infidelity.

In a nutshell, you are not receiving the “collective advice of SI.” You are receiving advice from a very self-selected sample that is not representative of the SI population.

You are going through a trauma right now, and a good IC will help you with all the stages of grief that you’re about to pass through. They typically advise that you don’t make permanent decisions during this phase. Mine recommended that I take six months and process my emotions, to detach from the situation, before taking too many actions or decisions that may be permanent.

What is the rush to action? You aren’t actively in infidelity. Your wife voluntarily gave you time and space to process. Do you have to make this a “legal” separation because she won’t give you the space otherwise? If you wait two weeks to find a good IC, rather than lawyer up, would that really make any difference in the long run?

Another night passes and more attacks from posters to other posters. Unacceptable and I am amazed that A1 still reports to us.

I have my own views which I have held back largely on regarding what I think A1 should do but I will now fire back at some of what I am seeing on this thread only because the attacks won't cease

First, the length and level of betrayal here DOES matter. All cheating is bad but a 9 year drawn out intense affair is life altering. Anyone who compares a 9 year intense affair to a ONS for example has lost all perspective IMO

Secondly, some here seem to be defending his wife to an extent. Really ? He's the one here for help, not her. He's the one who had his life ripped apart due to her actions. SHE IS NOT THE VICTIM. Until now, she has suffered little to no consequences for her actions.

Third, everyone is right that noone 100% knows what was in his wife's head. However, neither do the people who keep reminding us of this. However, based on experience, people are allowed to opine what they think it is, whether liked or not by others here.

Fourth, physical infidelity triggers many here but I have never thought for one second that people here come and spend their time just to 'mess' with people. Everyone here IMO is trying to help. Some cut to the chase, others coddle. There is no conspiracy here to hurt A1. If anything is hurting A1, it's the attacks between posters. What his wife did is extremely evil. There is no belittling of that

Fifth, I would agree that some should read through before hitting the submit button as some posts do come out a bit hard but do so only after putting yourself in A1's shoes. I am about the truth, not about hiding the truth behind some flowers and roses version of it. I tried to be political in my long response yesterday. There is a medium here.

People say that SI has changed. The tolerance police think they are all moderators on this board now. Let the Mods do their job. They are the pros and a really good set of them. If anything goes over the line, I am sure PMs will go out. That is more acceptable than a string of 5 or 6 posts telling everyone how horrible they are

Also, PLEASE don’t solicit advice about lawyers, separation agreements, alimony, and credit cards in this forum - post your questions in Divorce/Separation. Many there seriously know what they’re doing.

Edited to add:

I cross-posted with Bigger. Some of what he says is exactly what you would hear in the Divorce/Separation forum.

[This message edited by hpv50 at 3:41 AM, November 20th (Monday)]

And now other posters are getting told what they think.....incredible.

I think that AO has enough to allow him to process multiple opinions and apply them at a pace reflecting his unique situation.

AO, just know that each poster here cares a lot about your outcome and tend to approach this help both with passion and from a place of their own unique experiences.

It’s an incredible tool that you have. Even a single IC will hit you with a single view. What you have here is effectively a crowd sourced tool that can make each of your jumbled emotions material. There is a lot of good stuff here for you to consume in your own way.

We are rooting for you very hard

Well said western.

"It should be about the degree to which you connect. How that connection is made is irrelevant"? "So the issue is she cheated. Not how she cheated".

Unfortunately when the "connection" is brought into the marital home and bed.....sorry it does become relevant (maybe not to everyone but another poster mentioning it to AO IMO is part of things that he should consider).

agreed Booyah.

IMO every single day and every single time she cheated, she made the conscious decision to cheat and I treat each as an individual episode. This man has been cheated on over 2000 times IMO.

Length of time (9 years), magnitude (every day and abuse of their position as a trusted SAHD/SAHM), the degrading actions (doing things for the other that they don't do for their BS, in their bed, talking about running away, potentially neglecting the kids), the hiding of it afterwards, the toxic friends ............ all matters. These are sad turths, they aren't being graphic and they aren't putting it in his face. They are real truths that he has to face when he looks at what really happened.

To me, there are levels of cheating, degrees, and I focus on the future of people. Where is A1 going to be in 10 years if he reconciles ? Where is he going to be in 10 years if he doesn't ? And based on his ability to take decisive action, I can certainly see that he is a man who can enjoy himself and move on with his life if he so chooses.

Most people could never and will never get over a long term affair like the one he faced and the magnitude of it. I wouldn't dare to even suggest to A1 that the possibility of R is there although if he would choose to do so, just like a great poster here Jbrent has, I would be fully supportive. if he chooses to D, then I support that and she will get what she deserves.

I just see a man spending his golden years being reminded and tortured every day of what happened when he still has time to rebuild and enjoy his life otherwise.

That is my opinion, one of which I am entitled to.

otter I hear what you are saying but I disagree one some level. Imagine if you are the spouse and you learn that your wife did things with another man that she never did with you sexually. How would that make you feel? How would that effect your self esteem? You said:

For all you know one man suggested it and another did not. Or one man made her feel more comfortable about her suggesting it.

What if he did? And how hurt would you be if you learn that your spouse was more comfortable with another man over you?

I agree having an affair is the terrible. Having a connection with someone is worst. I would want my wife to love me and want to be with me as well. And I would not resent her for not letting me stick it her butt. But I would resent the fact that she let someone stick it in her butt. Very much so. So the issue is that she cheated AND how she cheated. It is all damaging.

At work so this will be short. No one has ever accused me of being deeply in touch with my feelings. I am a pretty reserved guy and very uncomfortable opening up about my emotions. I suspect that my rush to “fix” things is a default to my problem solving subconscious and an attempt to box away the horrible feelings of last week. I am going to ask around for recommendations on therapists. I don’t envy the one I pick...I probably won’t be a particularly easy patient.

I also want to point out that I haven’t made a decision to divorce. Because of the very lengthy separation period mandated by my state prior to divorce, I want to start the process early. As far as I understand things, being separated doesn’t box me into any kind of decision. Part of my profession is preparing for multiple outcomes without limiting options. Perhaps I am approaching this situation too analytically, but that is how my brain works.

It's a GREAT approach.

Strength

Well said A1.

My opinion is that the best move you've made for yourself, at the deepest level, is being honest with your children and maintaining that contact. You will be able to mutual support each other on a level that you each need. Have Thanksgiving with them. Let them love on you. And you will show them you r love and thanks.

BS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:02 AM, November 20th (Monday)]

Perhaps I am approaching this situation too analytically, but that is how my brain works

That's the best way, actually. Emotions aren't the best advisers in such cases. Think rationally, and let emotions trickle in later (well, you cannot keep them inside forever, it will kill you).

Analysis is one thing how I handle triggers and mind movies - when I have one, initially I let myself to feel the pain, but later I turn it into questions and try to analyse/understand it. It helps.

IC's are used to "not a particularly easy patient."

If IC tells you something like "This is in the past, a distant past, think about the future" then walk away without second glance. Bad IC almost led me to suicide.

So make sure your separation meets the legal requirements set by your state if you want the security of it being accounted in the time needed to finalize a divorce. As has been pointed out then legal advice on SI is possibly they worst advice to follow, but it can at least point to what you need to research.

I don’t think you can go into a court a year from today and use last Friday (when your WW left for her sister) as the formal start of separation.

My point holds true that no matter what the goal is or form of separation you want then your wife does have a say. It must be discussed and negotiated.

I would also suggest that if this is a separation so that you can better realize what you want then the two of you put in place some form of agreement regarding the goal of the separation and what is and isn’t expected of each other during that period. Typically, that includes things like clearing finances, financial commitments that might affect both (such as buying/selling assets), whether you see other people and the extent of your communications and interactions.

I strongly suggest you use your most valuable asset – time. Your WW is out of the house and you have the space you need. Spending 1-2 weeks assessing your situation, clarifying your finances, valuing things… This is time well spent that will give you better focus.