SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I see a news story this morning about mothers of the child survivors of the Robb Elementary shooting in Uvalde, TX. It talks about them desperately wanting to see the footage of what happened to their children, even though it is horrifying and traumatic. It really made me think of the question here about how much detail to go into in discovery. I personally believe because of the sexual nature of our trauma that outsiders would look at our desire to know what happened as "unseemly" and just a taudry peep show meant to shame the wayward. But this example shows, outside of sexual context, the deep desire to just understand the events of your life. The mothers consented to the risk of being traumatized, they had trauma counselors available, and they watched it. Who knows if that helped them or not, but they got to choose and no one would accuse them of being out of bounds. Anyone got John Gottman’s email address?

InkHulk said:

It really made me think of the question here about how much detail to go into in discovery. I personally believe because of the sexual nature of our trauma that outsiders would look at our desire to know what happened as "unseemly" and just a taudry peep show meant to shame the wayward. But this example shows, outside of sexual context, the deep desire to just understand the events of your life.

This really resonates with me: "to just understand the events of your life". That has been my biggest struggle and my main goal through all of this horrible journey. I go into my story in more detail in the "I can relate: found out years later part 2" thread on SI. As this indicates, I suspected my WW of cheating many years ago but she always lied. After early retirement a couple of years ago, "how many times did she really cheat" started eating away at me so I finally asked. This was met with minimization, outright lies and trickle truth. So on top of cheating on me with multiple APs for the first 20 years of our marriage, she lied by omission for 18 more years, then outright lies for a few more months while "coming clean". IMO, these betrayals are as bad as the actual cheating and cover our entire marriage. And due to "I don’t remember" and "I don’t know", I STILL don’t have a complete picture of what my life was like. My goal is to take the timelines of her infidelities and lay them over our lives. How was the marriage? What was I doing at this time? How do she treat me?

I’m also not looking for all the positions and so forth. Mainly I am looking for the "basics": "When and how did it start, when did it become physical, how many times did you have sex and what type (oral/intercourse), when, how and why did it end"? My WW had 4 LTAs lasting 6 months or more (based on painstakingly piercing together rough timelines) yet can’t (or won’t) provide these "basics" for any of the 4. We have done a polygraph. She either doesn’t remember or is good enough to bury this and beat the poly.

My goal was to "get out of my head" and "understand the true history of my life". I have more info than I did. My suspicions were correct. It’s WAY worse than I imagined. There are still huge holes that keep me "in my head". It’s been like watching a video with glitches, that cuts out entirely when the most important parts come up and leaves me with an incomplete and incoherent story.

My WW suffers with extreme guilt, shame and intimacy avoidance. It frustrates me to no end she can do these things (in some cases with basically strangers), yet can’t rationally discuss them with her supposed "life partner of 42 years".

People have asked "do you regret asking and not getting the full picture"? I have struggled with that but the answer is "no". I know more about my life than I did. An incomplete picture is still better than total ignorance.

That sounds so fucking brutal, ImAChump. And I don’t think you are.

Another thought this morning: she got a major tattoo signifying getting free of the affair all while continuing to hold to these immense lies. I just don’t even know what I can believe from her. Would a polygraph even do anything if she came around and started the Herculean efforts? There is a part of me that is having a hard time not holding to a burning ember of hope and most of me telling that other part, "knock it the fuck off!"

You should get a tattoo too. A tattoo that signifies your freedom from your wayward wife.

InkHulk, what reason did your wife give you for confessing? I apologize if you've gone over this before; I just don't recall that bit of information.

To your answer about why did she confess if she was going to continue lying, a WS usually confesses because they believe that discovery is imminent (caught by OBS, kids found racy messages on their phone, spotted in public with AP, sexual harassment suit to HR, etc). They want to get ahead of the story and do damage control before the BS learns anything on their own.

But even in the probably <1% of cases where a confession is prompted by guilt, the WS's selfishness and focus on self-preservation is still intact. They want to relieve their own emotional burden without any thought or care as to how they will manage the emotional burden of the BS. They assume they can get away with admitting to only the bare minimum of what they think the BS is able to prove.

In all cases, the WS relies on the implicit trust and unquestioning faith and love from the BS that enabled them to have an affair in the first place to shield them from the fallout of discovery. Even if its subconscious, the thought process probably works like this: "He believed me when I said I was out grocery shopping all day and I didn't answer my phone because my battery died; he'll believe me when I say that we always used a condom."

The WS probably also think that if they stonewall long enough, the BS will just get tired of asking and the questions will stop. More often than not, sadly, that's a good bet.

You really threw your wife a loop last week. I don't think that she ever seriously entertained the idea that you might divorce her. She thought she could continue to "chaff and redirect" (ie, distract you with meaningless garbage) to avoid answering your questions. You never pushed her on providing evidence to back up her claims and disclosures, and (as far as I know) you really didn't do much digging independently. She certainly never fathomed that you would pointedly ask your daughter about her communications with OM.

I think, for the first time in your marriage, your wife feels like she's no longer in control. Her wheels are spinning in overdrive now and she's freaking out about what else you might find, hence the new revelations.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:47 PM, Monday, May 22nd]

I genuinely want to get my Hulk tattoo. It would be about me. If I’m divorcing her, I don’t want to put that on my body.

How are you doing, Ink? Are you also in IC? I think you and your kids should go out this week and spend some jolly time together. This could be a much needed distraction to you and also an opportunity to see how your kids are really doing after the disclosure. You really need a break now.

How are you doing, Ink? Are you also in IC? I think you and your kids should go out this week and spend some jolly time together. This could be a much needed distraction to you and also an opportunity to see how your kids are really doing after the disclosure. You really need a break now.

Thanks for the caring question, Lurking. The best I can say is I’m functional. I am at risk of breaking out into ugly cries at about any moment, but I’m going to try to go to work today. I’m posting these intellectual pieces because that is my distraction of choice when beer isn’t advisable. I’m going to give my kids as much time as I can, and I’m prioritizing that over finding a divorce lawyer immediately, or even figuring out more logistics of housing and other awful stuff like that. I’m in no rush at the moment.
I am in IC, have been for most of this time. I have a time today, get the tissues ready. I’m hoping to tell some of this and get some references for resources for my DD. Just keep breathing….

Would a polygraph even do anything if she came around and started the Herculean efforts?

You only get a couple questions on the polygraph and they need to be really straight forward. You basically have to know what you're looking for beforehand if the results are going to be remotely useful.

A question like "Are you hiding anything else than what you've already told me?" isn't likely to be productive. She might fail the question because she's lying or because she's nervous about whether she forgot something. Or she might pass because she compartmentalizes well and thinks the worst is already out.

I know things got worse than it was. But, you will get through this. I know you will. I will be praying for you.

InkHulk, what reason did your wife give you for confessing? I apologize if you've gone over this before; I just don't recall that bit of information.

I think this is going to be a long answer. I have given some ideas on it before, but for my own purposes I’m going to dive into my best understanding of it and see if I can integrate that with these new events.

The story I tell myself starts with the summer that she went on the trip with them. It was the early part of the summer and the trip probably represented something in my mind, though I didn’t recognize it at the time. This is 2 plus years into the affair, and I was feeling that something was off, often complaining to my best friend about my M, but never fathoming an A. The trip happened over my strong objections and I think I felt like I was losing her. I didn’t want that, and so for the rest of that summer I pursued her like she was the Queen of England. Flowers, dates, poems, housework, constant attention. Full force pursuit, and she absolutely ate it up. We called it our "Summer of Love", I told my best friend that we had fallen back in love all over again, and he looked at me like I was crazy. (To look back now and realize she was still in the A, even if it wasn’t physical {and who the fuck knows now with all these lies} at that time is a betrayal in and of itself). It was a period of exceptionalism that showed us what we could be together.

But like a drug, eventually my efforts and affections stopped being so effective. She didn’t react as strongly, and eventually stopped reacting at all. I can remember the night in bed literally pleading with her to not let the light in her eyes go back out, but that flame did die and I was despondent. It was then that I really started looking into what could be so wrong with us. I started looking at things I could think of, and her old college boyfriend was something I was always suspicious of but she would never talk about it. I went into a period of retroactive jealousy that I talked about in my JFO thread. I read her old diaries, I grilled her and wouldn’t take no for an answer and eventually came to realize that she had been sexually assaulted by him as opposed to just a regrettable sexual relationship.

So now things were looking up. We had this period of exceptionalism to give us a vision of a beautiful relationship. We had this new understanding of suppressed trauma that we could attack in therapy that seemed to explain a lot of our issues. But something still wasn’t quite right.

As you have all seen, my wife is incredibly conflict avoidant, and that led to her holding things in when I wrong her and not telling me about it, but absolutely holding grudges and resentments. And so then I took it on myself to try to mind read and figure out what was left blocking our intimacy. I came back to something that I had apologized for in the past and she had told me she completely forgave me for and there was nothing to be talked about. But I reframed it as something larger, a significant wrong, and she was moved by that. I think my throwing myself on the sword like that made her feel more guilty and she also believed that with that in the air that this would be her one chance to confess and I might forgive her.

So to summarize, I do believe that she wanted a beautiful relationship with me, she wanted what we just had that summer. And, oh man, I wanted it too (with her putting as much in as I was). She knew that A would forever be something that would extinguish the light in her eyes and she saw a chance to unload it, and she did it with half measures.

And that’s all I have to say about that.

Lurkingsoul12:

You should get a tattoo too. A tattoo that signifies your freedom from your wayward wife.

/thread

The desire to understand the A is natural for many of us. No matter how much info one gets, however, IMO the BS never understands the way they want to. That doesn't keep us from trying, though.

Ex-historian here.

*****

My W decided to end her A and to stop lying during a sleepless night. She reacted negatively to something the next morning. I ask a clicheed question. She revealed her A, because she had committed to herself to stop lying. All the info I asked for since then fits into the outline she gave me then - no TT, just more info that filled in gaps.

So why continue to lie after confessing? IDK, but I suspect that some WSes may withhold info because they don't think it's relevant or important enough. That leaves it up to the BS to decide how to respond.

Does she now regret her decision to confess considering how difficult (understandably and rightfully) her life has become now? Considering all the bad choices she made selfishly and without thinking through, she might see this confession as her another poor choice she made without thinking far. I am sure she didn't realize how much harder her life would become after this confession. I don't think her confession came with the intent of restoring your agency and saving this marriage by doing whatever it takes. It came through her selfish intent to ease her guilt. She was expecting you to forgive her immediately, rugsweep everything, and move on. You were practically treating her like a queen. You were doing everything you could to win her back and ignite the passion she had lost for you. In other words, pick me dance.This dance happened before Dday and without your knowledge of her affair. In her mind, she felt she was the prize. She saw you desperate enough and believed you would forgive her and rugsweep her affair. That's why she chose this particular moment to confess. I believe this is true to most WS who confess on their own. They confess when they believe their partner will forgive and rugsweep everything. In their mind, they are the prize, and BS will rugsweep everything to win the prize. But, this is another one of their irrational thinking.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 5:21 PM, Monday, May 22nd]

I do think that she looks at her rugsweeping approach as the proper and right way to "forgive", even though it results in issues going unresolved, resentments being formed, and intimacy being squashed. This is the "cheap grace" that was mentioned before, and I think the church culture that my wife and I are in does a lot to foster it and it’s a shame.

And that was a pretty impressive take right in the moment, Lurking. Might need to switch my IC to you

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:08 PM, Monday, May 22nd]

Are you SURE there isn't even more she has not confessed. Because I sure as hell wouldn't be!

Your WW only strikes me as "conflict-avoidant" in that in any potential conflict between yourself and her, she wants *you* to always cave, thereby avoiding the conflict! Keep in mind that she also knows that should you and she D, most other men would not dare commit to her. She is what they call a bad risk!

There could even be the possibility that your WW confessed because she wanted to distract you from her (your WW) putting your DD in touch with creepy-as-fuck AP.

Are you SURE there isn't even more she has not confessed. Because I sure as hell wouldn't be!

Are you even reading what I say? (It’s nice to get back to antagonistic with you, it just feels more familiar )

Your WW only strikes me as "conflict-avoidant" in that in any potential conflict between yourself and her, she wants *you* to always cave, thereby avoiding the conflict! Keep in mind that she also knows that should you and she D, most other men would not dare commit to her. She is what they call a bad risk!

Even with all this, I have absolutely no desire for a poor life for her. I deeply hope that she figures out why she would do all this, corrects it, and has a wonderful fulfilling life.

There could even be the possibility that your WW confessed because she wanted to distract you from her (your WW) putting your DD in touch with creepy-as-fuck AP.

She had much easier options to do that than confess.

Your description of the Summer of Love is heartbreaking. You knew something was wrong, you felt like she was slipping away, and you pulled out all the stops to win her back. I think once you've had enough time and distance from this period in your marriage, you wouldn't think of it as blissful period of exceptionalism but a cruel game of psychological control on her part.

In her mind, she felt she was the prize. She saw you desperate enough and believed you would forgive her and rugsweep her affair. That's why she chose this particular moment to confess. I believe this is true to most WS who confess on their own. They confess when they believe their partner will forgive and rugsweep everything. In their mind, they are the prize, and BS will rugsweep everything to win the prize. But, this is another one of their irrational thinking.

100% agree with LurkingSoul about this. As I mentioned in a comment earlier in this thread, your wife seems to have what some call "main character syndrome." She is the protagonist of her own romantic drama; everyone else plays a supporting role. She thought she could confess the bare minimum and then manage the outcome afterward.

She's probably freaking out now because it's the first time that she has recognized that you have your own agency as a man and that you're willing to act on it.

Yes, she has certainly been deQueenified, and it’s not yet clear whether she will accept lesser status with some grace. She remains a less than solid impression, continually shifting shape, compared with OP, but something more definable will surely emerge…