SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Never give any guaranty. You need a full divorce in order to take your life back. If you want to give her a "maybe we can try after the divorce is completed", then do that but never ever fully commit and don't give your word to anything except getting yourself free. If, after a divorce you feel like meeting with her, there's no harm in that but ensure that you protect yourself always. You should also, after the divorce, date other women if you have opportunities. By giving yourself other options and comparisons, you may realize that overall, your WW never was that great. That may ultimately be why she's afraid of divorce; you might find that she never was worth it.

If she fights you over the divorce, then realize that she's not repentant, she's not willing to do 'anything' (like she said she was) to fix the relationship, and she's again putting herself and her wants first in spite of what you need and want (just like she did when she was screwing the other man). If she fights you, she's not fighting for you, she's fighting against you and for her self-centered self.

All of this was her choice. She chose this life; she chose these consequences. As always, stay strong. You are the prize. You are worth the effort it takes to take your life back. I wish the best for you.

[This message edited by Dismayed2012 at 10:36 AM, August 17th (Monday)]

So we did talk this morning, she started by justifying her call to the OM but I had to stop her and explained that I cared less about the fact that she called him back and that my problem was that she had a 2 years physical and emotional A with him. She wanted me to let our Daughter listen to it because she is not believing her story and wanted to prove to her that she didn’t call him to reignite the A. I told her that first I don’t have a copy of the recording and second, I do not want to involve Emily again in our problems, I also promised to talk to her so she stops attacking her mom.

Second part of the conversation was about her rephrasing her apologies, she said that she read multiple books and now has a better understanding of my feelings and her wrong doings. She said that her affair was 100% on her and it was a symptom of her bad state of mind that she’s been having for the last 4 years. She said pastor helped her understand this and suggested she seeks professional therapy. She did reach out to few therapists but hasn’t heard back form any of them. She realizes she is broken and needs to fix herself. I told her I was glad she is taking these steps. She also informed me that she is close to getting a job in a property management field, they already interviewed her 3 times online. And they would call her for a final sit-down interview, she explained that while she likes her job, she understands the necessity to quit it at this moment.

After that it was my time to talk, I explained that this whole experience changed me and I’m still trying to figure out myself, I told her that a divorce is an opportunity for both of us to restart our lives. I admitted that there were many things I was doing wrong and I myself need to work on my flaws and might need professional therapy too. I explained to her that it will be hard for me to do that while dealing with lack of trust, humiliation, and knowledge that I wasn’t good enough as a husband to her. I told her that she killed my pride and my self-confidence. At this time she was trying to interrupt me saying things like I wasn’t inferior and shouldn’t be humiliated and that nothing I did made her have an A, but I insisted That a D is the only solution and if we can do it amicably without hurting each other would be for the best.

Here comes the dilemma, she said she wants a chance to prove she can be a safe, loving and loyal partner. And want to prove it by acts not talks. She is willing to give out all her rights to both of our properties for a last chance to reconcile. I told her what that means she said to give her a year to work on us. I explained to her that this wasn’t practical because one year isn’t gonna be enough to reconcile specially in our case where we both have issues to work on. I told her it won’t be fair for her either and that I won’t accept more than a fair share.

She insisted that she knows how bad her situation is , and that losing her family is a lot worse than loosing money plus she wants to prove with acts to me and our kids that she only wants us by acts a not just cheap talk. She also assured me that regardless she would never go after my business because it is for me and our son’s future. She also said that she wants to live in our house the rest of her life with or without me. I gotta talk to my lawyer and rethink things, I do not want to file on the ground of adultery, but she isn’t gonna agree to a consensual D, at least not now. Which is my dilemma. Her offer is tempting but I will never take her part no matter how bad she treated me she was a partner in everything we bought and achieved.

So here I’am back to reality with more to think about. And BTW she gave me a hug from the back, just wrapped her arms around me and said I’m sorry “AHGuy”, can't deny the fact that for a second or two I liked her touch but I didn't respond just stood there for the few seconds that hug lasted.

Is there a way you could have some sort of quitclaim, where she is allowed to own and live in the house for the rest of her life, but if she dies it goes directly to you and the kids, OR, if she remarries she must pay you 1/2 the equity or sell the house and give you half the proceeds? Do it in such a way where you always have some claim on the property.

AH,

She was selfish, thinking only of herself for at least 2 years. You need to do what is best for you and if it means you need to be selfish now, then so be it.

I get the sense that you are a moral person and want to be more than fair, but no-one could morally hold it against you if you have to take something less than the absolute high road right now.

If you need to file on the grounds of adultery and that is the quickest way for you out of infidelity, then I'm afraid I have to say, so be it.

Even though my formerly wayward wife agreed to my terms of the divorce, I still filed on the basis of adultery. Why wouldn't I? That was the reason. She agreed to it. That went a long way toward starting the process that your wife wants to start.

You appear to be a man of character. It is not difficult to make a commitment to try on the basis of honor and sincerity. There are no guarantees in life as to whether or not even the most sincere efforts will work. But it is certainly reasonable and genuine to make such an agreement, with the stipulation that she agrees to a D under your conditions. Agree between the two of you on whatever you need to, regarding the house and write it into the D.

It is no more difficult to reconcile after D, if that is what you both want to commit to do.

AHGuy, the offer is about money, and I think what you said was extremely honorable. In your case, if your intent is to split the assets amicably and in a fair division, that offer from her means nothing. You were never going to take her to the cleaner anyway.

I believe, in your heart you are still wavering on giving her a chance, even though you said a couple of pages back that you are set, and intent on D. I think you need to decide for yourself what you want to do. You've gotten a ton of good advice here, but ultimately, we can only guide you based upon your choice.

I still think that no matter if you choose to stay with her or not, now is the TIME to get the divorce done. You see, right now, she is guilty and feels extreme regret. I don't know if she is remorseful yet, although it sounds like she's getting there. RIGHT NOW, she is promising a fair and amicable divorce. You take that right now. Get it done without attorneys in a fair way. You can then decide to stay with her and let her work on the marriage after. You take that offer while its on the table. You NEVER KNOW when she may change her mind. So take the amicable D, no matter what you choice, and if you want to try and reconcile, at the very least you don't have to worry about a bad Divorce in the future.

Well, you certainly have something to think about now.

Take your time and let this continue to sink in.

If you feel like D is still your only answer, then proceed. Otherwise, give her time to prove herself. It will be a long road as first she has to find what is broken within her and fix it before she can start proving it to you.

Either route, I wish you well.

She insisted that she knows how bad her situation is , and that losing her family is a lot worse than loosing money plus she wants to prove with acts to me and our kids that she only wants us by acts a not just cheap talk.

If she wants to take an action that would demonstrate true remorse, that would be giving you a divorce and allowing you space to heal. If she's dangling offers of giving you a better deal if you reconcile, that strikes me as quite manipulative in light of everything she has done to you already.

Also she continues to try to spin doctor her adultery. Bad sign. Look, the call DOES matter insofar as she was spinning you on how she'd broken things off but STILL called him the SAME day she wrote that long-winded blame-shifting email. All that was happening the same day. She was taking those actions contemporaneously. So it matters insofar as it demonstrates someone who isn't really remorseful and is just trying to spin her way out of the trap she sprung on herself.

Real remorse includes not just transparency and the full truth, but at least some form of recompense.

Has she taken any action to write down a full narrative timeline of the affair? Read Linda McDonald's book? Given you a list of qualified polygraph examiners she can be tested with? Has she taken a full STD panel?

A true remorseful spouse would understand that continuing to push for reconciliation in light of the facts is a selfish act, that it puts you in the position of having to consider a very bad investment. She could put her money where her mouth is and arrange for a consensual fair divorce.

That's real remorse.

And I'm gonna say something else: It's pretty obvious you are the far, far better man here. It shines through your words. That's the objective, empirical truth. You're the better man.

However, that isn't what SHE thought 10 seconds ago essentially. In the blink of an eye you can go back only a short time ago and she thought YOU were inferior and she was trying to branch swing over to Mr. Millionaire and openly tearing you down verbally and in texts to him while she was planning it. She was fantasizing about a life with him and giving him her sexual best. She was putting almost all of her time and energy into that instead of putting her time and energy into a lifelong commitment with the better man.

Now that's the truth. And we're not talking about a fickle 19 year old girl here. We're talking about a grown-ass middle aged woman.

Now just think about that. Saying "I'm sorry" doesn't even get close to rectifying that level of betrayal. Just sayin'

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:43 PM, August 17th (Monday)]

I'm sure you will get some great advice from everyone here who has been chiming in. But her offer is STILL ABOUT HER. She still does not care what is best for you or what you are literally asking for. She would rather get her way than let you take the lead on this.

This is beyond infuriating and you should not cave to anything she is asking. If she is really reading and truly remorseful, she will give up control. So far she isn't willing to give up anything and she still very much prioritizes what she wants over what is good for you, even when you tell her directly what you want and what will help you heal.

Continue to repeat yourself and tell her what you want. Do not let her take control from you. Move forward with what YOU want and don't let her delay or dissuade you.

She is desperate to save HERSELF and maybe one day she will see her selfishness for what it is, but for now, you should do what's best for you because she will not.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 1:42 PM, August 17th (Monday)]

Oops double post

[This message edited by clouds777 at 1:41 PM, August 17th (Monday)]

Insofar as helping you make a decision, one of the things I did was to visualize a worst case scenario after a divorce: Me living in a shitty apartment, sleeping on a futon, driving a rust bucket car. I did this and was very specific about visualizing it. What did I feel? Not great, not overjoyed, but I did feel RELIEF. I felt free. And I felt fine.

Maybe your experience with that kind of visualization would be different. But that was one of the things that helped me make a decision. Keep in mind I spent more than 3 years in limbo, and I'm still not divorced. My WW says she doesn't want divorce, so I will have to drag her along essentially and do most of the work. But I'm willing to do it.

Ask yourself what you would REALLY be getting out of staying with her. Maybe it's a lot. Only you can answer that. I do know that, unfortunately, every time you look at her forevermore you will think about the time she arranged for you to fix a heater so she could be comfortable in a f*ckpad with Mr. Millionaire. That's not going away, sad to say. It won't be magically scrubbed from your mind, short of a lobotomy.

Think about it.

"...she said she wants a chance to prove she can be a safe, loving and loyal partner. And want to prove it by acts not talks. She is willing to give out all her rights to both of our properties for a last chance to reconcile. I told her what that means she said to give her a year to work on us. I explained to her that this wasn’t practical because one year isn’t gonna be enough..."

You are correct. A year isn't enough. This looks tempting but a year is a long time for her to change her mind if she feels that you aren't making enough of an effort or if she gets tired and resentful for putting her efforts in. There's also still the other man who's now available and who could again woo her away at which point she may decide she wants everything you have. Your best chance at getting out of this hopefully slightly unscathed is now. This window of opportunity won't be open for very long.

If she's truly desiring to show her changed heart through action then she should be willing to submit to an immediate amicable divorce whether she wants it or not. After the divorce she can chase you and try to win you back but until she shows through action that she's willing to sacrifice everything, including being branded as a divorced woman, she's not safe, loving, or loyal.

If you want to give Reconciliation a try then do it but I wouldn't agree to any sort of time frame. You might start this and know within a week it can't work or within a few months. There is no magic in a specific date so if you decide to try this don't give a date at all and establish the rules that you want and need to even try.

I agree with beenthereinco. You should only consider R if you are totally in. And this is something you need to explain to your WW.

she said she wants a chance to prove she can be a safe, loving and loyal partner. And want to prove it by acts not talks. She is willing to give out all her rights to both of our properties for a last chance to reconcile.

So her desire to R is more important to her than your desire to D so you can heal? I don't think she understands that R only works if both parties are completely committed. And right now, it appears that you are not, and that is OK.

Often we see BS's who want to R with their WS, who isn't interested, and the statement is made that one person can't fix the M and that person can't force the other person to stay in the M (or to love them). Things just don't work that way. In this case, your WW is the one trying to force to fix the M when you are not. Your reasons for wanting D are completely valid and justified in not offering R. Your WW needs to come to accept this. Hopefully her IC will help her see this.

AH,

I may be completely wrong , but I think she is reading here. You should go back through your posts and edit out names. She seems to be focusing on specific aspects.

If she is reading here, she's getting a real insight as to your inner most thoughts. Therefore she is working the angles.

Either way, if she were truly remorseful, she would give you the amicable divorce you desire. She won't truly learn about remorse from reading a book over just a few weeks. It's like she's learning the script and then following it.

The only person R benefits is her.

Thumos - "I do know that, unfortunately, every time you look at her forevermore you will think about the time she arranged for you to fix a heater so she could be comfortable in a f*ckpad with Mr. Millionaire. That's not going away, sad to say. It won't be magically scrubbed from your mind, short of a lobotomy."

My ex asked me one day if I could stop over at a guy 'friend' of her's house to help him fix the back window in his car; it wouldn't role down. She gave me directions and I naively stopped over and helped him. How did she know about his back window? She was fu**ing him in his back seat in July. They got to enjoy a cross-breeze the next day and for several more weeks until their cover finally got blown.

Thumos is correct. The memory doesn't go away. Every time you see the person, it's right there in your face. And that's only one of the monkeys that may take up residence on your back.

Freedom solved this issue for me.

and knowledge that I wasn’t good enough as a husband to her.

Do you mean this? Is this what you believe?

FWIW, I lived almost exactly as Thumos described in his worst case scenario for about three years while I dug myself out of the debt my wife incurred, paid her $32000 a year in child support and worked 3 jobs. It was worth it.

I knew that when I got home at night, I would not be attacked and criticized. My kids had a safe place to come to, away from her madness and the OM.

Not to beat a dead horse, but, in essence, your wife was perfectly comfortable lying for years, leading a double life, mocking you etc.

Do you really think someone capable of that is a good risk going forward? If things had worked out with the OM, you wo yo ld be history.

She also said that she wants to live in our house the rest of her life with or without me. I gotta talk to my lawyer and rethink things, I do not want to file on the ground of adultery, but she isn’t gonna agree to a consensual D, at least not now. Which is my dilemma. Her offer is tempting but I will never take her part no matter how bad she treated me she was a partner in everything we bought and achieved.

She most likely wants to keep that house for appearances, if I remember correctly you mentioned you needed the house for your business, I would counter with something like this:

1) The old M has to get its "death certificate" that's the D decree.

2) You keep the family house and she keeps the rental but she would have to move out.

3) Everything else gets split 50/50.

4) You promise to go to IC and she needs to do the same for at least 1 year, if eventually you get to the point where you want to have sex with her again make sure she knows it would be on a FWB basis with no guarantees (make sure she shows you her STD test results), and that even after that 1st year you could date other people should you want to, but she could not (she already did it behind your back). After the two year mark (the length of her A) you could make the decision to allow her back in the house but that doesn't mean you will remarry her, that you may even decide to be exclusive and live with her but that remarrying her may never happen.

5) If this wasn't her first rodeo she needs to come clean NOW and will be subject to more than one polygraph tests that she will have to pay for if needed.

6) Needless to say if POSOM resumes trying to contact her in any form, she should ignore him, block him and tell you immediately.

7) The church gang is NOT to intervene in anyway, she may consult the pastor but you are not to be pressured to meet with him or anyone else.

Of course you can add more to it should you need to but that's what I would do if I was in your shoes and based on what you have posted.

Edited for formatting purposes.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 3:08 PM, August 17th (Monday)]

I think you should go with what you know vs what you don't know. Again, don't overcomplicate this:

1. You know she's not telling you everything about this affair.

2. You know there's a likelihood it went on longer or was even more involved than she has told you.

3. You know she wanted to leave you for him and planned on it until it became clear she was a side piece.

4. You know she was willing to subject you to the worst levels of pain and humiliation a woman can visit on a man.

5. You know afterwards she still contacted him after promising not to on the SAME DAY she was crafting a childish email to you to try to blameshift onto you.

6. You know she's willing to give her sexual best to another man for more than 700 days without blinking an eye.

7. You know she is now selfishly insisting on "reconciliation" without even considering your feelings and trying to use property and assets as a bargaining chip to force your hand.

8. You know she was willing to deploy your own church community against you.

9. You know she is still trying to drag you into triangulation dramas with your kids, who are rightly furious with her.

10. You know she says she wants to prove what a great wife she can be, but she's already shown you exactly what a horrible wife SHE IS.

You decide what to do with those facts.

You don't know if she's a safe bet. You don't know if she's just telling you what she hopes you want to hear now about ten seconds after she was planning to branch swing with a rich man. You don't know if this was her first rodeo, but it seems dubious considering the tatting up and all the GNO activity. Sort of strains credulity that she'd never been inappropriate with another man in those 3-4 years before the affair with OM allegedly began.

You know she was already putting out signals and acting like a single woman a few years before this affair allegedly began.

You don't know a hell of a lot. But what you do know is she dropped equivalent of a radioactive dirty bomb on you and now wants to paper over it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:55 PM, August 17th (Monday)]