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^^^ This is me…and I totally get it. Obviously I think in shades of gray…so I even see nuances in the concept of "talking politics". Honestly, I didn’t realize/remember how specifically clear the guideline was - and that’s completely on me. I also appreciate the purpose of such a clear guideline.

W2B - My apologies to you for a discussion that ran the risk of potentially shutting your thread down. ❤️

Yeah, once I figured out what you were talking about, I realized there would be no way to discuss it without religion and politics. I will only say that I know people, smart people, who are wound up in this conspiracy theory and it harms their ability to lead a normal life and everything gets somehow related to it. So be careful as you can with that. Sometimes a thing is just what it appears to be. A virus is a virus. If you have a certain worldview, everything falls into potential conspiracy theories and everything is a lot scarier and it's hard to make decisions on things. If we were sitting together somewhere in a park we could no doubt talk about this for hours and hours. In some ways, it's something that I clawed my way out of and I know the psychological impact of it. So believe it or not, I have sat with you in this, just at a different point in my life. I totally get you now and you have all of my empathy. I understand your fear and wish I could grab your hand and squeeze it.

zebra25...thank you for your clarification .

I would also like to add that I am generally very quiet in person yet for doing nothing other than wearing a mask while in a crowd because I thought it was the right thing to do for me and others, I was mocked. I never said a word about what anybody else was doing and I don't have SM so I do not vocalize my feelings there either. Unfortunately people on all sides of this can be rude and unkind.

I agree that people on ALL sides can be rude and unkind and I am saddened to see that you were mocked for taking care of your health.

Ariopolis...thank you for your post...and for asking about the life altering reactions to the vaccines that my family members had. I very much APPRECIATE your concern . I can't post about it on here because I want to try and keep my anonymity. I am VERY vocal about it on my social media posts...and I have no way of knowing WHO has seen my posts from those sites and may also be on this site. I was REALLY hoping that some of the healthcare workers on this site could post about some of the issues they see from young and otherwise healthy people who have had life altering reactions from the vaccines because it isn't happening with just MY family members. But I can understand why talking about this could violate confidentiality with hospital patients.

humantrampoline...that is a pretty good question about the social interactions . I am an extrovert...in case anyone didn't know . I am gregarious and LOUD and I LOVE hugging people. It was so HARD to not greet people with hugs when this first started. But I adapted to it because...like you...I want to respect others . I think we can all adapt when we understand what is needed. The issue with your husband's surgery...I hope whatever it is that he needs...he will be able to have. Friends and family of mine have had to deal with this issue as well. One emergency surgery had to be done at a hospital about 3 hours from the regular hospital they normally go to. That was only one case that happened...but it may be more the norm now.

One thing I'm wondering is what is the nature of the statistics on Covid 19 that I am reading? I read in early May, 2021 that the US CDC changed their directives of what US states needed to publish. At that time, several US states stopped including breakthrough cases (those vaccinated with Covid 19 positive) to CDC unless they were hospitalized or deaths.

I tried looking to see if my state did this...but I don't know if they are. That is interesting that it isn't a uniform method for all states.

I thought my question about how MANY masks people are wearing was pretty straightforward...but I would like to know how many masks are y'all wearing. One mask? Two...like I see a lot of people doing now? I believe the most that one health official stated was three. Has anyone ever worn three like the health official suggested?

DevastatedDee...it sounds like you changed your preference of masks because of the recommendations for Omicron? Is that what I am understanding? From the looks of it...I am seeing where people wear their pretty cloth masks over their N95 masks. Maybe your cool ones don't have to be put away .

Can anyone who has expressed reluctance/skepticism to "accept the narrative" and/or is mistrustful that we are being told the truth about vaccine effectiveness and potential adverse effects explain something for me?

To what end? If the scientists and medical professionals who continue to stress the importance of vaccines and mitigation measures are not telling the truth, what is the motivation or plan that you ascribe to them? I am not ridiculing your position, and I'm not trying to shut you up or shut you down. I truly want to understand because I can't. I've been a nurse for 33 years. My parents were both nurses. I've been around hospitals and health care my whole life and have learned more about public health issues than I ever wanted to know. And this is the thing that I just can't grasp.

I am concerned when medical professionals ONLY stress the importance of vaccines and don't talk about the importance of therapeutic treatments as well for those of us who are hesitant to take the vaccine. I am also bothered when just one narrative is talked about. I was able to get so much information before from epidemiologists who had seen patients with life altering reactions from the vaccines like my family members...but a lot of it is now being suppressed. I REALLY don't understand why differing perspectives can't be freely given.

The main reason I have seen from other perspectives being suppressed is because this is called "misinformation" or "disinformation" on certain mainstream media. It is NOT misinformation for MY family for sure! However...there is a LOT of misinformation on BOTH sides. Just last week it was stated by someone who was NOT a medical professional that over 100K children were in "serious condition" in hospitals in the United States because of Covid. That was FALSE. There are only about 3500. ONE child being ill from this virus is too much...but that is a HUGE difference...and even the CDC director was reluctant to clarify it. This type of misinformation doesn't help ANYONE.

I may not have said this before...but THANK YOU grubs for your posts . They are concise...informative...and without prejudice. I am very thankful for you and others on here who have done this !!!

Aw, thank you so very much, Dee! I’m sure we could talk for hours about many subjects…sure hope it wouldn’t just be this one!! But I absolutely understand what you are saying…and appreciate that perspective too.

I had some dark moments in the "rabbit hole"…I really do understand the point you are making there. But I haven’t been in that mindset for a long time. It’s never been the driving narrative and in no way is THE decision maker as I look at day-to-day life. I’m constantly looking for answers that actually make sense. That’s why I frequently emphasize that I am not vaccine resistant…but rather hesitant. It’s a substantial difference.

The only conflict that I feel in reference to this other…the aspect that you call "conspiracy theory"…is do people even know about these other parts? Have they really looked into it, have they been able to find the same kind of info, were they able to evaluate it objectively? I don’t need agreement.

What I find in talking to people - which is always a "wading in" - tends to fall into one of three categories:

1. They have zero clue what I’m talking about.
2. They have some vague idea but think it’s all bunk. (The later part is fine…the first part is what negates that.)
3. They flat out tell me they don’t want to know. (I respect the hell out of these people.)

I don’t profess to KNOW anything. It’s not a "I’m right…you’re wrong." If someone has a resounding stance on something, I’m largely happy to let that stand undebated. I MAY challenge them with a couple of questions to get a reading on their objectivity but that’s about it. The only thing that pulls my strings is when I hear some aspect of "I just don’t understand".

I do hope you understand that any angst I feel comes not from the perspective itself. It is from the unknown aspect of ALL of this. While a "virus can just be a virus" is true…so can the notion that everything is theory until proven true. And we all here already know that we can be living in one reality that later looks completely different in hindsight. The trigger for me is the pieces that don’t make sense…and part of what I have learned to both do and value through my prior experience is to not write any story about it but to instead be open to all potential explanations and wait for more info. It’s the waiting that is so uncomfortable. And that’s especially true when the societal response is not to help resolve the cause of the waiting (or hell, just understand it!)…but rather to put pressure on just obtaining compliance (through all kinds of measures but the least of which not being scapegoating.)

truthsetmefree...no apologies necessary . I am happy to see the Mods doing what they do best and not shutting it down completely . I strongly identify with a LOT of what you are posting...but I strongly identified with vaccines being the end all be all as well...at first. I was so READY to get the vaccine when my time came...and now I am in a limbo that I do NOT want to be in .

DevastatedDee...it sounds like you changed your preference of masks because of the recommendations for Omicron? Is that what I am understanding? From the looks of it...I am seeing where people wear their pretty cloth masks over their N95 masks. Maybe your cool ones don't have to be put away smile .

That's a good idea! I hadn't considered doing that.

What I find in talking to people - which is always a "wading in" - tends to fall into one of three categories:

1. They have zero clue what I’m talking about.
2. They have some vague idea but think it’s all bunk. (The later part is fine…the first part is what negates that.)
3. They flat out tell me they don’t want to know. (I respect the hell out of these people.)

I'm going to give you a 4th. They were raised in it and damned near have PTSD from it, lol.

"I agree that people on ALL sides can be rude and unkind and I am saddened to see that you were mocked for taking care of your health."

Thank you Want2B.

I'm sorry I didn't understand that you were asking how many masks we were wearing at the same time.

I don't wear more than one. I prefer the k-N95 over the cloth ones.

I don't wear more than one. I prefer the k-N95 over the cloth ones.

Me too . They don't get too close to my eyes and I can wear my glasses with that mask and not have them fog up as much.

I wear an N95 or a KN95 mask when I go in public. Right now, it's mainly to a grocery store or Lowes/Home Depot. I have had N95 masks available before or during the early part of the pandemic. We stopped ordering them when asked by the government, but I continued to wear older N95 masks. Maybe that's not effective to wear them repeatedly, but I did. We continued to order N95 or KN 95 masks after the restriction, but honestly that was not a clear demarcation.

My child goes to class at my university and will wear a cloth mask but not an N95 mask. He finds an N95 confining to wear. Ok to me, it's his decision and not mine.

Honestly to me, these decisions are difficult and circumstantial.

As as scientist and a front-line worker (EMS), I too am completely tired of the half-truths and flat out misinformation being spread. Even more tired of the people who "have questions" but when answered, demonstrate that they absolutely don't have "questions" but positions and use said questions to passive-agressively dismiss the mainstream science/thought.

That said, here's my thoughts/advice on the various topics. All based on the latest understanding/consensus of the scientific evidence. If you have questions, I'll answer them, but I'm not going to debate - you want to go about life unmasked, unvaxxed, partying and believing you are invincible...well, go with God.

Masks:
MASKS ABSOLUTELY WORK. Period.

Short version: Masks are like condoms. They work very well when used EVERY TIME and PROPERLY. Don't wear it once - and it only takes once - and you can get COVID (or pregnant).

Long Version:
I'm a materials scientist/chemist who spent 5 years of my professional life developing filtration media, including N95/100 level materials. (It was hilarious when I had friends of friends tell me I didn't know how masks work and that they were useless)

Mask efficiency is cloth < surgical < N95 < N100. Only N95/100 are useful for providing complete protection for the wearer. All others are better than nothing, but do provide significant trapping of virus when worn by a sick person.

Contracting COVID (or any disease) is about viral load. Everyone has a threshold, and once that is exceeded, you'll get sick. Viral load is a combination of dose (cough in your face vs in the room) and time of exposure (one cough or two? 5 min or an hour?) The point of a mask is to lower the viral load you are exposed to by either minimizing the dose or extending the exposure time needed (or both).

Just because you wore a mask six and a half days a week, but not on that one trip into the gas station - still means you can get COVID.

Vaccines
I was in the Pfizer trial. I'm triply vaxxed. They work.

That said, they are clearly less effective at PREVENTING DISEASE from the variants due to the mutations that the virus has undergone, but they are still very effective at preventing serious illness (hospitalizations/death). The exceptions are for those who are already weakened due to chronic illness (the comorbities) and/or age.

"Natural immunity" - Yes, you get some protection, but what you don't know - and can never know - is what the level of immune response you got based on the viral load you were exposed to. The greater the viral load, the greater response.

But guess what? If you got the same viral load dose as is simulated by the vaccine, you'd probably be dead. Or at least spent a few weeks on a vent.

There are very few SERIOUS side effects that have been reported (feeling like crap isn't a "serious" side effect) - like less than 1 in a million; and even fewer deaths. Any claims that there are vast numbers of people dying from the vaccine is BS.

Get vaxxed.

Treatments
The only treatments that (mostly/sort of) work are remdesvir, dexamethasone, monoclonal antibodies and some anti-viral drugs.

The ones that don't work: Hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, urine...and any other snake oils being peddled by "doctors" that claim 95% (or 100%!) effectiveness. News flash: No drug is 100% effective at treating disease; even aspirin isn't 100% effective at treating headaches.

For those that think (peddle - looking at a certain governor) that the vaccines are dangerous because they "don't know what's in them," or that "they are too new, on an 'emergency use authorization'," but think MCAs are the cure all...well, that's the very definition of intellectual dishonesty (or just willful ignorance).

Here's pro-tip: Preventing disease is always easier, less costly and much preferred to actually getting sick and treating said disease. Get vaccinated.

General Science/State of Knowledge

Vaccinated people still get covid, so what's the point?
This statement drives me nuts. So much ignorance all rolled into one statement.

First of all, the number vaccinated people getting sick, going to the hospital, dying - whatever measurement you want to use - are significantly LESS than the unvaccinated. Best estimates are about 75% of people getting sick are unvaxxed, 90-95% in the hospital are unvaxxed, and dying are 98+% vaxxed.

Finally, the "why bother"...Really? Do you play in traffic on an interstate as well? Do you just do 100mph on local streets without a seat belt because...well, people die in car accidents, why bother?

COVID is overblown
Almost a 1M extra deaths. Hospitals jammed packed with the sick. ER wait time of 4-6 hours for COPD patients. STEMI (heart attack patients) placed in a hall way...

All because COVID is tearing through and causing nurse, doctor attrition because people can't get vaxxed, wear a mask, don't crowd into bars...

Yeah, COVID is overblown....Get the fuck out of here with that.

I don't know who to believe...It's all become politicized
Listen to the people who have been treating disease their entire lives AND are in line with the mainstream. If you have have to search the recesses of the internet to find someone that says something you REALLY agree with - or it from a politician that says "the scientists don't know what they are talking about" - then it's YOU who are politicizing it. YOU are part of the problem.

Also, if YOU are going to question the consensus views, YOU better have impeccable credentials. You better be a scientist or a doctor who has significant experience with statistics, doing research studies. And THEN - you better not be selling something, or just being contrarian (with the goal of getting speaking gigs). If you are an MBA (or worse), and think your "research" that you read on the internet is better than the people who do this for a living and have done it for 20+ years, please, do the world a favor and STFU.

Last thought: The EMTs/paramedics in the field and the nurses, doctors in the ERs, ICUs, COVID wards have been real heroes in this. But they are tired of hearing from patients the bullshit they are hearing on FoxNews or the internet, but completely dismiss our knowledge. All while telling us they don't have COVID and it's a conspiracy - when they are struggling to breath, burning up and coughing.

@WornDown -

Thank you so much for sharing your professional expertise here. I think you express the frustration many of us have with disinformation floating around.

- spoken as the spouse of a pharmaceutical researcher with 30+ years of experience.

I can wear my glasses with that mask and not have them fog up as much.

My husband found something on Amazon that comes in a spray bottle. I put it on my glasses and it keeps them from fogging up. A fabulous discovery. I can find out what it is if you are interested.

WornDown, Yes, to all of this. Thank you for taking the time to lay down the facts.

I've worked in a Bact-T labs, water/air quality and a hazardous waste/radiation testing facilities and I'm almost too tired to try explaining anything anymore. So many are wrong, mislead, misinformed or in some cases unable to synthesize the complex information coming at them so mistrust is the default. The good guys don't wear capes, but I know a good guy when I spot one, I know good science when I see it, and I can't believe the traction some of the junk is getting.

I am watching the infection rates and hoping beyond all reason that the death rates don't follow this time. I watch the data coming out of our sewage/wastewater treatment plants (worked at one of them too) and know the scope of the problem those numbers indicate. I know of dozens of self tested positive's who are not tracked in any system because official testing lines were too long. I know of few tracking or self reporting systems to fill this gap to accurately reflect the rates. I track infections and deaths through about five sources and I follow dozens of epidemiologists and doctors all over the world online for their reports, and there is no good news from any hospital anywhere right now. Delta or Omicron, who knows, who cares??

I can't believe we are arguing about masks at all, when they are the first best step in protecting our safety. I can't believe we aren't talking about indoor air exchange, or monitoring and filtration for public spaces to help mitigate infection rates. Every sports event or crowded event I see I count masks and I worry.

I have so many friends on the front lines in many states and countries who are living in hell right now. My Canadian nurse friends have been screamed at and spit on in public by angry anti-mask and anti-vax frustrated scared people. Why turn on the exhausted health care workers? I could tell horrible stories all day. The world has gone mad. I apologize to my now grown children for the mess we have made for them.

We need Walter Cronkite back, or nightly news that everyone watches so we all have the same data sets to base our decisions on, regardless of our stance on the science or politics or business happening alongside this pandemic nightmare.

WornDown - The TONE of your post is so offensive that I’d be hard pressed to engage in any of your points - not that that is what you are wanting because you make your stance for engaging very clear within the first sentences. Its so full of manipulation tactics and bullying that I’m quite literally having flashbacks. Nonetheless and with little doubt I’m sure you’ll having a cheering section that just continues to stress that they don’t understand why they keep "winning the battles" but are still "losing the war".

It’s so just interesting to me that you come into a post that was designed for respectful dialogue, has been struggling to stay focused on that despite high emotions - and you’re the guy that comes in on page 9 to set off the nuclear bomb. If the thread can even continue, it’s likely just to become one big circle jerk. So congratulations…maybe you’ll get to claim you have the biggest dick in the room.

With that, I’m really truly out. Thank you to all who contributed positively to the discussion.

Oh WornDown, I love you. I wish I could have typed anything half that intelligent.

I'm sorry there were hurt feelings though, truthsetmefree. For me, it's not about "being right" about anything because this is one of those issues I'd dearly love to be wrong about.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:12 PM, Tuesday, January 11th]

WornDown...your post may have had some helpful points...but you were NOT respectful at all.

Also, if YOU are going to question the consensus views, YOU better have impeccable credentials.

The epidemiologists who talk about cases concerning what MY family is going through absolutely DO. Only they are being suppressed by mainstream media. That right there has ME questioning WHY mainstream media only goes along with people who follow THEIR agenda. We often hear that we should always get a second opinion from doctors...yet it doesn't apply HERE? That makes NO sense.

Delta or Omicron, who knows, who cares??

The people who have Delta...where the monoclonal antibodies WORK...THEY CARE.

SadieMae...I would like to know...thank you .

truthsetmefree...you were spot on again...even to the point of the cheering section . I really HOPE you aren't out of this dialogue...but I certainly understand WHY you say that. It is really hard to get respectful dialogue going when it comes to this virus. I do THANK all of those that did that though .

** Posting as a member **

I think a serious discussion of world government crosses the line into politics. I'd love to comment, but SI is much better off without politics.

If 'world government' is about something like 'the Illuminati', I'd recommend reading Foucault's Pendulum and going into treatment for paranoia. I've got another reading reco, but I can't think of it, and I have to stay by my 'puter because I'm in a queue for a chat session with my phone company.

If it's about the one person who is often cited for doing things described, I think it's time for confrontation: I'd recommend getting to know people from demographics that you fear or mistrust. Maybe you can find a group of people of diverse cultures, religions, national origins, etc. and join it.

Actually, SI is such a group. We come from many countries, have several native languages, have a very wide range of incomes and wealth, are of many races and religions, have a wide range of political opinions, etc., etc., etc., but IRL face-to-face contact is the way to learn about other people and get over fear of groups.

I don't want to post a link, but on Amazon, if you look for "Anti Fog Wipes for Glasses" you should see an option from LifeArt "Reusable 700 times/pack" with over 22k reviews.

It really does work. I hate when my glasses fog up, so I hope it helps others!

If you are an MBA (or worse), and think your "research" that you read on the internet is better than the people who do this for a living and have done it for 20+ years, please, do the world a favor and STFU.

I have been running this website for 20+ years and I can tell you with absolute certainty if you continue to disrespect the members of this website from on high I will climb up there and knock you off your high horse quicker than you can social distance.

If anyone else misses the very clear warning that was already posted on this topic this is your last warning to post respectfully.