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I think this is real. From what my wife told me, POSOM apparently told my wife that he wanted to "help" my DD and give her all kinds of sage advice on how to navigate her complex life, cause you know I’m sure he’s quite the expert on teenage girls.

I bet that is how he made his way to your wife by giving her sage advice on how to navigate her complex life. That is his M.O. Your wife couldn't see the resemblance in how he used to message her in initial days and how he was messaging her daughter. The fact that even after almost a year she still understand this is really shocking.

Hellfire: I think the 'I love you' call happened first, and then after confession, she read those messages.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 6:55 PM, Thursday, May 18th]

Either way, she's not safe.

She clearly still held some love for him if she got angry and told IH he went to far in insulting this POS.

She also seemed shocked that he might share her pics. In today's world, the topic of revenge porn is prevalent. Also, I would imagine when they gave their DD a phone,they discussed internet safety,and to use the the phone appropriately. And,still,his wife didn't think it possible her images would be shared. It never occurred to her. On some level,she still trusted (trusts?) OM not to do that. That says a lot.

She clearly still held some love for him if she got angry and told IH he went to far in insulting this POS.

If it walks like a duck….

She also seemed shocked that he might share her pics. In today's world, the topic of revenge porn is prevalent. Also, I would imagine when they gave their DD a phone,they discussed internet safety,and to use the the phone appropriately. And,still,his wife didn't think it possible her images would be shared. It never occurred to her.

We have been intense enough about phone safety for DD, using iPhone parental settings as well as monitoring services, that DD felt we were overbearing and that was her main complaint against us in therapy. I was proud of myself that day. But to find out that my wife personally invited the danger in around all that. I am at a loss for words. And I like words.
No, my wife was entirely aware of the risk of her pictures being shared. But POSOM had a birthday that needed a special something.

On some level,she still trusted (trusts?) OM not to do that. That says a lot.

… and it quacks like a duck….

[This message edited by InkHulk at 8:11 PM, Thursday, May 18th]

Not a problem

I’m also just realizing that she understood the ramifications of this and that is why she hid it from me.

I really don't want to downplay the transgression here, please do not think that this is that. I do think it's important to keep in mind that as far as we know right now, nothing went past inappropriate texts. I imagine that her mother's affair and her parents' potential divorce is weighing heavier on InkHulk's daughter at the moment, than this is. It may not be registering to her as the trauma as we are assuming it is. Again, the last thing I want to do is suggest that this is okay or be seen to be standing up for OM, but as someone that was formerly a 16 year old girl, this is pretty standard shit. Again, 16 year old girls should NOT HAVE to deal with it, but I get the impression some of you might be astounded by the number of adult men who wouldn't think twice about being inappropriate with 16-year-old-girls (heck, I recall stuff creepier than this from when I was 12 - I'm not sure some sketchy texts would have even registered). I'm not talking about aggressive line crosses like touching but the "softer" stuff, like being overly familiar and using terms like "sweetie" etc. I swear, when I was this age, I could have walked into any crowded room, taken my shoe off and thrown it and hit at least 5-6 guys like this (all 2-3 times+ my age!). At the time, some of it felt mildly creepy, but when you are 16 and naive and this is so common (it really is!), it can skew your view of what is normal. It can even feel empowering for an adult to talk to you like an equal. Obviously, your perception of it changes with age. I'm a full grown adult now and work in a professional male-dominated field where I wear a suit most of the time, and I STILL get older men (who are for all intents and purposes my equals) calling me "sweetie" or touching my waist to get around me when it's obviously NOT NECESSARY to do so. Please let me be clear, I'm not saying it's okay (it certainly fucking isn't, and I don't think it should be acceptable on a personal or cultural level), I'm just saying that this probably wont be the first and certainly not the last time InkHulk's daughter has to contend with inappropriate behaviour from run-of-the-mill paternalistic creeps. I do think Mrs. InkHulk showed incredibly poor (dangerously poor) judgment if she did, in fact, pass on her daughter's phone number to an adult man - seeing nothing wrong with it. I see deleting it after-the-fact as just typical, CYA Wayward behaviour.

I meant she put her in a position to be groomed. I don't think she knew that would happen. I don't think she thought of your daughter's safety at all. It was all about OM, and keeping him close.

She says she had never considered it. She’s fucking blind, probably willfully.

Precisely. I don't say this because I'm not empathetic to InkHulk's daughter. Quite the opposite. My heart breaks for her that she was caught up in any of this. I just think that in our collective outrage, we are getting a little lost in the weeds. I believe that the most relevant issue is the fact that Mrs. InkHulk's wife is still lying and continuing to display Wayward behaviour in putting herself (and her desire to control the outcome) above the wellbeing of her husband and her family. I think its deeply problematic that her reaction to InkHulk moving towards separation is to insist that "she's not going to be treated badly" and offering some sort of grocery store peace offering instead of moving heaven and earth to show him that she's ready, willing, and able to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to save the marriage.

To everyone: If you can allow me this, set aside the grooming piece for a second and tell me how you’ve been able to recover from D-day 2, or from Trickle Truth atomic bombs. From where I stand right now, I just don’t see it.

I think it's just too son. When I say I was done after my "fuck it" moment, I mean it. I really was done. I wasn’t waking up the next morning wondering whether there was still a chance. My old marriage was dead (and I suppose it was dead on D-day) – it’s just that I was finally was prepared to stop trying to salvage it. I agree with Oldwounds and CT and WOES that it’s what happened NEXT that made R possible. WOES wrote:

I don’t want to give you any false hope because not every WS is built for the work that has to be done to get through this. The truth is that she has to begin some Herculean efforts to heal herself, dig down deep and discover some pretty ugly truths about herself and then genuinely own them in order to work on changing them. She has to fight like Hell for this marriage and demonstrate that it is her number one priority. She has to find remorse for her actions without you prompting her to do so. She needs to drop all of her defensiveness and learn to see her actions through your perspective. She needs to be able to question her motives and be honest with those answers. She needs to understand that her actions hurt people beyond your circle and can have lasting effects that take time and energy to heal.

I agree with this 100%. It’s not about what she did or convincing yourself that what she did wasn’t a dealbreaker. I think this where the BTW crows gets lost sometimes (I'm not saying they are around at the moment). They just keep seem to focus on how bad it is, as though you are incapable of seeing that. Obviously ALL of what she did was awful and unforgivable and sufficient on its own to be a dealbreaker. The affair set your marriage on fire, its just that now instead of frantically trying to salvage what’s left, you’re ready to put down the fire hoses and let it burn down. From the ashes, you can both decide to turn your back and head for greener pastures or you can decide to try to rebuild. Rebuilding is a lot of work and you know pretty well by now, that you cannot do it alone. The question will be whether you wife is cut out for this type of labour. Right now, its not totally clear that it has registered to her that the house is on fire.

What's happening with the separation from a practical/logistical perspective Ink? You had mentioned she was packing, but if she's grocery shopping, it sounds like she's still in the house.

----

I forgot myself for a bit. Oh,and the OW, who follows me here, had some "how to recover from CSA" books overnighted to me. Wonderful surprise this morning.

What an absolute POS. I’m so sorry Hellfire. I cannot imagine living such a pitiable existence that I would find it worth my time to stalk someone for 7 years and (checks notes) tease them about CSA. It really doesn’t get much lower than that. Does she kick puppies and children with disabilities in her spare time when she's not still obsessing over you? What a nasty, deeply pathetic person.

Unless she tells you otherwise I agree that his behavior was creepy but not abuse. He has a long game.
Don’t do overkill on this. Just make sure she knows that she can come to you about anything. Do please understand that kids are better secret keepers than adults. They read us and know what makes us uncomfortable/angry/sad and because they love us, or are embarrassed, often don’t tell. You already have a good relationship ship with her. She was smart enough to recognize that g’parent’s behavior was out of place. She is way steps ahead of most kids. Yet! She trusted her mother enough to allow the creep into her life. This is what angers me.

Dad, you are a hero whether you recognize it or not.

Please have your wife’s entire family look at a YouTube by Marilyn Van Derbur. A Miss America who was molested by her father for years. It might be a little tough for kids.

Epic text wall from Emergent! I’ve missed those.

Again, the last thing I want to do is suggest that this is okay or be seen to be standing up for OM, but as someone that was formerly a 16 year old girl, this is pretty standard shit.

Like I said to CT, I’ve never disagreed with you more than right now. I agree that girls/women put up with all kinds of misbehavior from men, including well before they are mature enough, physically and emotionally, to deal with it. But we could ask This0Is0Fine to do some Bayesian math for us on this, but let’s try to keep it simple. The majority of men are not sexual predators or people of absolute no morals. That means that the threat level for each of those catcalls or unnecessary touches is not as high as it could be. Now imagine walking thru a prison for sex offenders and experiencing those same behaviors. Totally different interpretation, you KNOW those guys have no good on their minds AND they will act on it. This is what happened here. My wife knew what kind of man POSOM is. She knew, and she allowed this to happen anyway.

I believe that the most relevant issue is the fact that Mrs. InkHulk's wife is still lying and continuing to display Wayward behaviour in putting herself (and her desire to control the outcome) above the wellbeing of her husband and her family. I think its deeply problematic that her reaction to InkHulk moving towards separation is to insist that "she's not going to be treated badly" and offering some sort of grocery store peace offering instead of moving heaven and earth to show him that she's ready, willing, and able to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to save the marriage.

I think the point is that, although this is an infidelity forum and that is what brought all of us together, infidelity and my marriage just took the backseat to my daughter and sexual abuse. And maybe that means this conversation needs to end here, but even if that happens I want you all to know I am grateful for you helping me to wake up.

I think it's just too son. When I say I was done after my "fuck it" moment, I mean it. I really was done. I wasn’t waking up the next morning wondering whether there was still a chance.

Call me thorough or generally curious, that is where that question came from. I am at and past Fuck It.

What's happening with the separation from a practical/logistical perspective Ink? You had mentioned she was packing, but if she's grocery shopping, it sounds like she's still in the house.

We are taking separate bedrooms in the house. I don’t know what the next step is going to be exactly. I’ve started doing things like stopping 401k contributions to conserve cash. Talked to my brother about potentially living with him. Need to find a lawyer. I’m not rushing myself.

Brevity has never been my strong suit.

I also sensed I was saying some things that might be unpopular so I probably over-proviso'd.

The majority of men are not sexual predators or people of absolute no morals. That means that the threat level for each of those catcalls or unnecessary touches is not as high as it could be.

Counterpoint, I have no idea which of the men catcalling me on the streets or sliding into my dms are a risk to me but I know from experience that some of them are. When I'm on the street I'm on my own and if I react negatively, I'm told I'm overreacting, a prude, or a bitch. I risk retaliation, social consequences and maybe even violence. I always have to weigh the risk of reacting to the risk of not reacting. In the prison example, at least there are guards and bars, and no one will question my reaction. If given the choice, I'd choose the prison example any day. My fear is not what they will think, my fear is what they'll do and the risk of social consequences of a bad reaction is often higher than the risk of sexual assault itself.

I get that you're mad and you have every right to be. My assumption, unless I've missed something though, is that your wife didn't think POSOM was a bad guy at the time - certainly not a child predator. I assume, like most waywards, she was blinded by the unicorns and fairy dust and the affair fog. To her, he was not a catcaller on the street, a stranger in her dms, or a convicted sex predator - quite the opposite, she believe she loved him, and felt like she could vouch for him. I am assuming she didn't believe that he was any risk to your daughter. I know this sucks, I'm so sorry.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 8:56 PM, Thursday, May 18th]

Fine, not a sexual offender prison, just a nice gathering of perverts, no guards. I feel like you unnecessarily blunted my argument there.

And at the very least my wife was pulling away from the affair in this timeframe. She wasn’t doe-y eyed for him. She’d been thru years of guilt and suicide contemplation (if she’s to be believed at all). With him at the center of it. And she hands my daughter over to him.

Fine, not a sexual offender prison, just a nice gathering of perverts, no guards. I feel like you unnecessarily blunted my argument there.

Fair. My prior post was intended to offer my perspective on how this was likely experienced by your daughter, as I felt that there was a fair bit of catastrophizing going on and I was trying to reassure you that this likely wasn't something that caused her permanent damage. You then disagreed with my "logic" and provided me with what you assumed was an obviously logical example. Again, having a different perspective, caused me to look at differently than you.

My point remains, what your wife did was reckless and risky and wrong, much like her ENTIRE AFFAIR WAS. In having the A, she put your entire family at risk in a number of big and small ways. She risked your marriage and your kids stable homes. She had sex with him, which exposed BOTH OF YOU to diseases that could have killed you. Losing a parent would certainly would have hurt your kids, wouldn't it have? She didn't know how you'd react to any of this, if you found out. You could have killed yourself or her, you could have harmed the OM and ended up in jail. I'm not saying this isn't bad. I'm just saying that ALL OF IT IS RISKY and they do it anyway, either because they are willing to risk it or because they don't actually forsee the risk coming to materialize. I don't think this is much different than any of that. I don't think her actions here are tantamount to handing off your daughter to a known sexual predator. She may not have been entirely doe-eyed at this time, but she was obviously still foggy (and maybe still it). As you have pointed out, she continued to profess her love for him EVEN AFTER the roadtrip blowout.

You are mad. I get that. You are entitled to be mad. The white hot embers of my rage, when it hit, could have powered a small city. If this is your line, and this is it for your marriage, that is 100% okay. I am certainly not going to try to talk you into staying. I actually think you being mad about this and instituting real consequences is refreshingly healthy to see. As you know, I've previously worried you were the dog sipping tea amongst the flames.

Edit: forgot to add quotations.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 9:36 PM, Thursday, May 18th]

Emergent, you are an incredible voice of reason. And I don’t want to hear it today.

1. Even in her foggy state, IH's WW should have known it was creepy for her for AP to have WW's DD's number, ESPECIALLY AS AP was calling DD "sweetie" and "cutie". There is just no way to spin this as normal affair fog (whatever THAT is). And then WW never told IH because even she knew it was that bad.

2. As far as the impact of WW's actions on IH's DD: Yes many a 16-year-old girl gets called "cutie" and "sweetie" by older men all the time, some who are creepy and some who are just the well-meaning grandfatherly types. Especially if said girl works in a job interacting with customers--scooping ice cream say. However, in those jobs she deals with the offending customer only briefly, there are a lot of other people around, and there are other boundaries in place. You better believe at some point that IH's daughter will have to process that it was HER OWN MOTHER who put her in touch with AP.

I have no idea why some people here are trying to make WW's actions seem less disgusting than they were. Moving forward I just cannot see ANY way how WW could possibly be a viable partner for IH. In fact WW will have to be someone IH will have to protect his kids from. He is absolutely right to move into D, and for the sake of his family he would be wrong to even consider R at this point.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:38 PM, Thursday, May 18th]

Emergent, you are an incredible voice of reason. And I don’t want to hear it today.

Rage away, my friend.

My wife knew what kind of man POSOM is. She knew, and she allowed this to happen anyway.

I have all sorts of grace and sympathy for people who have been through abuse. Right up to the point where they start abusing others. Then they switch categories. From victim to perpetrator.

I would call your wife “perpetrator adjacent.”

Once you get divorced I wonder if she will continue to invite these type of men to be around your children. That’s something to discuss with your lawyer, along with about 1000 other things I’m sure.

I agree with emergent. Your wife didn't know what she was doing because of the 'fog' she was in. She didn't realize the risk she brought to her daughter. It is very consistent with her wayward behavior since the hobby days. She has been consistently putting your kids at harms length since the beginning of her affair. Until yesterday, you didn't know how big of a risk that was to your kids.

The question now is, is she still exhibiting wayward behavior? From what you wrote, I infer she still does. It's been almost an year and she had read many books, attended IC and MC, had deep and open conversations with you where you explained to her how dangerous her affair was and what kind of deranged person her AP is. Even after doing all of this, she still doesn't own that she had unintentionally put her daughter in a harms length. She still doesn't feel rage against that POSOM. Her current behavior is very consistent with her behavior she exhibited when she allowed her daughter to have AP's number and when she took her kids to that hobby related class.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 10:12 PM, Thursday, May 18th]

I imagine that her mother's affair and her parents' potential divorce is weighing heavier on InkHulk's daughter at the moment, than this is.

I hope this is true. But the problem is I wouldn’t know if it’s not. What if that bastard got her into sextortion? What if he groomed her so well so fast that she thinks she loves him? Does it sound alarmist? Sure. I’ve already talked enough about risk assessment though. These are possibilities given the intrusion my wife enabled.