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I can’t say I’ve ever heard anyone say they were in false D, that they regretted divorcing.

Divorce is a very pragmatic definitive solution to infidelity, as long as the BS follows through with affair trauma rehabilitation.

I believe R is possible when both parties equally want it, a force multiplier, two wills focused on a mutual goal. The WS initially has to do the heavy lifting, but there maybe times when the BS has to step up. Like two shot-to-shit soldiers trying to drag each other back to refuge.

Think about the quality and character of WS we’re talking about. We’re talking about someone who can overcome an incredibly self and mutually destructive personal failing, pick themselves up by their boot straps, fix their shit-a lifetime of complex predisposing issues, deal with their shame, guilt, regret, humiliation while simultaneously nurturing their traumatized, bitter, angry and many times hostile spouse back to health, with the guillotine of Divorce ever hanging over their neck, and only the questionable promise of success to motivate you, while watching the fleeting clock of life run out along with any opportunities for new beginnings if all fails.

So there’s that.

And then think about the quality and character of the BS we’re talking about. And even when the WS is doing everything right, a BS can be just too badly broken, traumatized to R (a deal breaker).

True reconciliation is a beautiful almost miraculous thing. I think that’s why we can doubt it if we don’t witness it for ourselves. In our grief it’s hard enough to believe in a God let alone a miracle, but it is universally acknowledged that when it comes to human will, and especially wills united, anything is possible.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 6:01 AM, Sunday, March 5th]

This is a quote which has stuck with me from the poet Wisława Szymborska (thanks Maria Popova):

"Great love is never justified. It’s like the little tree that springs up in some inexplicable fashion on the side of a cliff: where are its roots, what does it feed on, what miracle produces those green leaves?"

I can’t say that my marriage was ‘great love’ but we had both been let down by some people who had been important to us. We ‘recognized’ each other and mostly did our best by each other, including raising children we love. I was good to her. I expected to be able to get by, I’m capable - but not necessarily to open up. But I did.

That’s where the betrayal injury sits for me.

When I think of that poem I don’t think of great love but I think if our marriage, and we are still going, and I do wonder at that. How are we still going?

We are trying and succeeding more than failing now.

I can’t say I’ve ever heard anyone say they were in false D, that they regretted divorcing.

I’m sure there is no "false D" in the sense of false R as there is no one to lie to you. But I’ve seen divorce bring misery to many lives, my own included. And with the sky high rates of infidelity, it’s not that unlikely that a person will get cheated on in their next relationship, and from the perspective of getting out of infidelity, that is almost a "false D", has the same effect anyway.

I can’t say I’ve ever heard anyone say they were in false D, that they regretted divorcing.

Divorce is a very pragmatic definitive solution to infidelity, as long as the BS follows through with affair trauma rehabilitation.

I believe R is possible when both parties equally want it, a force multiplier, two wills focused on a mutual goal. The WS initially has to do the heavy lifting, but there maybe times when the BS has to step up. Like two shot-to-shit soldiers trying to drag each other back to refuge.

Think about the quality and character of WS we’re talking about. We’re talking about someone who can overcome an incredibly self and mutually destructive personal failing, pick themselves up by their boot straps, fix their shit-a lifetime of complex predisposing issues, deal with their shame, guilt, regret, humiliation while simultaneously nurturing their traumatized, bitter, angry and many times hostile spouse back to health, with the guillotine of Divorce ever hanging over their neck, and only the questionable promise of success to motivate you, while watching the fleeting clock of life run out along with any opportunities for new beginnings if all fails.

So there’s that.

And then think about the quality and character of the BS we’re talking about. And even when the WS is doing everything right, a BS can be just too badly broken, traumatized to R (a deal breaker).

True reconciliation is a beautiful almost miraculous thing. I think that’s why we can doubt it if we don’t witness it for ourselves. In our grief it’s hard enough to believe in a God let alone a miracle, but it is universally acknowledged that when it comes to human will, and especially wills united, anything is possible.

Beautifully stated.

I'd like to add that D does not mean happiness. Not sure where this false dichotomy started. D often sucks as well but it can still be the better option of the long term healing of the BS.

I think we leave out some important components, and whether we can successfully reconcile or not. I’m going to go off topic a bit to talk about a friend of mine who has had some of the most awful terrible things happen to her, not the least of which is losing children to death. Over the course of her adult life she’s had one major loss after another and yet she is the sunniest person I know. I don’t know where she gets the resilience but I am her biggest admirer. She just keeps going. She’s nursed husbands while they died. She’s dealt with financial issues , in fact, think of it and she’s dealt with it. I ask her where she gets this strength and she said is from a happy childhood. So I’m going to put my own out there and say that’s exactly why I was able to just go on with my husband and our marriage after finding out he was cheating. I’m perfectly happy in my own skin. I don’t need him to prop me up. If he was to leave me right now, it would be financially tricky, but I would survive. So to come to the idea of reconciliation versus divorce. How bad was the cheating because that’s the biggest component. How sorry is the cheater because that’s the second and how are you able to withstand the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Thanks Shakespeare. So all of that goes into what makes a successful reconciliation versus what makes a successful divorce. How do you feel when you get up in the morning and how do you feel during the day and how do you feel when you go to bed at night. Those are the questions you need to ask yourself because if you’re hanging on to some miserable form of false happiness by your fingernails, your marriage might not be worth it .

'But divorce brings misery and who is to say that the next partner won't cheat'

That hardly seems to be a ringing endorsement for staying married though. In fact, it goes right back to what Never2Late said about people staying together, for in my opinion, reasons that sound rather sad.

I'd submit balancing this with what is it that you are teaching your kids. Many BHs need to keep in mind that their sons are modeling their behavior. Do they want their sons to end up stuck with someone like WW?

I have to stick with what I said earlier, and this is reading the threads on THIS forum, as well as stories in real life. Too many BHs stayed married, to their WW who didn't do the work. They don't feel safe in the M and too many of them suspect that their WW is there just for the material rewards. So many of these BH just seem so sad and defeated. This isn't anyone 'insulting' anyone, you can read their pain in their words on here. God does not want to live like that!

If what I wrote sounded too 'pro-D', yes there ARE people on here whose marriages are in a far happier place. But IIRC in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE, the WS didn't truly wake up until the BS had 'had it' and put their foot down.

Otherwise, I have never seen it work. Why would it work. The same person who found it in them to betray their family, is somehow going to get this internal motivation to do all this work to make themselves safe? Not without some sort of kick in the ass with the realization that they may lose everything, they won't!

** Posting as a Member ** (You all knew I was going to rejoin this, right?)

There are a lot of statements in this thread that I've responded to emotionally, and I drafted replies to the most egregious ones, but ... here's my response....

Yet, if someone says TRUE reconciliation is a unicorn, and say they're speaking from their own personal experience, and the experience of others, they're met with comments from members,and staff, telling them what they've said is a generalization, and not allowed.

Oh, Hellfire, it's entirely possible for a person to know that they are in R or have R'ed and to say so truthfully.

Aside from the issue of accusing other members of lying, a person absolutely cannot know from their own personal experience that R is impossible for everybody. It doesn't matter how many successful Ds and unsuccessful Rs one personally knows about - a single person simply doesn't have enough data to draw conclusions about the population as a whole.

*****

'R is impossible' implies a general rule that BSes must D.

'R is possible' implies that each BS (and WS, for that matter) needs to look at their own life to figure out what's best for them. It further implies that both D & R can be healthy responses that can lead to happiness.

****

I've read a number of post-D statements that the D'ed BS is happy about their decision, and I believe them. Their posts are just too genuine to doubt. I've met some D'ed members at g2gs, and they act too genuinely to doubt, even when they're in the throes of a nasty D.

I've read a number of posts from BSes who have D'ed, married or built new relationships with new people, and have been betrayed again.

I haven't read a lot of posts from members who have found new life partners and are happy. I've read some, but not a lot. I wouldn't expect to, because most members use SI when they're in difficulty, not when their lives are going well. (Hmmm ... that might imply there are many couples who have R'ed and haven't mentioned it on SI....)

Most people are resilient. Most people can heal themselves from something like infidelity. But healing comes from attending to one's own specific wants and getting the specific help one needs. I'll say this, though:

IMO, the less energy one spends drawing conclusions on insufficient data, the more energy one can spend on healing. IMO, the more energy one spends on what other do or should do, the less energy one can spend on healing.

IMO, again, the more energy one spends finding out what's possible for you, the quicker you will heal. I understand - because I feared - wanting R but fearing I couldn't do it. Saying to oneself and, worse, to others that R is impossible keeps one locked in pain, which is the opposite of healing, IMO.

And if you think or write back that you believe R is impossible and aren't in pain, I won't argue with you.

*****

Being new is no reason for getting a pass for posting that R is impossible. Besides, confronting that newbie benefits that newbie. and everyone else who reads the confrontation, by opening up new options.

*****

But IIRC in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE, the WS didn't truly wake up until the BS had 'had it' and put their foot down.

Sorry. Gotta respond to this specifically. My W woke up before I put my foot down. She resolved to end her A and bear the consequences (She was being blackmailed), and she had resolved to answer any question I asked before I knew about the A.

Otherwise, I have never seen it work.

Thanks. for writing this sentence. In a nutshell, it is exactly the whole problem with posts that over-generalize.

We all can talk about our own experience; we all know ourselves much better than anyone on an anonymous Internet forum can.

None of us can talk about the experiences of others, because all we know is what they present to us. We can't generalize, because we know too little about others. There are no good statistics about infidelity and outcomes. We know ourselves, but we don't know about general populations.

I know what my W says about herself. I know her truth. I know my truth. But I also know that her truth and my truth might not be the same as The Truth.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:30 PM, Sunday, March 5th]

So all of that goes into what makes a successful reconciliation versus what makes a successful divorce. How do you feel when you get up in the morning and how do you feel during the day and how do you feel when you go to bed at night. Those are the questions you need to ask yourself because if you’re hanging on to some miserable form of false happiness by your fingernails, your marriage might not be worth it .

Love this response. I honestly think this is a great barometer for determining whether R or D is the more successful route to happiness.

'R is impossible' implies a general rule that BSes must D.

'R is possible' implies that each BS (and WS, for that matter) needs to look at their own life to figure out what's best for them. It further implies that both D & R can be healthy responses that can lead to happiness.

"R is possible" does not imply any such thing. What I infer from it is that R is possible if I just figure out the right way to make it happen. After all, the statement says that is is possible. Further, because D is not mentioned, it implies nothing about D.

The bottom line is, we all have prejudices and those prejudices flavor what we hear, what we see and what we think. What we strive for as humans is to recognize those prejudices so we're able to look beyond those things because they're the things that box us in.

And, to nitpick a bit further, R & D are not the only 2 choices. Since the beginning of time, people have been coming up with novel ways to survive what life throws at them. Those involved in and with infidelity are no different.

Edited to add: I just happened to read this and I didn't mean to sound so preachy, I was simply trying to share what I thought was an insight but I get so stressed about using proper grammar and punctuation, my words often lose their conversational, "I'm open to ideas" tone. Please try to overlook my stick up my butt vibe.

[This message edited by josiep at 3:28 AM, Tuesday, March 7th]

My personal opinion about how I approach posting on S.I. is to make the person think, to help guide them away from the emotions that are paralyzing them or making them feel overwhelmed and lean more toward the actual facts. I don't believe there's a one size fits all answer in any situation but I do believe that a person will make much better decisions in the midst of a crisis if they have all the facts. And so while I believe R is very achievable for a lot of couples, I think it's absolutely crucial for the BS to know they don't have to accept abuse (and infidelity is abuse), they have rights and they didn't cause the situation. Once they get that, then they can start analyzing their own situation and figure out their best course forward. That said, if the WS is an addict of any sort, the chances of R are very slim and if the BS chooses to remain married to that person (we don't not love someone because of their problems and mistakes), I think the only way they'll get through it long term is with a 12 Step program (in my case, AlAnon).

I have truly never noticed a trend toward pushing BS's in one direction or another. We might have an occasional person whose hard-nosed about it but we're all adults here and if a poster leaves because of what one person out of more than 80,000 says, it's unfortunate but I don't see how we can prevent it. At least not at the same time allowing a wide range of posters to answer the person's inquiry. Some of us will be gentle, some will be blunt, some will focus on their health, some will direct them toward counseling, etc. (or away from it, as the case might be).

I also believe the wide variety of posts is beneficial for the newcomer. When I first came, I was reading and reading and reading; I suppose I was looking for that magic answer that was going to help me figure it all out and make everything better. I was increasingly frustrated until I realized the truth of my situation.

And I will tell you (it helps to know that I'm a dinosaur, I've never said the F word and I've only had sex with one man in my whole life) that the post that caused me to sit up and realize what my reality was was "FTG!" And I'm sitting here laughing now cuz I had to ask what FTG meant (sad but true). But there was something about that post that empowered me, made me feel like maybe I hadn't been the worst wife in the world. So sometimes, a post that's in someone's face is just what the doctor ordered.

I should go back to see who it was who said that to me. I have a couple of possible members in mind. (Edited to add: It was MinusOne who said the words that stopped me in my tracks. Or, I should say, the "acronym.")

Anyway, I vote for keep on talking to each other and agreeing and disagreeing and everything in between. Some of us will reconcile with each other and some will choose not to. That's just the way it is and the way it will always be.

[This message edited by josiep at 3:29 AM, Tuesday, March 7th]