SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So I’ve spent more time than I care to admit reading stories on another forum for OM/OW. It’s been super enlightening. But two key observations pop out at me:
1) the vast majority of posters over there are women. This is in contrast to here where it seems pretty evenly split, even possibly more male dominated. I interpret that as men in affairs just don’t care enough about it to be driven to talk about it in these kinds of forums.
2) Men are fairly predictably liars and predatorial. They lie about dead bedrooms and bad marriages and basically just about anything they can say to get a woman’s guard down to get sex out of them. Women do some of this, but it’s absolutely gender imbalanced.

This certainly has me thinking about my own situation. I cannot and will not give my wife a pass for her immense betrayal. But this further pushes my internal understanding that that mother fucker POSOM intentionally did this and walked her down the path. What she has told me aligns so close with story after story after story on that forum. It rekindles my rage for that fucker.

So question for this community: why the general advice to focus my anger on my WW? Again, not saying she is off the hook. But having someone come along and intentionally deceive you is a really dangerous situation. We all assume reasonably good intent with people as we go thru our daily lives. If men in particular are out there intentionally lying and fishing, that’s a big damn deal and seems worthy of consideration in all of this. I’d like to hear all your thoughts on this.

why the general advice to focus my anger on my WW? Again, not saying she is off the hook. But having someone come along and intentionally deceive you is a really dangerous situation. We all assume reasonably good intent with people as we go thru our daily lives. If men in particular are out there intentionally lying and fishing, that’s a big damn deal and seems worthy of consideration in all of this. I’d like to hear all your thoughts on this.

You focus your anger on your WW because she is the one to whom you are married and the one who betrayed you. The intentions of the OM are irrelevant. If his intentions were heartfelt and genuine, she still should have rejected him because she already committed herself to you. If he was lying and fishing, then she should've never taken the bait.

Also, if you cast your WW in the role of hapless victim, then how is reconciliation even possible? After all, it wasn't entirely her fault that she was seduced, so how can you believe any assurances that it would stop or never happen again? If she doesn't own her choices then how can she change them?

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:21 PM, Wednesday, February 15th]

I cannot and will not give my wife a pass for her immense betrayal. But this further pushes my internal understanding that that mother fucker POSOM intentionally did this and walked her down the path. What she has told me aligns so close with story after story after story on that forum. It rekindles my rage for that fucker.

So question for this community: why the general advice to focus my anger on my WW? Again, not saying she is off the hook. But having someone come along and intentionally deceive you is a really dangerous situation. We all assume reasonably good intent with people as we go thru our daily lives.

Ink I so get being mad at the other person. I wanted to physically hurt my xwh's ap skanklet. Of course that anger at the om/ow is righteous and justified.

But.

It took me time to get my thinking straight here too, but the om didn't owe you anything. Your WIFE owed you loyalty and to uphold her vows to you and she didn't deliver on the promises she made to her you as her husband.

When I was dating/married, I got hit on plenty. I never decided that I was a helpless woman, powerless against their pelvic sorcery, that had no choice but to cheat. I never cheated (and would never cheat) because cheating is wrong and it goes against my own moral compass and principles. Your wife chose to cheat because she has a gap somewhere there in her compass that let her tell herself that this was an acceptable choice for her to make. I'm a woman and trust me when I tell you that NO man has ever been soooooo intoxicating that I was powerless to tell him to feck off.

The issue here as I see it is that by focusing so much rage and anger on the om, it shifts your focus from the fact that the only reason there's an om for you to be enraged at is because your WIFE chose to put him there. THAT'S the real issue. om is an irrelevant pos that will continue to do what he does cus that's about his dysfunction. He deceived her, sure, but ultimately she CHOSE to believe his bullshit and cheat on her spouse. That ain't on him, that's on HER.

If men in particular are out there intentionally lying and fishing, that’s a big damn deal and seems worthy of consideration in all of this. I’d like to hear all your thoughts on this.

*Laughing in feminism Ummmm.... maybe I'm in the minority here, but as a woman I generally just assume that a dewd hitting on me is a player and is lying to me until I have some evidence to the contrary. (note: I know I have issues with men because of a lot of past/foo stuff, so I am kinda saying this tongue in cheek, buuuuutttt.... kinda not too).

But having someone come along and intentionally deceive you is a really dangerous situation.

Isn't this your WW?

So should OBS look at your wife as a poor little girl lost,and taken advantage of by her lying husband?

Also, didn't your wife use a hobby shared by her,and OM, to get closer to him? Didn't she go on trips with OM and his wife,and baby-sit their kids, so she could be close to him?

Sounds like your wife did a whole Hell of a lot of lying and manipulating.

Unless I have you mixed up with another member,in which case, never mind.

Regardless your wife is a fully grown woman. An entire adult. It doesn't matter if OM was telling her the entire truth..she knew she was married. She chose to have an affair. She chose to be with him.

She is not a victim,in any sense of the word.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:50 PM, Wednesday, February 15th]

So question for this community: why the general advice to focus my anger on my WW?

Because she is an adult having the freedom to make her own decisions.

Each time I see BHs here trying to say that their wives have been manipulated into an affair I find it somehow insulting and it makes me wonder where they are on the sexism scale.

For someone to imply that I am not capable to understand right from wrong because I am a woman and men are able to manipulate me to get into my knickers is highly insulting. Any woman out there playing the role of a damsel in distress who claims she didn’t realise that a man hitting on a married woman was trying to get himself laid, is doing a disservice to all us women who would like to be treated with respect and not considered stupid and easily led.

I can guarantee you that if I let someone into my vagina I will know for sure what I’m doing. I can also guarantee you that your wife knew exactly what she was doing when she offered her body to another man.

The ow in my case did so much to manipulate my WH, I have a list of things she claimed about me implying to my WH that I was playing a role to manipulate him myself. But you know what, I don’t give a hoot about my WH’s poor excuses (in fairness he never actually claimed he was manipulated by her), his duty as my spouse was to stand by me no matter what or to divorce if he couldn’t play his part anymore, not to fall into another woman’s vagina.

That applies to all spouses, men or women, unless again you are implying us women are easily led and slightly stupid?

[This message edited by Luna10 at 9:43 PM, Wednesday, February 15th]

To add: I’m not saying you can’t be angry at the OM, I know fully well there is enough anger and rage to go around to both these people. I’ve had plenty to share between the two of them.

But please stop considering your wife a victim, you are the victim, as someone pointed out above, she purposely deceived YOU. What does that say about her in your narrative?

I totally understand your anger at the other man. He deserves it.

But I’m another one who calls bullshit on women being hapless victims. I’ve been hit on plenty; I know that game. No dude whining about his dead bedroom is going to make me jump in the sack with him.

Did the other man likely deceive and play your wife? Absolutely. But the issue is that you’re married to someone unwilling or unable to see through that, and more importantly, someone who chose not to be faithful to you. THAT is the most glaring pertinent issue for you.

She was the gatekeeper to your M. She made many justifications to push boundaries. It’s 100% on her.

I was expecting to get major push back here. I’m going to preface this to say I greatly respect the opinions of the people here and the collective wisdom of this grief soaked community. Richard Feynman said that science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. So in that spirit I’m going to push the party line here. You will probably coral me back in, but I’m going to explore this anyway.

With respect, I hear some responses that feel like taking dogma over data. There are very strong beliefs within this community, and certainly 100% personal responsibility of WS is one of them. Forgive me in advance for poking a sacred cow. I’m also not going to worry about sounding sexist here. As I said, there is a huge gender imbalance on that other forum. There is something going on by gender here, I am fully convinced.

First, it’s a huge problem that my wife was even remotely open to advances, I totally agree. I’m also going to say that almost every one of those stories on the OW forum started with "I never thought I’d find myself here". So if woman after woman after woman is saying "I can’t believe I found myself here" and man after man after man is lying and prowling with intent, that paints a meaningful picture to me.

Take this example: the preying on the elderly by financial scammers. Say an "African prince" e-mails your grandma and fast talks her into sending money. And before anyone notices, she’s sent her whole life savings. Who do you get angry at? It was grandma’s job to protect the family assets. But we all recognize that the scammer is a/the villian. Grandma should have been wiser, but that is way different than intentional scamming.

You can get mad at me for infantilizing women with this, I really don’t care as I’m trying to understand this seismic event in my life. That is the pattern I saw on that forum, even if it’s not PC to say. Guys are lying/scamming. Call me naive, but I didn’t really know that was happening so regularly in the world. And I’m pretty sure my wife didn’t really know that either, she is a very trusting person and POSOM was a high school acquaintance, so even more of a trust factor. And man, once someone gets you to take even on step down a bad road, it is life altering. POSOM didn’t start off with "hey, let’s bang", and my wife said "all night long, baby!" He slowly pushed boundaries. Normalization of deviance. It brought down the Challenger space shuttle, and probably many a wayward.

And I’ve read the threads where we as BS’s all say we could never be in an A, I think I even chimed in on one recently, but I think we might be pretty biased, my friends. Someone intentionally deceiving us with skill, coming to take our money or our chastity, it’s a dangerous thing that is both hard to detect and hard to break free from.

Guys, I love you all. I trust you will beat the hell out of me for this, please trust I mean well.

But the issue is that you’re married to someone unwilling or unable to see through that, and more importantly, someone who chose not to be faithful to you. THAT is the most glaring pertinent issue for you.

Being blind is not much of a crime. I think she was super naive. Once we make small compromises and don’t have consequences, we become numb to that compromise and feel emboldened to push the next boundary. Normalization of deviance. She was super wrong. But wrong in a different way than POSOM.
Grandma is blind to the email scammers. She is wrong, but the scammer is much worse. That is my point.

Honestly, I think this is just a new variation on the old hopium pipe. To whatever degree you make the A the AP’s fault, you lessen your WW’s fault by the same amount. If she’s less culpable, then it’s easier to forgive her and easier to R. This whole line of thinking and arguing just clouds the real issue. Your WW chose to betray you and your stuck having to live with this for the rest of your life. You just can’t put lipstick on this to make it any better or different. Sorry you’re having to deal with this.

I really don’t care as I’m trying to understand this seismic event in my life. That is the pattern I saw on that forum, even if it’s not PC to say. Guys are lying/scamming. Call me naive, but I didn’t really know that was happening so regularly in the world. And I’m pretty sure my wife didn’t really know that either, she is a very trusting person and POSOM was a high school acquaintance, so even more of a trust factor. And man, once someone gets you to take even on step down a bad road, it is life altering. POSOM didn’t start off with "hey, let’s bang", and my wife said "all night long, baby!" He slowly pushed boundaries. Normalization of deviance. It brought down the Challenger space shuttle, and probably many a wayward.

I get what you're saying here. But the problem isn't how he 'conned' your wife into the sack InkHulk. The problem is that your wife at some point CHOSE to go there. Because she did. She chose that. She wasn't some poor sweet lamb in the woods who was preyed on by the big bad wolf. She chose to walk into the forest in the first place.

The issue with this line of your thinking is that it still speaks to some part of you thinking that your wife was somehow a 'victim' of this slick posom. She wasn't. I get that protecting your wife is something that good guys do and that it's a hard habit to break, but as long as you keep fixating on how om did this TO your ww (instead of WITH her willing participation), it's pulling focus from the fact that she allowed him to lead her along that path at all when she could have bailed at any point along the way. If you're still in that line of thinking, I'd be willing to bet that your ww is definitely there too. And if she's still holding herself up as a victim, then she is not getting the magnitude of the choices she has made and how they impact you.

When a woman that's in a relationship has healthy boundaries with the opposite sex, they don't go 'there' EVER. If someone is trying to lead them down a 'bad path', the woman tells the posom to fuck off. They delete and block them. They say 'no thanks, I am married'. They do any of 100 things other than continuing to slide down a slippery slope and into an affair.

Also, if you cast your WW in the role of hapless victim, then how is reconciliation even possible? After all, it wasn't entirely her fault that she was seduced, so how can you believe any assurances that it would stop or never happen again? If she doesn't own her choices then how can she change them?

If this model is correct, then part of what she needs to do to become a safe partner is become far more aware and wise to the intentions of men, which would then create new and appropriate boundaries against would be scammers. What good does it do us for her to just identify as a terrible person bereft of moral character if a huge part of what happened was actually naivety? Identifying the full truth will be what allows her to avoid making the same mistake in the future.

We moved in with MIL, and I cared for her in the last several years if her life.

She got several of those calls. I witnessed them. I took the phone from here,and cussed out the scammer on the other end,many times.

This woman worked for the IRS for 30 years. She was extremely savvy,and smart.

What you are completely neglecting to say is that these older people who are scammed aren't blind. They have a diminished mental capacity. They are unable to understand they're being scammed,so they fall for it.

So unless you are saying your wife has a diminished mental capacity, then the comparison is unfair.

Of course the men lie to the ow. They're lying to their wives,so why would anyone think they aren't lying to the OW?

Do you think your wife talked about how wonderful you are,and how fantastic your marriage was? Of course not. If you were great,and the marriage was great,then she would be a pretty shitty person to cheat on you. She lied to OM,just as he lied to you.

I also have read this forums. It's not surprising that they say they cheated because their spouse or marriage was bad. They have to justify their behavior. What is surprising is how easily influenced you've been, by reading the words of unremorseful cheaters.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:19 PM, Wednesday, February 15th]

If this model is correct, then part of what she needs to do to become a safe partner is become far more aware and wise to the intentions of men, which would then create new and appropriate boundaries against would be scammers. What good does it do us for her to just identify as a terrible person bereft of moral character if a huge part of what happened was actually naivety? Identifying the full truth will be what allows her to avoid making the same mistake in the future.

Yes she does need a lot more awareness. And part of that awareness isn't worrying about what others think or do or feel or what their intentions are - it's setting healthy boundaries for herself.

Just my 0.02, but I also think that you're overestimating her naivety too. Women know when a dude is into them. Blaming it on her being naïve is letting her off the hook because that's lessening her own personal accountability for the decisions she made - she darn well knew better and she chose to do it anyways. I'm not saying she isn't naive, but am saying that that is not an excuse at all for her having an affair.

I’ve said before that I think a lot about behavioral economics, and I’m seeing it here. Think about the Milgram experiment, where people were willing to give incredibly painful electric shocks (so they thought) to strangers just because someone is a lab coat told them too. It doesn’t make logical sense and almost anyone would believe about themselves that they would never do that. But the vast majority of people did. People act against their own professed values often (see The Honest Truth About Dishonesty by Dan Ariely, worth a read). Having another person actively baiting you to do it? That is huge.

What is surprising is how easily influenced you've been, by reading the words of unremorseful cheaters.

Ouch. Hellfire, I admire the bejezus out of you, you’ve genuinely influenced the course of my life. I’ll give you that one.

Your point about diminished mental capacity is fair and it is where my comparison breaks down. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t some merit to be gleaned. My main takeaway is that intentional deception is distinct from naivety, and much worse.

It’s not that the threads in those forums are about them abdicating responsibility. I’m seeing a pattern in all of that "raw data". And I was surprised to see it because it doesn’t align with the party line here.

Do you think your wife talked about how wonderful you are,and how fantastic your marriage was? Of course not. If you were great,and the marriage was great,then she would be a pretty shitty person to cheat on you. She lied to OM,just as he lied to you.

Yes, she lied. But she didn’t start the interactions with intent and lies (I believe), and he did (I believe).

Consider briefly my fire model of infidelity. Heat, fuel, oxygen, and spark.

Stress, opportunity, attraction, and deceit.

The purported reason of any cheater will almost certainly relate back to the first three. I'm not saying these environmental conditions don't matter but that's all part of the blame shift. The spark/deceit is the problem. That's why the cheater is 100% responsible for the decision to cheat.

A person cannot be tricked into having an affair they don't want. It's a consensual action. Even if the AP relies on fraudulence to seem more appealing, e.g. is dumping oxygen into the room, they didn't trick your WS into lying to you.

Let's say the purported reasons for cheating have a gender bias. Even if true, even if applicable in your case, that doesn't really help you R. Men want more sex, women want more emotional connection. That's just a gender biased form of heat/stress. That we know one liar is looking for easy sex and the other a feeling of emotional intimacy, and that there is a distinct mismatch, only means that the emotional intimacy seekers are also lying to themselves. Because everyone knows real intimacy doesn't have to hide in secrecy.