"You can survive this. Talk to others that have"

deephurt posted 6/18/2019 15:29 PM

I don’t think it is normal. I think infidelity gets more and more common because we learn it is acceptable growing up. We learn grandparents and parents and aunts and friends do it and it is romanticized in shows and movies.

Murder would be more common and accepted if everyone we knew did it and no one was held accountable. So we would kill the people who piss us off instead of whatever we do now.

Society as a whole has made infidelity acceptable so that’s why so many people do it.

ETA- It does't make it any less damaging than anything that is illegal and could get you put in prison or the death penalty, its just something that the powers that be- in their stupidity, have made legal and therefore no one is really held accountable.

[This message edited by deephurt at 3:59 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)]

Ephimera posted 6/18/2019 18:24 PM

Yes, I think it's normal, just like it's normal across other species.

cocoplus5nuts, that's not quite accurate. Infidelity means being unfaithful, lying, deceiving. Animals don't do that.

I have heard so many arguments about how men are wired to not be monogamous, how women seek attention...blah blah!! The issue is not that. The issue is the deception. You don't believe in monogamy, well, don't commit to it. If monogamy is not normal, then don't get married.

What an idiot. See, while I post often about how "normalized" cheating is in my circles of men, this type of behavior would absolutely be shunned by that same group

Rideitout, why is he any more of an idiot than those willing to use other human beings as sex toys? I would think that your 'normal' cheating friends are the pathetic losers who need to use others to feel good and boost their ego.

Oh, I know why I have that wayward thinking going on. I'd enjoy what an A offers. There's no question about it, my WW's A reads like a "Penthouse letter" that I used to masturbate to as a teenager. When I read about affairs here, lots of them pretty much fall into my idea of dream relationship, lots of sex, no commitment, no dates, no nothing except meet up and f**k. That's something I enjoyed as a young man, and something I'm sure I'd enjoy today.

Have you asked yourself why you want to stay married? Your mindset doesn't align with monogamy. It seems more like a punishment.

When I read about affairs, I feel sorry for my WH, sorry that he has to face doing that everyday. And no, the idea doesn't appeal to me in the least!!

Married people who are screwing around often want to believe that monogamy is less common than it really is and they often want to believe that infidelity is more common than it really is. They will tell you that infidelity happens in all places and that it always has, as long as humans have existed. They will tell you that monogamy is "unnatural" and that humans are not designed to be faithful. They will point to their genes and/or their DNA. They will point to other cultures in which polygamy or open marriages are common. And on and on. Sometimes people who have chosen to remain married to partners who have been screwing around would like to believe that infidelity is "not normal". It can help betrayed spouses to get through it too.
People who break norms typically want to believe (and want you to believe) that breaking norms is common. Everyone is doing it.

Hephaestus2, that is the problem though, right? It doesn't matter whether cheating is normal or common. Because values should not depend on how others behave.

I do however, agree with one point, it's never expected. But perhaps it should be.

Rideitout, when I get into a contract, I don't go in with the expectation that it will be broken. Marriage is a promise. Yes, a lot of people break that promise. But the day we give up on believing that the right thing should be done, and accept wrong as the norm, we give up on humanity. I haven't lost my faith in the potential of goodness in people yet.

Hephaestus2 posted 6/18/2019 18:36 PM

Rideitout wrote >>>>> Infidelity is quite typical and usual. Statistics tell us this <<<<

Do they indeed? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What is the evidence for the claim that "infidelity is typical" or that "infidelity is usual"?

Rideitout posted 6/18/2019 18:43 PM

Have you asked yourself why you want to stay married? Your mindset doesn't align with monogamy. It seems more like a punishment.

Certainly didn't feel that way pre-A. Now, it's hard at times, and yes, it does feel like punishment sometimes. But, what you said doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Yes, I'd enjoy what my W's AP got. I think a lot of people would, especially people who enjoy lots of sex. But that doesn't mean that I don't like being married. I do. And I did before the A even more. Just because I like steak doesn't mean that I'm upset we're having pasta for dinner, I like that too. What's hard is that my W claimed to "hate steak" and then went and at the "Old 96'er" behind my back. I don't claim to hate steak, in fact, I really enjoy steak, but I promised never to eat it again, so I nosh on other things that I enjoy too. It's not punishment, but I'm also not going to say that I don't enjoy NSA sex with new people because I do. My WW is the one who claimed to not enjoy it (or even sex in general) before the A and then had, surprise, surprise, a near porn star level sexual escapade for a few months.

When I read about affairs, I feel sorry for my WH, sorry that he has to face doing that everyday.

What in particular are you talking about here? Because I certainly don't feel sorry for my W's AP, if anything, I'm jealous, he put in so little work/effort and got such a huge reward.

Rideitout, when I get into a contract, I don't go in with the expectation that it will be broken.

Neither do I. But if I start lending money to people with a 400 credit score, contract or not, I have to expect that quite a few of them aren't going to pay it back. That's just the reality of lending to people with poor credit. Yes, I can be upset that people don't pay me back, but, at the same time, the "what did you expect" phrase comes to mind. And lending to those with poor credit, let me tell you, it doesn't have a default rate as high as that on marriage (or affairs). So, I get what you're saying, but if you know that 30% of people who sign this contract break it, should you really be surprised when you have a default? I certainly wouldn't be in the business world given those stats, in fact, if I made a loan like that, I'd think to myself every month the check came in "well, that's kind of surprising, they're still paying". I'd expect a default because it's such a "risky venture". And, looking at M the same way, I should have "expected default" because the statistics say, well.. Default is very likely on this particular contract.

What is the evidence for the claim that "infidelity is typical" or that "infidelity is usual"?

We're not allowed to post links, but, some quick "Google-fu" on "percentage of marriages with infidelity" or "infidelity statistics" will reveal the information that you're looking for. And, IMHO, all those stats are understated, people have lots of reasons to lie, especially for an undiscovered affair, of which there are plenty for each A that's discovered, at least if my personal circle is any indicator.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 6:45 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)]

Shehawk posted 6/18/2019 18:43 PM

nope.

older than age 50, married for more than 30 years, never cheated.

not normal! know lots of people who don't cheat.

you and I, we just rolled the dice and lost. we just married cheaters :( cheaters cheat. people who don't cheat don't cheat.

cocoplus5nuts posted 6/18/2019 19:10 PM

I have heard so many arguments about how men are wired to not be monogamous, how women seek attention

If you read my entire post, you would see that I was not supporting this idea as an excuse to cheat.

Other animals do sneak around and deceive their mates.

Hurtbeyondtime posted 6/18/2019 19:19 PM

Oh what a topic 😳😱

Absolutely it is NOT Normal. I find that people who knowingly participate in affairs are truly a different breed of person. I don’t believe in the statement that someone made a mistake... that’s bullshit they made a deliberate decision to cheat. They chose themselves over everyone else... spouse, children, family and moral code..whether it’s religious based or purely your moral compass.
I have never cheated and nor will I. I know I won’t because it’s not in my DNA. People say never say never but I can say Never.
I have seen it’s destruction as a child and directly in my marriage.
I don’t believe that you were a good person that cheated. Good people don’t do that... they will think of the consequences and others. They aren’t selfish or narcissistic they are often self sacrificing for the good of others. They are supportive and just and couldn’t imagine doing the injustice infidelity brings to the family.

So yes all these selfish assholes tend to find each other because when they desperately need the reflection of themselves in someone’s eyes that puts them on a pedestal. Because when they turn around to look in our trusting eyes they realize that what they really are.. POS...land they cannot deal with the truth.

[This message edited by Hurtbeyondtime at 10:57 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)]

Hephaestus2 posted 6/18/2019 19:25 PM

Rideitout wrote >>>>We're not allowed to post links, but, some quick "Google-fu" on "percentage of marriages with infidelity" or "infidelity statistics" will reveal the information that you're looking for. <<<<

No need to provide a link. Just give the name of the lead author, the year of publication, and the name of the journal. The title of the article would help.

"Google it" is not an answer.

We both know that you cannot name a study that shows that "infidelity is usual" because no such study exists. The research on infidelity does not show that "infidelity is usual" or that "infidelity is typical" or that "infidelity is normal" no matter how far you stretch the definitions of "usual", "typical", or "normal".

AbandonedGuy posted 6/18/2019 19:32 PM

My dad cheated. Two aunts cheated. My stepdad's first wife cheated. My sister cheated. My best friend cheated. Two acquaintances I've known for almost 20 years habitually cheated. Close friend's ex-gf cheated. Coworkers have cheated. Cousins have cheated. Bitch who facilitated by ex-wife's affair cheated. Ex-wife, obviously, cheated. Whooooole lotta cheating. "Normal"? You betcha it's normal, assuming normal means the dictionary definition "usual, typical, expected". Maybe that last word doesn't fit because who among us truly expects it until it happens to us? But usual, typical...hell yeah. I'd bet that more people cheat than don't. It's baked into our DNA, the selfish desire to abandon our oaths and derive attention outside of a relationship. It's also in our DNA to steal and murder, but luckily those things are outlawed and there are deterrents in place. Infidelity isn't illegal and is generally accepted by society as just a thing that occurs, so good luck snuffing it out anytime soon.

Rideitout posted 6/18/2019 19:36 PM

No need to provide a link. Just give the name of the lead author, the year of publication, and the name of the journal. The title of the article would help.

Ahh.. Are there even studies to cite here? I've not seen one in any journal I've ever read with the exception of those talking about the spread of STD's and that's not really specific to infidelity, more promiscuity. But there are 100's of statistics gathered on this, just not published in medical journals. If that's your standard, it's impossible to meet, or, let me put it this way.. You first, cite me a study that meets your standards that shows infidelity is "rare".

And, before we diverge into that, I think we need to define terms here. That's why I tried, in my earlier message, to relate it to something else (eye color); are brown eyes "normal".. If we answer "yes" then we have a statistical basis to work from, a certain percent of people have brown eyes, therefore, if A's are that common or more, they are also "normal".

What is the definition of "normal" and "usual". I'll go first, my definition of a "normal" behavior is one that either a majority (>50%) or significant majority (30-50%) of people experience. I would say that infidelity, certainly if we expand it to "unfaithful in a committed relationship" (and not confined only to marriage) would easily cross that bar. And "usual" would be a behavior that is commonly exhibited; I'm less clear on this one, the actual "cheating" is not that common, IMHO. Even a serial cheat, they engage in their cheating behavior for a small period of time compared to their time doing other things (sleeping, eating, time with the family/wife, etc). So if that's the standard, if we looked at a single moment in time and said "who's cheating right now" no, it's not usual at all. However, a lifetime study, "who's cheated at all", would reveal a very different story.

Huh, I actually found one for you..

"Expectations regarding partner fidelity in dating relationships", Sarah J Watkins, Susan D Boon.

"the average person of the opposite sex has about a 42% chance of cheating on their partner.".

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:42 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)]

AbandonedGuy posted 6/18/2019 19:42 PM

It's like if somebody sneezes and an alien asks them "is that...normal???" The person, who sneezes maybe once every 3-6 months, goes "yeah, perfectly normal". It's normal because it's not out of the ordinary and when somebody does it you're not surprised. "Normal" is such a subjective term that attributing stats and numbers to it is an exercise in futility. If somebody goes, "Yeah, so and so cheated" you'd think "typical asshole". Everyone here with enough emotional space from DDay should be able to clearly see how "normal" cheating is. It happened to you directly and I'd bet the farm that more than 50% of us know people who have cheated on someone else. The fact that we can see someone else cheating and not go "OH MY GOD THE HUMANITY" means the behavior has been accepted by our society as "normal" to some degree or other.

truthsetmefree posted 6/18/2019 19:49 PM

By definition, normal includes the idea of “expected”. If I enter a contract of monogamy with the expectation of cheating then I am either not truly entering a contract of monogamy - or I have grown cynical.

While I appreciate the point of the analogy of brown eyes or poor credit scores, I think it to be moot in this particular discussion. Those are readily measurable. The likelihood of infidelity in my own situation - not so much.

Gettingoveritall posted 6/18/2019 20:21 PM

It appears that people are getting hung up on the word normal.

According to the American Cancer Society, 39.66% of males, and 37.65% of females will develop some form of cancer in their lives.

Is getting cancer a normal part of human existence? Do you expect to develop some form of cancer?

According to the CDC, 48% of women and 46% of men have some form of cardiovascular disease.

Is cardiovascular disease a normal part of human existence? Do you expect to develop some form of cardiovascular disease?

Again, from the American Cancer Society: .12% of men develop breast cancer, and .12% of women develop cancer of the larynx.

Is breast cancer a normal cancer for men to have? Is larynx cancer a normal cancer for women to have?

Rideitout posted 6/18/2019 20:24 PM

By definition, normal includes the idea of “expected”. If I enter a contract of monogamy with the expectation of cheating then I am either not truly entering a contract of monogamy - or I have grown cynical.

Or you're reading statistics and realize it's a reasonably likely breach of contract that you may encounter. I guess, put another way, depending on who you marry (and what risks they present), you certainly should't (as I did) view an A as "never going to happen". Stats tell us otherwise, it's not at all unlikely to happen, especially if you marry someone who presents a lot of risks.

I look at it the same was I do divorce. Is divorce "normal"? Well, some large fraction of marriages end in D, so.. Yes, I'd say it's relatively normal, even though it's a "breach" of the contract that most of us enter into (till death do us part). Yes, we make that vow, but it's normal to not make good on that vow. Infidelity, unfortunately, is much closer, IMHO, to the "normalcy" of a marriage ending in divorce.

truthsetmefree posted 6/18/2019 21:35 PM

I don’t disagree with you entirely, RO. I do think I understand your perspective.

I’m just not a big proponent of statistics. I don’t put a whole
lot of stock in them when it comes to predicting human behavior - or really the future for that matter.

This is also why I’ve taken exception to the use of the word “normal” in this discussion. I have trouble with the idea of “expected” for the same reason as I do statistics.

But even with that said, I am way more interested in the concept of values being determined by forces outside of ourselves. But that point was lost several posts ago.

Beachwalker posted 6/18/2019 21:56 PM

RIDEITOUT:

The longest threads since I've been on SI have all been about that very issue, WS's doing things for the AP that they wouldn't do with their BS's (and maybe still won't do, in some cases).

YES!! What is that about!! When I asked my wife why when J talked dirty to her, it turned her on to point she said, “I want you to make love to me, J!” Yet when I tried to talk to her that way, she got turned off and said she didn’t like it. Or when MF wrote sex stories he ought to get published he’s so good, but I try that and it doesn’t turn her on.

WHAT IN THE HECK IS UP WITH THAT!!! Why do other men get to have privileges with my wife I’m denied?

WornDown posted 6/18/2019 22:51 PM

What is the definition of "normal" and "usual". I'll go first, my definition of a "normal" behavior is one that either a majority (>50%) or significant majority (30-50%) of people experience.

Unless your name is Webster or Oxford, you don't get to make up the definitions. The whole reason for language and to have defined definitions of words is to properly communicate.

Just because you see something a lot does not make it "normal." The Chernobyl area has a lot of cancer in humans/animals - it's not normal.

The longest threads since I've been on SI have all been about that very issue, WS's doing things for the AP that they wouldn't do with their BS's (and maybe still won't do, in some cases).

[This message edited by WornDown at 10:54 PM, June 18th (Tuesday)]

Gettingoveritall posted 6/18/2019 23:30 PM

From the online etymology dictionary:

normal (adj.)
c. 1500, "typical, common;" 1640s, "standing at a right angle," from Late Latin normalis "in conformity with rule, normal," from Latin normalis "made according to a carpenter's square," from norma "rule, pattern," literally "carpenter's square," which is of unknown origin (see norm). Meaning "conforming to common standards, usual" is from 1828, but probably older than the record [Barnhart].

As a noun meaning "usual state or condition," from 1890. Sense of "normal person or thing" is from 1894. Normal school (1834) is from French école normale (1794), a republican foundation. The city of Normal, Illinois, U.S., was named 1857 for the normal school established there.

Ephimera posted 6/19/2019 00:13 AM

What in particular are you talking about here? Because I certainly don't feel sorry for my W's AP, if anything, I'm jealous, he put in so little work/effort and got such a huge reward.

Rideitout, I am talking about the experience of breaking one's commitment. I don't feel sorry for the AP. I feel sorry for my WS because he normally has high moral standards and he diminished himself in his own eyes by cheating. He hates that he ever made that choice.

I don't see an A as a reward. In fact I am often surprised by some BW and BHs alike who say that the WS got to have fun while they missed out. I value my integrity far more than getting validation.

Rideitout posted 6/19/2019 05:07 AM

Unless your name is Webster or Oxford, you don't get to make up the definitions. The whole reason for language and to have defined definitions of words is to properly communicate.

Yes, I agree, however, the definition of that word doesn't provide enough specificity to really have this discussion. I tried to explain my concept of "normal" which provides that level of detail, using the Webster's version:

1a: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
1b : according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle

Well, by 1a, I'd say that A's are normal. They are a regular pattern in human relationships. They are a negative pattern, no doubt, but they occur with regularity, no matter how much we all wish they didn't. By the 1b definition, no A's aren't normal, because the deviate from a rule/principle. Hence the reason it's so important to define terms, using the same word and the dictionary definitions, I have 2 entirely different answers, yes, it's normal or no, it's not.

Just because you see something a lot does not make it "normal." The Chernobyl area has a lot of cancer in humans/animals - it's not normal.

It's normal for that area. If you walked into a Dr's office with some really rare form of cancer at 25 years old, the doc would probably say, "wow, this is very abnormal". If you then added "Well, doc, I imported some glowing soil from Chernobyl (thanks Ebay) and filled my garden with it" he'd then probably say "Oh, well then, this is normal, most people who are exposed to glowing soil develop this type of cancer in 6 months".

And I feel A's are more like the "glowing soil" version. Think about it, you go into a psychs office after an A and tell them "my W cheated on me" they don't look at you like you've brought them glowing soil. No; in fact, one of the first things they say "This is very common" and "your not alone". Which, while both true, are things that help establish the normalcy of it. You got married (imported glowing soil), affairs happen relatively often in marriage (cancer from the soil), therefore what you're experiencing isn't outside the "norm" for your typical marriage.

Why does this this matter at all? Well, IMHO, because normalizing behavior makes it more likely to occur. Sites like Ashley Madison, Whisper, Snapchat, Tinder, etc.. All serve to normalize behavior that would have been unthinkable 100 years ago. Did affairs still happen 100 years ago? Sure they did. And for men, they were "normal" then too, for married women, not at all "normal". Not saying that's right, in fact, I know it's not right, but, that's the way it was. Affairs for men have long been "normalized", which, IMHO, is a major problem, why do the guys at work feel OK with sharing their war stories? Because of this normalization. Why did my WW confide in her friends about the A? Same reason. If we found the behavior wholly unacceptable, it would go underground and, IMHO, become less common. But huge billboards saying "Life is too short, have an affair" serve the opposite goal, making them more common and more a topic of discussion around the yoga mat or while shooting whiskey at the bar. Which is terribly sad, normalizing terrible behavior is not something that we want for society, we've seen where that leads in the past (and the present, sadly). It's not a good place.

YES!! What is that about!! When I asked my wife why when J talked dirty to her, it turned her on to point she said, “I want you to make love to me, J!” Yet when I tried to talk to her that way, she got turned off and said she didn’t like it. Or when MF wrote sex stories he ought to get published he’s so good, but I try that and it doesn’t turn her on.

IDK if you can search back far enough to find those threads, they are the longest I've ever seen in general, often 30+ pages. Lots and lots of different viewpoints on it. If you can't find them, start your own topic on it, I'm sure it'll get lots of participation.

Worndown, I realize you don't like this topic, but if a BW posted "Why is it that my WH was so in love with the AP" and I jumped in with "Not this shit again" how do you think that'd go? I realize that some, maybe a lot of people think this is a juvenile and silly issue (which is pretty much exactly how I feel about AP's falling in "love" and people stressing about "did my WH love the AP"), but, for at least some people (IMHO, a lot of BH's and at least some BW's) this is a huge, perhaps the biggest, issue to recovery. So I suggest you don't dismiss it out of hand like you have with that image.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 5:13 AM, June 19th (Wednesday)]