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hikingout posted 4/25/2019 13:08 PM

I agree that it's never a good thing if someone is being demanding. I can understand how people get polarized about sex in their relationship. It's not a turn on to be begged for it all the time or never considered until it's "time to butter you up", but...

I think the context that some of the BH's complain about this in is a bit of a headscratcher. I understand how a BW might not be interested in sex with her WH. I mean, even before cheating many of them probably acted like a selfish asshole. But, you can't really project that in the same way when it's a betrayed husband who has a Wayward Wife who just had sex quite enthusiastically with another man. It literally doesn't make any sense.

I just wanted to throw that out there, because it's not that I am not sensitive to issues women have, and I don't want it to be read that way. I feel that if someone's husband (or wife) for that matter is just all about them and selfish and someone has a health issue - that is one thing. Desire does ebb and flow for women, and we are absolutely worth more than we can offer someone sexually - exponentially. But,This is not what the BH's come here and paint week after week. I think we can't look at these situations like they are happening in a normal marriage or when the man is being the selfish one.

Yes, we as women can always identify with another woman saying they need emotional intimacy, or when we have had hormonal changes, pregnancies, uncomfortable periods, etc. My husband was very patient with me during all of those times. And, he wasn't selfish or unfaithful. I don't think for one minute he still would not be patient if I had a health issue or there was something going on. But, if I claimed "honey I am going through menopause and I just don't have the drive now or sex is painful for me" and he's being patient but then learns that I had all the hormones for this other man who I had sex with enthusiastically and frequently, what are we really expecting him to believe? He is going to think "She doesn't want me, she stays for some other reason". And, I think 9 chances out of 10? He's probably right. A wayward woman's response to bids of affection should at least include "I am having this problem, it's legitimate, let's discuss what we can do in the interim that makes this work for both of us". It CANNOT be "sorry, pal out of luck" When on earth would that ever be okay from a wayward spouse ---and honestly in a marriage not effected by infidelity I think it's still skating on thin ice to think it's ever okay to unilaterally decide something - everything in a relationship is a negotiation and the results should always aim for win-win.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:10 PM, April 25th (Thursday)]

havequestions posted 4/25/2019 14:26 PM

I think even if the situation didn’t improve but I knew my spouse was honestly trying to make the situation better for both of us, I would be ok with that. When you see that the other person really has no interest in improving things, it basically tells you that you aren’t worth the hassle.

hikingout posted 4/25/2019 14:50 PM

I believe that, havequestions. And, I mean I think that has backed you in to the corner in which you find yourself. You deserve to have a partner that is willing to work on things with you. Everyone does.

sami1234 posted 4/25/2019 14:50 PM

Things don't make sense for a reason. I'm wondering if WW has experienced sexual abuse in her past. That would line all of this up. Could be it is something she has never shared with anyone. It can really mess with your head and what seems "normal" just isn't anymore.

I'm saying if she won't go to therapy then you go alone and invite her to go with you until she shows up too. But if you think abuse is a possibility then tell her you care more about her than sex. If that is true, of course.

hikingout posted 4/25/2019 15:10 PM

I did consider this.

Look, I am a WW. I had sexual abuse in my past. I realize it can create frigidness for some, for me the issues were different but still required quite a bit of therapy. But it came up in therapy because I WENT. I went because I wanted to be better and because I wanted to save my marriage. This woman, even after being asked for a divorce, is doing nothing to say "Hey, I want this to be better between us. I want to come up with a plan. Can we give it time? I need to sort this out in therapy for a while, and see my medical doctor."

I just don't get why people defend the wives in these strings but in the threads where the Wayward Husbands are not taking any steps there is no one providing excuses for their behavior. I honestly wonder if they do not really see this as a love language/need with the same emphasis that other needs are looked at?

No matter what the situation, a wayward has put themselves in a position where they need to prove themselves. To communicate. To dig. To be empathetic to their spouse. Things we really should have been all along. This is no different just because it's sexual in nature. It's sensitive, yes. It might require some patience, I can see that. But, there is nothing wrong with the fact the man would like to have some hope of having a normal sex life one day. It doesn't mean he doesn't value his wife for anything else. It just means he would like to see that his wife loves him in a romantic way.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:12 PM, April 25th (Thursday)]

cocoplus5nuts posted 4/25/2019 16:04 PM

I don't think most of what you listed is selfish or unreasonable. I have an issue with expectations. They will always cause disappointment. You can want what you want, but you can't really expect another person to give it to you. If you aren't getting what you want, you can leave.

The first thing I thought of wrt her pain was PID. She could see a doctor about that.

But, she went out of her way to have sex with at least one other man. Either it isn't really painful for her, or she did things with him that she is refusing to do with you. That is a problem.

sami1234 posted 4/25/2019 21:48 PM

hiking: I'm in no way defending a wayward. BUT I do know that sexual abuse can lead some to act out with others and not be the same sexually with their own spouse. I always think therapy on your own is the best answer when the spouse (wayward to betrayed) refuses or says it won't work...this is a last ditch effort. Then make a decision

I'm not sure why this thread was begun when someone states they are on their way to D.

firenze posted 4/25/2019 21:54 PM

I just don't get why people defend the wives in these strings but in the threads where the Wayward Husbands are not taking any steps there is no one providing excuses for their behavior. I honestly wonder if they do not really see this as a love language/need with the same emphasis that other needs are looked at?

A question I ponder more and more as I read here. It's disappointing to say the least.

OwningItNow posted 4/25/2019 22:07 PM

I just don't get why people defend the wives in these strings

I feel this is an exaggeration. A couple people have offered a possible explanation, but nobody has defended the WW.

What response are you looking for? Venom? Ok, then. She is a horrible, selfish bitch. Divorce her! Isn't that what we're all saying???

Greeneyesbluezy posted 4/25/2019 22:12 PM

OIN,

At least provide the full sentence you are quoting. Perhaps, even the full paragraph just so we can understand better the intent of the quote.

[This message edited by Greeneyesbluezy at 10:15 PM, April 25th (Thursday)]

Rideitout posted 4/25/2019 22:45 PM

I just don't get why people defend the wives in these strings
I feel this is an exaggeration. A couple people have offered a possible explanation, but nobody has defended the WW.

Perhaps not this thread, but it's no exaggeration at all to say that people defend WW's in the "sexual access for BH" threads we've had. Some of them reached close to 50 pages, and trust me; having read every post on there, there's plenty of explanation and defending going on for WW who give their AP all the "good stuff" and gatekeep with the best of them for their H's. Plenty of her body, her choice and "that's not a reasonable requirement for R" in those threads.

What response are you looking for? Venom? Ok, then. She is a horrible, selfish bitch. Divorce her! Isn't that what we're all saying???

No, none of the above. Speaking for myself, I'm looking for consensus and understanding. We all seem to understand that "breaking NC is totally unacceptable R behavior" and yet disagree vehemently that "having sex 9 times a day with the OM and then going starfish with your H is totally unacceptable A behavior". I feel like my position is consistent, if a man spends his time in the A going down on the AP and refuses that to his wife after, I would tell him to D, as I would tell a BH who's wife goes all porn star anal queen with the AP and then comes down with a case of dead bedroom at home. Both are equally ridiculous and unacceptable to me. But the double standard is this, often during these threads the issue shifts to "foo issues" or "she was just doing it to impress the OM" or "gatekeeping is normal" in threads where it's a WW displaying this issue, where, in threads with a WH displaying this issue (much less common) there's a pretty direct consensus. The women say "that's unacceptable" and the men chime in right after with "totally unacceptable".

I just don't get why people defend the wives in these strings but in the threads where the Wayward Husbands are not taking any steps there is no one providing excuses for their behavior. I honestly wonder if they do not really see this as a love language/need with the same emphasis that other needs are looked at?

IMHO, that's exactly it. Sex is seen by some (men and women) as the "silly, juvenile, frat boy need" where other love languages are seen as more "refined and adult". Well, too bad. Frankly, I think words of affirmation are a stupid love language. Don't you realize that most people will say anything to have sex?? Is your self esteem really so low as to need someone to tell you that you're smart? It felt to me (before I understood it and equated it to my love language) like an immature and silly "need" from another person. But you know what? I don't get to judge what other people want and appreciate from a relationship. That's NOT my job. And in threads where a WH is here with a BW who's LL is words of affirmation, I do NOT tell him "that's a stupid love language, tell her to get a new one", I tell him to start reading books and learn some good things that his wife will appreciate hearing him say. Learn to speak her love language, don't belittle it, and, even worse, don't "gatekeep" it and only tell your wife she's pretty when she's giving you a BJ.

Hickoryapple posted 4/26/2019 05:05 AM

I just don't get why people defend the wives in these strings

I really hope this wasn't a comment on my response, as I would have said the same whichever gender was asking. Similarly, I've seen ppl commenting on the q asked, not directly *defending* the wife. If it was a comment about the initial questions in the original post, I suspect that's because a poster felt those circumstances *were* selfish, which is what what being asked. It's not a defence of the wife for the sake of it!

OwningItNow posted 4/26/2019 05:37 AM

Perhaps not this thread,

Ok, then. This is the thread we're in, and nobody is defending this WW.

steadychevy posted 4/26/2019 06:21 AM

Agreed, hikingout, and I very much appreciate your input here and other threads.

hikingout posted 4/26/2019 08:00 AM

So, to respond:

First, let me say that probably the statement about defending the wayward wife might have been a bit harsh. It did not have anger behind it but I could see how that could be construed.

What response are you looking for? Venom? Ok, then. She is a horrible, selfish bitch. Divorce her! Isn't that what we're all saying???

No, not at all. I am a wayward, I have tried to help other waywards articulate what they are saying, and have tried to provide insight to those struggling with the cheating mind. So, no I am really not looking to become a card carrying member of the "burn the witch" club.

I think many were saying divorce her. Yes. And, actually I think YOU gave him really good advice with "okay you have expectations, she's not doing her part, so now what are you going to do?"

Please know fellow SI'ers, I do not believe for one minute ANY ONE came into this thread and posted with mal intent to the OP. I think everyone was trying to be helpful.

What I am pointing out is there is an insidious factor to all of this where people seem to forget they are not just posting to a man, they are posting to a BETRAYED man. I think I have become very sensitive to that because I often put my husband in mind as I read these things. And, if he had come here after I did not do the work, after I refused to do anything about the problems that were hurting him and people are making suggestions like maybe he's not doing his part, or maybe he's being too pushy, maybe he's not understanding the pain she is in...even though I understand there is a somewhat common dynamic in marriages...it just doesn't strike me as the poster being seen with the right lens.

So, let's say a woman came on (and they do) "my husband is having performance issues, he refuses to do anything about it, or provide me with any physical intimacy" This is after having been cheated on and trying to stay and give the gift of R...there is no way we would be saying to her anything about what she is or isn't doing. We would be saying "What's he going to do about that" and when we hear "Well, he won't do anything about it", then that's that. He has no remorse, he doesn't love you, he can't be bothered, etc.

This man was betrayed. He tried to give R. He tried to communicate until he's blue in the face. Clearly, he is left with no choice.

So, in terms of Hickory Apple - No, I really wasn't referring to your post. It came early in the thread and allowed him to kind of recap what he has tried for posters who were not familiar with his story. But, then he had explained it.

I think what finally did me in, and Sami, I kind of have to apologize because I do realize your statement could have been read differently had I not been in the mindset I was when I read it, but when I saw:

But if you think abuse is a possibility then tell her you care more about her than sex. If that is true, of course.

Because to me, that reads that it's an insinuation that he doesn't care more about her than sex. And, to me that's a judgment of "You only care about sex and not your wife" I apologize if that's not the way it was intended to read, but the adding of "If that is true of course" is how I derived it.

Anyway, I am certain all posters wanted to help him. Some maybe read it as he would like to solve the issue of not having sex and so they probably were just giving the advice of how he could have a different understanding. But, in any post that does not have sex mentioned in it - when we hear "The wayward will not negotiate about this, will not communicate about this, will not go to IC or any other kind of therapy." Then what else is there really to say?

All I am trying to say is we need to really read these things with the focus of this is a betrayed person saying this, and no matter how the wayward is not stepping up (that is within the confines of humane and respectful) they are the one in the wrong. Period. By not following that line we are unintentionally (because I do believe it IS unintentional) invalidating the feelings of the Betrayed Man.

HoldingTogether posted 4/26/2019 08:05 AM

I would just like to say that hikingout is my hero right now.😀👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

That is all.

idissent posted 4/26/2019 08:25 AM

I had many of these issues (although I’m not a WS) until my suppressed sexual assault came to light. Unfortunately, that happened during my WH’s A, so there was no support there. I struggled with sexual issues for the duration of our relationship (after the honeymoon phase ended) and didn’t have a clue about my assault for 15 years. I tried changing birth control thinking it would shake up the hormones, but nothing. Mentioned it to my doctor, nothing. Was in therapy...but how does a therapist help with a repressed assault that their client doesn’t acknowledge?

I’m not suggesting this is the answer to your situation, but there are a lot of possibilities. She could just be a horrible person! But I know from painful experience that my trauma prevented me from acknowledging that trauma. It wasn’t because I didn’t want to get better.

hikingout posted 4/26/2019 08:32 AM

I had many of these issues (although I’m not a WS) until my suppressed sexual assault came to light. Unfortunately, that happened during my WH’s A, so there was no support there. I struggled with sexual issues for the duration of our relationship (after the honeymoon phase ended) and didn’t have a clue about my assault for 15 years. I tried changing birth control thinking it would shake up the hormones, but nothing. Mentioned it to my doctor, nothing. Was in therapy...but how does a therapist help with a repressed assault that their client doesn’t acknowledge?
I’m not suggesting this is the answer to your situation, but there are a lot of possibilities. She could just be a horrible person! But I know from painful experience that my trauma prevented me from acknowledging that trauma. It wasn’t because I didn’t want to get better.

I understand what you are saying. I do. I was in therapy for months before it even came up that I was sexually abused. It never occurred to me to bring it up, I had kind of forgotten about it. But it sure was wreaking havoc on my life, unbeknownst to me.

That's not what this is about. This is about, your spouse, who you cheated on saying "we need to work on these things". And you saying "Sorry, no".

It could very well be that because she is unaware of it that she can not address it. That there is a missed opportunity on her part. But, where does this leave her husband? That's really the point I am trying to make. It leaves him accepting that she will not go to therapy, will not see her doctor about her physical ailments and will not contribute to the marriage and accepting that they will not have intimacy in their marriage. I don't think that we can hold him to that. It's great if we are saying to him "ask her about that", "explore it". I like happy endings and reading positive R stories.

But if you have read his other posts he is married to a petulant child and you can only do so much with that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:33 AM, April 26th (Friday)]

Darkness Falls posted 4/26/2019 09:27 AM

when we hear "The wayward will not negotiate about this, will not communicate about this, will not go to IC or any other kind of therapy." Then what else is there really to say?

This. And it’s what I’ve said in all the other threads about the very thing RIO is referring to. You can’t make someone do what you want. You can ask, beg, plead, threaten, coerce, guilt, whine, demand, 180, cry, yell, intimidate, or all of the above—but the very plain and simple fact is that if something is important to you but not your partner and you can’t meet in the middle, the only two alternatives are live with it as is or divorce. That’s not defending WWs, it’s stating a fact.

fareast posted 4/26/2019 09:56 AM

havequestions:

You posed your questions in a general sense, but I think in doing so you are looking for affirmation that in your own personal situation you are not being selfish or out of line at all, in expecting your WW to engage in sexual intimacy. After reading many of your posts the answer is: of course you are not being selfish to expect to experience normal sexual intimacy in your M. Hikingout hit the nail on the head. Your wife is acting like an immature, petulant brat. As you have described she disrespects you in public, openly flirts with others, and has denied you normal sexual intimacy for years and years on top of her suspected infidelities.

I think your WW is an excellent manipulator and she gaslights you constantly. Do not let her create doubt. She is very prideful and has no interest in changing her behavior to save the M. Be strong and continue with the D process. Good luck.