SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m fairly knowledgeable in the legal system and divorce process aside from some of the legalese. I’m confident in knowing the process and what the expectations are on each party should that be the way forward. Timelines, support payments, costs, asset division etc.

I have not vetted the therapist. It didn’t even cross my mind that one might be "pro-cheating". I guess I have some digging to do.

Digging for truth has become a second full time job.

Thank you

ASC1226 is so right. A progressive therapist, depending on their moral center, may 100% support your wife in her desire for an "Open" marriage - multiple partners, etc. Although your wife most definatly has personal issues to deal with, at the current time the primary challenge is RELATIONAL....meaning your marriage.

Do you happen to know if this AP has a spouse? As others may have said....immediately notify the spouse or partner if yes.

You wife is under a horrible enchantment, blinded to what she can lose....a loving, faithful husband and secure family. This "friend" of your wife's has duped her into thinking her free sex lifestyle is glamorous. Trust me, that woman's marriage will end bitterly eventually.

Take charge my friend. May God give you strength and wisdom.

The diagnostic manual used by psychologists/psychiatrists spells out Personality Disorders. Borderline, Narcissist, Histrionic, Antisocial. It is my understanding that Europe has one diagnosis that can cover some or all of these. Usually you do see that they bleed into each other.

There is a mental illness, Bipolar, that has highs and lows way past what healthy people feel. There is medication for it.

There really are not many meds available for Personality Disorders because they are people’s personalities. Bipolar appears to become an illness due to genetics and, I guess, some severe traumas. I am not familiar with how that disease takes hold but I am VERY familiar with PDs. Social workers and cops deal with that a lot. One of my pet peeves is that lawyers do not have to take classes in issues like this, especially the ones who handle family issues.

If your wife has shown some personality traits that were a puzzle to you she might be on the continuum but not have quite enough behaviors to be diagnosed with PDs. Sadly no meds except to handle the depression that shows up in Borderline.

I suggest you download info on PDs and Bipolar. This is not in any way trying to diagnose your wife.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 5:51 PM, Thursday, November 28th]

Thank you Cooley, I’ll be sure to look into that. I’m presuming that with your experience you are directing me this way as you see signs that may suggest a PD of sorts

The AP does have a live in girlfriend. I’m going to try to find out how to advise her.

Thus far the only consequence to their affair has been getting caught and the emotions coming from that.

Good to see you posting Martyt, you are at a crucial point and the next days / weeks could be make or break.

One big difference is you found this site about 2 months in your journey before me so there is still a chance.

We had MC way too early and the counsellor was terrible, just trying to appease us both. When we had a good MC much later on it made me realise just how bad this first one was. After a couple of sessions where we explained the situation with me making it quite clear that I was reluctantly going along with this, we had one on one sessions. In mine she sympathised with my plight, but in hers it turned out she just told her she needs to live her life however she sees fit. If you could sue a therapist I would.

Agree with talking to his other half... who knows how "open" this is. (This is another thing I should have done way back at the beginning) You mentioned he told you she was chasing him? The guy must be a grade A asshole (no surprises there) to carry on with this when he knows you don't approve of open M.

You mentioned "kids" in your OP... was she talking about yours? You will find a common theme on this site that the presence of kids makes a massive difference as to how much a human can take. I am again good example of this.

Please take care of yourself, we all know how hard this is.

Martyt,

You seem to be looking at your W's infidelity as a problem that can be resolved in accord with general principles. Let me suggest that the only general principles that apply come from answering questions like:

What do YOU want?
Do you really want R, or is that a reflex? (For example, are you wanting R because of, say, fear of D?)
What do you think can be achieved?
What do you need to heal?

I know what it is to want R. I know I wanted R from the moment my W revealed her A. I just refused to commit until I saw consistent evidence for 90 days without an interruption that my W was a great candidate for R.

You see that your W is not remorseful. She's a lousy candidate for R right now. No one here knows the future - she may stay a lousy candidate; she may become a great one.

But right now, she's a lousy candidate. Now is the time to determine your requirements for R, to lay them out, and not to commit to R unless your W willingly, unequivocally accepts them. Accepting them with gratitude is even better and may be essential.

But you're well advised to keep in mind that you can't R with an unremorseful WS. You can achieve D or a life of pain if you try.

The last general principle is about your healing. The way I word it is that you heal by processing the grief, fear, anger, and shame out of your body. IMO, that's the best way by far to survive and thrive.

You can heal, because you can control what you do. You can't control others, so you can't control the choice between D & R.

*****

Martyt,

People do evil things, but does it matter if your W has a friend who counsels cheating? Your W didn't have to act in accord with that counsel.

Something does sound off with your W's behavior. Normal people don't ask for that sort of birthday gift. Your W doesn't need to be personality disordered; she could be suffering from something else.

That doesn't need to affect your decision, either. But if your W does suffer from a mental illness, it may be easier to extend your grace.

But love is not enough to make R work. R requires both partners' total commitment.

Love is not enough.

*****

A progressive therapist, depending on their moral center, may 100% support your wife in her desire for an "Open" marriage....

Our progressive - gay in a committed relationship, not observant of any religion - MC did ask us if kinks that we discussed appealed to us, and offered help if they did. She also counseled not bringing any kink into our M until we had resolved our thoughts and feelings about the A.

We quickly indicated it was D or monogamous R for us, and our MC immediately switched to things like: the A is on the WS, not on me; honesty was the best course in all cases for us, but it was especially necessary if we wanted to R. Our MC's moral framework includes requiring her clients - us - to define their own relationship, as long as we were honest with ourselves and each other.

That worked for us, despite our differences with each other and with.

I like to keep things as simple as possible. Infidelity is traumatic. A WS heals by changing from cheater to good partner, and that can't happen unless the WS does the necessary work. The BS heals by processing grief, fear, anger, and shame out of their body.

I agree that partners need to share a moral framework that supports the M they want. I agree that a therapist who doesn't share that moral framework in the right areas can obstruct healing, recovery, R, and/or D.

But what's important is what a therapist actually does with the clients, not the labels put on the therapist externally.

Hey Ozzy, yeah she was talking to him about our kids. I can’t confirm because she deleted the texts but she claims that she was telling him that she can’t do this with him because she has a husband and kids.

I think that although she might have said that, her actions and statements since are an indication that, those "hindrances" may not be as strong as she was letting on.

I’ve gotten so many versions of where she is at since finding this all out 9 days ago that it’s near impossible to know where she really is with everything.

We talked about her IC session that she had today and yes she is being swayed away from our marriage. That could be because of what my wife is saying in there too so not necessarily the therapist’s doing. She told the therapist that she is 70/30 leave/stay. She has always tended towards rewriting history with us to suit her current mood/feelings.

I might just have to relegate myself to the fact that this may well be over.

She said that she is not going to make a decision to stay/leave until after Christmas for the sake of our kids.

I understand from doing a lot of reading since Discovery that the movie response of instant remorse and wanting to work things out is not realistic.

It is true that there is a learning curve for WSs to get up to speed on how to save their marriages and betrayed spouses. It is also true that there is an interval during reconciliation where the BS should be patient and allow for the individual counseling-therapy to take effect. And, it is true that there is a period of time it takes for some WSs to climb out of their affair fog and recommit to the marriage…

but damn, what your WS is doing right now requires a hard 180.

I personally don’t subscribe to wooing a recalcitrant WS back to the marriage. I don’t subscribe to waiting patiently, obediently for the WS to come back to the marriage at their leisure, at the expense of my dignity, my welfare, my reputation, physical and emotional health, and precious time.

That humiliation, disregard and disrespect would, for me, overshadow and taint the entire reconciliation and recovery process. That would be my first impression of what the future might hold and would be very difficult for a WS to live and love down.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:19 PM, Thursday, November 28th]

Sisoon and Reality blows...great input.

Martyt...I am so sorry friend. She said 70/30 leave/stay. That is utterly horrible. She should be in a position where she is begging you to stay with her...not where you feel like you would have to wooo her back.

There are much more knowledgeable people here than me, but I know this ...my heart feels with and for you. Take heart....be strong. Lean into God ....He can strengthen you.

Martyt

You may be taking the wrong approach with this. She is the one that has betrayed your marriage by having an EA (Emotional affair) with her co-worker. Giving romantic attention, discussing sex with another man, and arranging to have sex with another man is an Emotional Affair. The only reason was not physical is because you caught her.
SHE DOES NOT GET TO DECIED IF SHE STAYS OR GOES, YOU DO!
She has to decide now, or its done. Respect yourself.
If you want to save your marriage, you need to be prepared to lose it!
The reason you have serval appointments with different attorney's is so she knows you are serious and that your marriage is at stake.
You need to take time to process her betrayal and decide if you can still trust her. Give yourself a few months to decide, she is on probation until then.
Without trust and respect in your marriage, it will fail! Love is not enough.
A spouse who asks to sleep with other people, repeatedly, dose not respect their spouse.
You provide her with your conditions, to even consider reconciliation. If she does not agree, then you have nothing to work with.

At minimum your conditions should be:
1. she finds a new job
2. No contact with the AP and the Friend, ever!
3. No more deleting texts
4. you get full access to her electronic devices, she lost her privacy when she betrayed you.
5. her phone needs to be setup so you can track her location.
6. She admits her indiscretion to all her/your family and friends
7. She tells the AP's girlfriend while you are present or listening (speaker phone)

Thank you again for the advice.

the initial shock I think had me in the preservation mode of wanting to fix things for our family. As the tornado clears my mind is also getting clearer and starting to see things for what they are. Especially when it comes to how she has been since D-Day.

I am in full agreement with the her being on probation for the time being. I'm at the point where my hope has diminished significantly in regards to whether she will want to fix things or not.

"That humiliation, disregard and disrespect would, for me, overshadow and taint the entire reconciliation and recovery process. That would be my first impression of what the future might hold and would be very difficult for a WS to live and love down." - These are phenomenal words and depict my feelings at this time.

God and Prayer have carried me through many awful things in life....this being the worst by a significant degree but He always guides.

the initial shock I think had me in the preservation mode of wanting to fix things for our family.

Naturally.

As the tornado clears my mind is also getting clearer and starting to see things for what they are.

Your mind is clearing a lot faster than mine did.

Your WS is actually helping you in that regard by doubling down on her betrayals, reaffirming that she is currently not reconciliation material. This leaves you with only one option, one path to take. She’s forcing your hand. She’s not stringing you along with false reconciliatory overtures, except for her cake eating sentiment about wanting to stay together…while she sleeps with another man.

I would begin-continue your steadfast journey out of infidelity, as the others have already well mentioned. If there’s any hope of turning her around, cutting through that fog, it will be when she realizes that she is actually, ACTUALLY going to lose you. That her actions, or lack there of, are pushing you away. The only prerequisite required is that she cares. She has to care about losing you. Losing YOU, not just the family. The only way for you to know, and her to realize that she cares, is for her to understand, in no uncertain terms, that she will lose you, for her to witness the process of losing you, for her to see you actually leaving, by steady degrees, starting with The 180.

Every step she takes towards infidelity is countered by you with steps away from infidelity. Every bit of inaction from her to save the marriage is countered by you with actions to end the marriage. Inconsistency on her part is met with consistency on your part, to get out. If there’s anything within her that wants this marriage, she’ll have ample, but progressively fleeting opportunity to save it, and you will avoid being caught up in limbo.

IMHO, this is really the only action a BS can take to organically break a WS out of the fog. Anything else is a manipulation tactic that will usually yield something less than true desire.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:49 AM, Friday, November 29th]

She said that she is not going to make a decision to stay/leave until after Christmas for the sake of our kids.

I suggested that your main goal right now is to buy time.
To limit the damage to what has already taken place, and to prevent an escalation.
Once you have that you have breathing space for things to calm down and clarify.

Make your refusal to grant this request very clear, and that any further infidelity-behavior will erode whatever hope or wish you might have to reconcile. That if she can’t hold back then this will inevitably end in divorce.

Make that very clear to her: That if she can’t hold back and keep away from OM then she IS making a decision, and that the decision is to press the button in you that activates YOU ending the marriage.

One very common trap most betrayed people fall into is placing power into the hands of the WS. Your WW seems to think that she can decide to remain in infidelity, and then decide if she wants the marriage or not. Well... she can decide to remain in infidelity, and she can even decide if she wants to remain married or not. What she seems to forget, is that YOU can decide if YOU want to remain in a marriage impacted by infidelity – irrespective of if shes still meeting OM or not.
I suggest in the strongest of ways that you make it crystal-clear to her that if you discover ongoing contact with OM and/or an escalation of the affair then you are filing – even if that happens on Christmas Day.

Once again: The question you seem to ignore – is the OM married? Why the hotel?

I think you should consider seizing the initiative. This will do several things for you: 1) reinforce your agency and self esteem 2) pour cold water on her so if she is in a limerant fantasy it might help get her out of it.

How to do this? Tell her you won't share your wife's mind, heart or body with anyone else. Then tell her that you don't want to be married to someone who is 70% out the door and continuing an affair so you are filing for D now, not after Christmas.

This has a great chance of getting her out of limerance if she is actully in it; if she is just about to exit for other reasons then it doesn't matter what you do. But that is a secondary reason for filing for D. Your agency and self esteem are more important long term.

Do it now, not in January. See how she responds, you can always stop D proceedings or put them on hold if you see a sincere chance to R and you decide you want to go that route.

Hey Bigger, thank you! Can you explain what you mean by a goal right should be to buy time? I’m confused by that.

I’ve told her in no unclear terms this morning that divorce is the way forward if she refuses to want engage in couples counseling. Her rebuttal was that she doesn’t want things to change for the kids. I told her that she already made that choice to change everything. She then went onto the offensive and she isn’t sure she even wants to work on things. I said, well then divorce is the only way forward. She left to the bedroom crying and 5 minutes later came out as if nothing was wrong and asking about Christmas gifts for the kids.

There must be more at play but with her refusal to seek couples therapy I don’t think she will even entertain the idea that she may be imbalanced.

She said that when talking to her therapist yesterday she "heard herself talking" and it sounded worse than what she had in her head.

Again she has often tended to repainting history to suit current feelings so I’m not surprised, nor do I trust what she says her therapist was telling her. She told me that her therapist asked her if I was GAY!?!? I am not nor have I ever had any gay tendencies but she has thrown that in my face before when she didn’t get her way in arguements.

As for the OM….my wife and I are in our mid 40s. The OM is mid 20s, has a live in girlfriend. They live together with (of all things, with an old friend of mine and his wife. He is my old friends step son🤦🏻‍♂️

I’ve talked to my friend prior to calling the OM out of respect for him in case things went to sh*t when the OM and I talked.

My friend, knowing where the OM works, right away knew it was something to do with my wife and said that in the couple weeks prior, the OM had been sneaking around the house and they all knew something was up.

So this is why the hotel.

TRDD, I told her this morning we may as well just go to start divorce proceedings. She again left for 5 mins and returned saying that she is now willing to work on things but needs to do that from somewhere else.

Financially we can’t afford to rent an apartment for some unforeseen amount of time (her suggestion). So we settled that she would go to her parents.

We each work shift work and work opposite shifts so that there is always someone home with/for the kids. So the days that she is working and I am off she will be staying at her parents.

But again she has a skewed view and says that maybe this will make me realize that I need to "up my game" and "miss" her.

I have no family near and friends can’t be burdened with me staying at their place so at home I will stay which legally is a better position anyhow.

I can see where this is all going, I think.

I haven’t talked to any of her family about anything but I’m starting to feel inclined to talk with her sister to maybe get her head out of the fog she is in or at least hear from someone other than the OM and her open marriages friend to offer some stable perspective.

Thoughts on that? It’s one of those things where if it’s going to divorce which it is looking more than likely, is it worth causing issues where for now anyway I think we could navigate the divorce stuff pretty amicably.

Get to a lawyer. There are subtleties in the law that you want to be aware of. Also in some states you can legally separate before D and that protects you financially. Let them guide you through the process, whether you use mediation or not. With her selfish behavior, don’t put it past her to try to take advantage of you.

I am sorry she is the opposite of remorseful. I know it is crushing. But actually it is a good thing - you will not be strung along in false R for months or years like so many of us have been. It’s a terrible unwanted gift but a gift nonetheless when they show us who they are.

Does the AP’s girlfriend know? Blow that up.

And take care of yourself. Your health can take a real hit from all this. Are you in IC? It really helps to have people to talk to.

What a mess! Her behavior could put you and your children at risk. She wants to have sex with a stranger if you don't let her have sex with OM!

And putting her on probation? She doesn't think her behavior is wrong, she believes she is not guilty of anything. That gets you nowhere. She is not remotely ready for reconciliation.

Your wife has issues but you can't help her, she has to work thru this on her own. She may need more than a counselor. It may take a lot of time, and may never help.

Start getting ready, get finances figured out, see an attorney. Protect you and your kids.

I don’t know your wife, but you describe someone who has had a personality change, actually it is more of a character change. Character is a trait that doesn’t usually change in healthy adults. That makes me suspect that she is experiencing some sort of mental health distress. I see that you are in Canada. In the US a therapist cannot disclose confidences to a third party without consent of the patient and I expect the same is true in Canada. But, a therapist may listen to a third party who has information that may assist in the patent’s treatment. If your wife is experiencing a manic episode, the meds would be different than for depression alone.

I have mixed feelings about out of house separation. It’s useful when you’re at each other’s throats, kids are exposed to toxicity, if divorce is imminent, if parties need space to cool off and soul search but…

It can interfere with communication, transparency, observance of boundaries, disclosure. It can give tacit approval to stray from the marriage ("I slept with him while we were separated, so it’s not really cheating"). It can provide opportunity to continue or follow through with cheating behaviors. It can interfere with progress towards R or D and mire you in limbo. It can interfere with trust building.

Just something to keep in mind.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 8:24 PM, Friday, November 29th]

You are doing well despite a terrible situation. It sounds like the threat of D moved her a bit today, which is a benefit of seizing the initiative if you want R. Seein a lawyer for consultation would be smart right now for your benefit and it also makes it real for her.

Shining light on her behavior will likely help a lot. With her sister as you said and informing the AP girlfriend too. Have you been blunt with her about this guy? Her sister could help with that too. She needs to hear the truth of the matter:

Yes, its flattering to have a 20 something chasing after you when you are in your 40s. But has she never learned there are many, many men who will say or do anything to get a woman in bed? Older, younger, whatever. She will be his middle age sidepiece, laying compliments on thick and fast until she opens her mouth and legs. That's what she's head over heels for, to feel young again. Its probably true that both of you could be doing a better job desiring the other and making each other feel it. That's what middle aged with kids feels like for most couples. But she has gone off the deep end over a snake oil salesman trying to get in her pants and she needs to hear that. Not many therapists will deliver that message unless they have experience with infidelity. You should deliver it and her sister too.

There is a real thing with quite a few women where their libido drops off after marriage and kids. For some women, they feel that way for a long time then meet the slick talker and the libido starts to burn again... but some women confuse that with being in love. They think 'I must be in love with him because I am lusting after him and not my husband'. They dont understand the dynamic they are in and misinterpret the signals horribly.

[This message edited by Trdd at 8:40 PM, Friday, November 29th]