SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's coming up on the 6 month anniversary of D-day for me, and I've been thinking a lot about reconciliation and what I would like to see happen in our relationship.

A few questions are bouncing around in my head of late:

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

2. As I have said in a previous post, our couples therapist is not addressing the affair at all (going to find someone else), and my wife is doing a lot of the things recommended in the affair recovery books, not all, but a lot. I see her efforts, and appreciate them, but in the back of my mind I wonder if she is really digging deep to change, or if she is doing the superficial things in order to say she "gave it a good try".

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile. The last few weeks I've been having a difficult time though. Every time I think positive things about her, the "she intentionally betrayed me" thoughts creep in and ruin my good mood. I'm having a difficult time getting past the idea that she intentionally had an affair, and that this affair really for all intents and purposes destroyed the part of our marriage that mattered - our vows to each other. Without vows we might as well just be friends with benefits.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

For me, the first thing I had to learn was to trust myself. To know, regardless of what I chose (R or D) or what I did next, that I was sure I was going to be fine. Second part of it is, blind trust never helped anyone here in this forum -- so it's more of a trust as we go type of deal. Got to have it, always got to check on it. Most important for our R, is my wife goes out of her way to make sure I'm in the loop. That earns additional trust over time.

We can never control who we're with, we can only control our response to adversity.

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

Every WS is different, but my wife owned it all. She owned her shitty choices. And some WS never figure out healthy validation, mine learned to love herself again, and that's big. She learned she didn't need validation from me or anyone else. For my wife, she betrayed herself, she lowered or ignored her own rules -- I was the collateral damage from that fall, but she at least never wanted to fall that far ever again.

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

Well, at least your wife is showing some honesty here. It's a safer path to tell you what you want to hear. If it wasn't fun, they wouldn't have kept at it. I do think feelings at some level, healthy or otherwise are invested in an A -- big risk needs a big reward. As I've read and seen, there is a mourning period, like the end of any invested relationship. For me, my wife at least felt like her choices were not worth the pain she caused me. That's a start.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

You're normal or much farther ahead of me. At six months, I was still in shock. I barely had my feet on the ground. It was about one year in, I turned to my wife and told her, love ain't going to be enough to save us.

I was done.

Then, she kept working at it anyway, and so did I. We sort of put one foot in front of the other, worked for a good day and then tried for another.

We don't ever owe this last chance, my wife really appreciated the opportunity to show her best self again, and after going through Hell, I'm a stronger, better spouse on the other side of it now too -- it just took a long time and a lot of consistent effort by both of us.

The vows, as you noted are broken. The deal is broken. The only reason to hang around is if both people want to fight for something more, something better. What's better? Here at home, we wake up and choose each other every day. Love isn't enough, but we add in care, kindness and effort that really was missing in our pre-A M. Not that marriage can as infidelity, it cannot. We just recognize how to go at this thing the way each of us needs now.

It's coming up on the 6 month anniversary of D-day for me, and I've been thinking a lot about reconciliation and what I would like to see happen in our relationship.

A few questions are bouncing around in my head of late:

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

One of the permanent losses due to the A is a sense of complete trust. "Implicit trust" "naive trust". Pick the name. You might have felt you were at 100% trust, but that is gone, and it isn't coming back. I'm not saying it would be impossible for some people here to re-establish that with a new partner, but my point of view was that my perception and belief around trust was simply wrong and had to be reworked. That would apply in R or in a new relationship. I can never trust anyone again like I did before the A. Myself included actually.

So then the new, more pragmatic version of trust, has to be built by her earning and proving she does what she says. Time and again.

I also took a wider "trust inventory". I sort of forget which book it was (What makes love last by gottman?). Anyway trust is actually still multifaceted. I trust my wife financially. I trust her to make good parenting decisions. I generally, affair aside, trusted my wife immediately after the A. So different people might have different answers. You could take the inventory and find a pattern of honesty and accountability otherwise or you find a whole pile of lies. Since she is generally honest and accountable, I was able to not exactly "compartmentalize" the affair, but understand it was coming from a place that was more generally out of character rather than the tip of a shit iceberg.

2. As I have said in a previous post, our couples therapist is not addressing the affair at all (going to find someone else), and my wife is doing a lot of the things recommended in the affair recovery books, not all, but a lot. I see her efforts, and appreciate them, but in the back of my mind I wonder if she is really digging deep to change, or if she is doing the superficial things in order to say she "gave it a good try".

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

Written specific goals and a plan to achieve them were the turning point in my R (only after I had asked for D in writing).

That said, I am not certain she would never cheat again. I'm merely sufficiently satisfied that it is unlikely, that the benefits of the marriage are worth the risk of her repeating. Furthermore, I feel more prepared to address a recurrence. Lastly, I allow myself an equal amount of uncertainty. That I might wake up one day and change my mind that R isn't working out well enough to be worth the risk, and I will also end it.

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

I think it takes a while for a WS to turn the table on those memories. It was quite some time later (year 2?) after my wife was doomscrolling reddit and a similar story to ours came up. She came to me crying saying, "I'm so sorry I was so shitty to you".

I think that most WS's really do enjoy the time and company of their AP. They built seemingly fond and positive memories of their activities together. This is the motivation of many wayward behaviors. Blameshifting. Minimizing. Continued lying. It's hard to be the bad guy in your own story, and the emotions tied to the AP, at least initially, are positive. If it didn't feel good, people wouldn't cheat.

I think once she "detoxes" from the A completely, like an addict in recovery, she'll see the A felt good, but it wasn't good for her.

These big emotions don't turn on a dime.

4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile. The last few weeks I've been having a difficult time though. Every time I think positive things about her, the "she intentionally betrayed me" thoughts creep in and ruin my good mood. I'm having a difficult time getting past the idea that she intentionally had an affair, and that this affair really for all intents and purposes destroyed the part of our marriage that mattered - our vows to each other. Without vows we might as well just be friends with benefits.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

I consider my vows destroyed. I would not do a vow renewal. I'm happy in a marriage that despite being very solid and something that very well ought to last the rest of our lives, I philosophically view as uncertain and impermanent.

I don't know if this is something you can be happy and satisfied with, but I am.

This is a totally normal place to be 6 months out.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:47 PM, Wednesday, October 16th]

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

100% you should be concerned. This was a long term affair where she had as you said they had unprotected sex hundreds of times. It is natural that she would view this as positive as she would have stopped if it wasn’t satisfying. Her response about why she won’t do it again, as you stated, is for all the wrong reasons. The fact that it hurt her (and probably him) to end the affair is not a deterrent for this to happen again. Either with the AP, or another guy down the road. The fact that she says she hurt you as a reason to trust is also crap. The fact is the affair was wrong. She should be telling you it was the biggest mistake of her life and be begging you for forgiveness.

I am probably in the minority, but I’m a big believer in consequences being a good, but obviously not foolproof deterrent. What have you done to turn this positive event for her into something she will never even consider again? I’m also not in the camp of tolerating any wistful thoughts about the affair. I think my wife regretted it, but I made damn sure the consequences helped in any positive thoughts she might have had about it. I just don’t buy into letting them through time come to this conclusion. After what she did she should be willing to crawl over broken glass to win you back. Not that she still might not have positive feelings about their relationship, but she better keep that in her mind and not expect you to console her.

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?

I have to ask, how was she able to keep this thing a secret? This wasn’t just some ONS at a business trip, this was hundreds of time and included a pregnancy! In order to regain some kind of trust you need to shut down all the avenues she used to hide this. Did she have friends or family that covered for her? Was it with someone she worked with? If that’s the case the friends and the job has to go if it happened there. If it was under the pretense of going to a class or the gym, that also needs to be addressed. The fact she was able to do this for so many times and so long requires a real talent for deception. You need to be smarter than her. If you can’t figure out how she did it, you will be powerless to stopping it again. In order to gain back trust she needs to be 100% transparent. Are you getting that. Have you cut out any route where she may contact him again, and vice versa? In order to build back trust you need first to address these things.

It is disturbing that she isn’t all aboard. She should be reading everything she can get her hands on. She shouldn’t be doing some things suggested by Affair recovery. She should jumping in head first to do everything.

You can’t nice her back.

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again?

There’s another question lurking behind that question. That one is…

Even if WW does all the things I need, and I have come to trust her completely again, will that be enough?

I’ve seen it here plenty of times. Long ago affair, partner is exemplary following, has done everything possible right, life is good, many years go by…and it rises from the dead. Or it never went away.

They can do absolutely everything right, and it may not be enough. If it’s not enough, then it is you, not them. And that is OK.

So as you grind through this process, spend at least half your time pondering on whether it is just too much even if they meet your every demand. If you realize the answer is ‘no’ might as well not waste anyone’s time. If you think it is ‘yes’, then put as much healing/growing time into yourself as you ask from them. That is your work to do, for yourself, that they can’t help you with really.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 11:37 PM, Wednesday, October 16th]

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

In the end, I learned to trust myself. And that was the game changer. WH could earn trust via proven behavior over time. But that blind faith, beyond the shadow of a doubt trust was forever shattered. So I learned to trust myself. Trust in my own healing. Trust in my own strength.

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

I had to let go of that as a goal. I was always so damn certain he'd never cheat on me to begin with and that as we know was a lie [I was so confident I even told LTAP this the one time she came in town to one of WH gigs - but that a story for another day]. So now I know that he is capable of this. And that is % on him.

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

At 6 months out - she's most likely in the say anything phase. She wants the affair to be forgotten. She wants to rugsweep the affair. And she's probably clinging to the facade that "it wasn't really me that did this to you". Sadly that's about the norm at this stage. And IMHO that bullshit of how "letting go of that relationship was so painful for her" is a mega bitch slap to you. How dare her! I'm sitting here fuming on your behalf. She's in pity party mode. She's more about avoiding her own pain than helping you through yours. She is not [at least not yet] a safe partner.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

There's nothing normal about infidelity. But sadly at 6 months out - her being in self preservation/pity party mode and you being in the trying to make sense of it all mode is about as "normal" as it gets.

TAKE YOUR TIME. You need to heal you and she needs to heal her before you can heal the marriage. And you are under no obligation to make a firm decision on that at this time.

1. For us, I found that there were certain little things I could trust early. This was because of his actions. And, I tried really hard not to trust him. But, I could trust him to care for our child. I could trust him to show me his phone. I could trust him to help me navigate a problem I was having functioning with normal life while also dealing with the trauma of his betrayal. I could trust him to make me a meal when he saw that I couldn’t eat. Weirdly, I could trust him to do dishes. (He’d never done them pre A). We also used the Gottman trust inventory. He did a 101 small things that I couldn’t deny he was doing. Will I ever trust him blindly again. No. I’ve learned that the only person you can put that trust in, is yourself. He could always do this again. I really think we’re past that, but he could.

2. There is a part of me that recognizes that he could cheat again. I have no control over that. But, I do know that I can keep myself safe if he does. My brain will see how far we’ve come and double down on wanting to dig deep into searching for evidence that he’s not fully committed. Bottom line, if he cheats….it’s on him…not me. As difficult as it is for me to swallow sometimes, it had nothing to do with me. He was looking for a painkiller and OW/ex "friend" was willing (not special). There will always be someone willing. When the A was going on, I felt there was something cosmically amiss. He will never again be able to say "she’s just a friend" and he knows it. He will never again be able to say to me that "it’s all in your head" because my response to that is VERY different now. I trust myself more than I trust him. Our MC said he had one job - Be trustworthy. That’s all. I appreciate the work we’ve both done to get us here. It was/is a monumental and continuous effort for us both.

3. I’m certain that my FWH enjoyed the A. If it wasn’t enjoyable in some ways, why would they do it at all. 5 years out, he conveys that he is disgusted that he went there. Do I believe that 100%, no. I think most WS never believe they’ll be caught. And for my FWH and for many, once that illusion is broken, it is a bucket of cold water. I could see him mourn the loss of the friendship he had with her, that we had between our families. That was a very difficult thing for me to see. He could have feelings to work through about that, but I couldn’t be the one that he looked to for support in dealing with that. He, my very stoic FWH, embraced IC. It isn’t a real relationship. It has none of the ups and downs of being truly connected to a partner over time. It is a fantasy land.

4. That thought and others will linger. It pops up for me still, not as often, but still. It will become less intense. A year out, I don’t think I could have formulated these questions. If you’re asking if it is worth living through this pain and doing the hard work of recovery and reconciliation, that is an answer you’ll only find within yourself. For me, our marriage will never be the same….and in so many ways I’m glad for where we are and how we arrived here makes me monumentally sad.

R for us has been so many small , but enormous efforts, daily…little things that we show each other that we’re showing up for each other. Imperfect, bad moods, being vulnerable, being present for each other. As one of my other favorite regular posters here wrote…..like the dread pirate in the Princess Bride….Sleep well, I’ll most likely kill/divorce you in the morning. My MC calls it a quick release. If I have to be done, it is ok to be done. Pre-A, the thought naively never crossed my mind.

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?
Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

The decision to trust, is yours, as it was mine and as it is every person's. You are the only one who can decide whom you will trust.
My W rebuilt trust with, I think, thousands of trust-building actions that included:

1) answering all my questions consistently, even though I asked them multiple times from multiple POVs
2) getting less defensive as time went on
3) hearing me
4) asking for what she wanted and responding honestly to my requests
5) sitting in MC sessions and taking confrontation after confrontation from our MC and changing in response to them
6) there was more, but I can't think of the words....

2. What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

Well, she didn't. I know in theory she can cheat again. I also know that she used IC and MC to close up a lot of her vulnerabilities to cheating. I know she never wanted to cheat. I know that I required a lot more from her than not cheating again - I wanted a better M than we ever had before, and we had a good M before the A. W was willing to do and actually a lot of work to achieve that. So did I.

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".
Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

I'd be very concerned. I was OK with my W remembering pleasure from the sex, because I can't imagine doing sex without pleasure, but good memories of the A and reluctance to throw the ap under a bus would have given me 2nd thoughts about R.

As it happened, my W says the first few sexual encounters were pleasurable, but then it became a real chore. On d-day she said that she thought ow was a woman with many positive characteristics, but as of d-day, she had no fond memories of the A. She knew she had violated too many boundaries to count, and she was committed to doing everything she could think of to prevent violating those boundaries in the future.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would hold off on committing to R until and unless my WS realized how her A was a betrayal of herself and of you. As I wrote - perhaps not in so many words - your MC is isn't helping and can't help until your WS is held to account. I would expect a good MC to thank a WS for honesty, and if the WS continues to say they had a great time in the A, I'd expect the MC to recommend D. I just don't see a WS who has fond memories of a period in which they lied to their BS as a good candidate for R. Thinking that breaking up was too painful to contemplate again makes me even less confident your W is a good candidate for R right now. (That means 'nw'; she could become a good R candidate in the future.)

4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile … I'm having a difficult time getting past the idea that she intentionally had an affair, and that this affair really for all intents and purposes destroyed the part of our marriage that mattered - our vows to each other. Without vows we might as well just be friends with benefits.
Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

Well, I get the desire to R. I certainly had it from the moment my W revealed her A. I wanted it even before my W said she wanted to stay together.

But wanting is different from doing. I didn't actually commit to R until I had seen my W work consistently for R for 90 days - and it would have been better if I had waited longer, just on general principles. She worked 100%, never a slip, for those 90 days. She certainly made mistakes during those 90 days, but I believe every choice she made was in the service of R. I committed to R because I figured we had resolved lots of issues in that period, and I predicted we'd resolve any issue that arose in the future.

But I had gotten past trying to control our future. I knew I could be making a mistake. I consoled myself with, 'If you hit an issue you can't resolve, you can always split.'

Have you committed to R? If so, I think you've done so too early. My reco is to tell your W something like, 'I want to R, but I'm not confident enough that you're as committed as I am. I have the following concerns: ....' If you've already said that explicitly, great. If you haven't your best approach is to do so, IMO.

And another reco is to find a new MC, one who will address the A first.

As for where I was 6 months out, I was still uncertain R would succeed for us. I had just come through a rage stage, which started 5 months out. At the time, SIers spoke of a rage stage coming at 6 months out, so I was either on schedule or a bit early. You don't mention rage, but that may not be a problem. Everyone's timeline is at least a little unique. I'd question myself if I didn't hit rage somewhere between 4 and 12 months out, but I could be wrong.

BTW, when I joined SI, people wrote about d-day 'antiversaries.' I still use the term, but in some ways I'm a Luddite. Of course, in others I'm a visionary - I have some CDS, but I never gave up vinyl.

Bump by request of OP.