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I was just thinking about stuff and things, and I’m also hoping to have some positive interactions with some people I care about with whom the most recent interactions were terse, so here goes:

What is something that you’ve learned about relationships that you found counter-intuitive when you learned it?

For me, two things come to mind, both from Gottman. The first is that complaining is good and vital for a healthy relationship. We don’t want to be whinny and dour, but we do need to voice our concerns with our partner and make productive complaints to them when they hurt or bother us. Complaining has such a negative context that I always assumed it was best to mostly avoid complaining. But that is the path to distance and resentments.

Second, an add on to the first, is that within a relationship there will be unresolvable issues, but even with those unresolvable problems, we should still talk about them. It seemed to me that we should just suck it up and accept our fate, but again that is just a path to emotional repression and resentment. But even if we are certain that our complaint isn’t going to result in change, Gottman says that we should voice that complaint none the less.

So what have you learned about relationships that isn’t just "common sense"?

InkHulk, you always have the deepest questions.

Not sure if it is a piece of counter-intuitive wisdom, or an entire world view in conflict with my professed values. But over the years, I've noticed the wisdom given by so many "experts" about expressing one's negative feelings in a relationship in order to get real, operationalizes exactly the opposite to "...turning the other cheek." Know what I'm saying?

In other words, I often find myself toggling between what I believe I should express that is going wrong in my 'relationship,' and the degree to which I may need to just suck it up and keep on "forgiving" the same old bullshit! It can be just a little annoyance, but the scale doesn't matter, the principle is the same. Air the issue? Or mutter under one's breath for the 1,376th time? Especially since my WH seems more than a bit autistic and at his age, his issues are not likely to improve (but there is always the hope for a miracle breakthrough, eh?)

Best guess is that our answer lies in the degree of our pain. And I believe we're well beyond the 'degree' of normal bullshit here, as survivors of Infidelity.

I’m going to sound cryptic.

"It is what it is"

Learning how to approach that and reconcile yourself to it defines you.

- defeated?
- honest?
- blunt?
- avoidant?
- stable?
- prayerful?

I have found some growth feeling my way through that.

I learned from experience you don't bite your tongue to keep the peace, it's rug sweeping your feelings. After Dday and into R I had to tell my W to stop holding back. I wanted honest communication even if I didn't like it. We had more disagreements but everything was on the table. It doesn't have to be nasty or ugly it just has to be "I didn't like what you did there".

‘Sitting with all my feelings’. Having to sit with being sad, angry etc and just few them. Man that was tough.

I’d always been one to find a positive I. Every situation. I avoided being sad most my life, I rarely experience anger. But man these two feelings have had very big presence in my life this last year and that’s ok and completely normal.

Two things I’ve learned in my happy and healthy marriage that maybe defy conventional wisdom:

1- Go to bed angry. Fighting into the evening never leads to anything constructive; more often then not, one person will relent simply from exhaustion, creating fodder for resentment later on or causing the same situation to erupt at a later time. Go to bed, get a good night’s sleep, and revisit the issue with a clear head in the morning.

2- There’s no such thing as a perfectly equal and balanced relationship where everyone is pulling the same weight all the time. There are times and circumstances (such as during my husband’s cancer and after the passing of his father) when I was putting 100% into the marriage and family… and he was giving 50%. The situation was reversed during my postpartum depression.

This took a lot of time and work on my part for me to accept because my relationship with my ex had been so consistently imbalanced, with me carrying all the emotional and practical burdens of life while he coasted. In the early days of my relationship with my husband, I kept running scorecard in my head…. It’s been such a blessing and relief to finally be able to turn it off.

My parents had scary shouting matches every week. I hated the fights, but they sure taught me that love didn't mean lack of conflict. I just wanted someone with whom I could resolve conflict quietly enough so that our love would stay very visible.

The fights my parents had also taught me that everything I read about relationships was crap. I read a lot. W reads a lot. Before we became parents, we regularly did all-nighters reading, because we didn't come to stopping points at the same time.

Relationships play a giant part of literature. Not much is written by writers who are good at relationships.

For those of us who believe they learn from reading, I was very disappointed to find that reading the stuff I thought would tell me what I wanted to know wouldn't.

I thought that both partners would be struck with the same arrows (from Cupid). I expected my ardor would be returned with similar ardor. That didn't happen. There's no doubt that my W felt a deep connection with me, but for me, love's highest expression was sex. For her it was mutual holding. (We worked it out. We both saw the pleasure in the other's conception. )

Not sure if it is a piece of counter-intuitive wisdom, or an entire world view in conflict with my professed values. But over the years, I've noticed the wisdom given by so many "experts" about expressing one's negative feelings in a relationship in order to get real, operationalizes exactly the opposite to "...turning the other cheek." Know what I'm saying?

I think I know exactly what you mean. I really thought I had some things figured out before my life blew up. I thought I was applying the principles laid out by the maker of the universe, things like "turn the other cheek". But from where I stand now, I was codependent and highly naive. And it's not that I am walking away from my faith, but I'm re-scrutinizing the foundations of how I understood many of these things, how I put them into practice, and I think it's a long journey from here. Like I don't think I could ever again tolerate a marriage gone cold with an avoidant partner. But that also doesn't fall cleanly into categories that I have accepted for legitimate divorce. So I don't know, I've learned so much here and in this saga that I can't ignore, it just rings true to me mind and soul, and I don't have it all tied out with the rest of my belief systems.

"It is what it is"

Learning how to approach that and reconcile yourself to it defines you.

I wish you would elaborate on this more, but since you were going for cryptic, I'm guessing you've said all you are going to say.

I think I understand at least some of what you mean. There are so many ways a person can react to the realization that we are not in control of so many things that impact us deeply. For me, it makes me think of the Serenity Prayer, which I guess is on your list.

"I didn't like what you did there"

I've had two people say this to me in the last couple months, and I've appreciated it SO MUCH. It's given me the chance to recalibrate with them and respect their preferences. But even more than that, it's given me a comfort level in interacting with them that I can trust that I will know if I am upsetting them. That in itself felt so different than dynamics with my wife. It is so simple, but so freeing.

‘Sitting with all my feelings’. Having to sit with being sad, angry etc and just few them. Man that was tough.

I’d always been one to find a positive I. Every situation. I avoided being sad most my life, I rarely experience anger. But man these two feelings have had very big presence in my life this last year and that’s ok and completely normal.

This is a fantastic one, thanks for sharing. I fully agree, I never had an appreciation before all this of how utterly critical it is to be authentic with your natural emotions. I can see now looking back that not doing that has wrecked my mental health in the past, and I truly believe that the decision I made to just feel whatever I felt has been instrumental to healing.

And to being a person who always finds a positive: can you trace where that came from? Is that coming from a parent always expecting good moods or something like that?

Thanks for sharing all you have these last months, you are a wonderful addition to the community.

Go to bed angry. Fighting into the evening never leads to anything constructive; more often then not, one person will relent simply from exhaustion, creating fodder for resentment later on or causing the same situation to erupt at a later time. Go to bed, get a good night’s sleep, and revisit the issue with a clear head in the morning.

I think I agree with you like 99%. Definitely way more than the last thread

My wife would always say this, that the adage of "never go to bed angry" was flawed. And maybe it is, but if you are going to do that, that last bit of coming back and intentionally re-engaging on the issue is critical. She would conveniently leave that part out.

Relationships play a giant part of literature. Not much is written by writers who are good at relationships.

OK, that line just blew my mind. It must be true, but that thought has never crossed my mind before.

Hmmmm … would these classify as counterintuitive:

1. Don’t rely on your husband/wife/partner to be your "everything." Meaning - it is impossible for your significant other to fullfill all of your relational needs. It’s so important to sustain meaningful relationships with your family and friends. Connection with others is so important! I see so so many people rely solely on their "better half" and I always wonder what would happen to them if their world was suddenly "turned upside down."

2. Be selfish. Meaning - your partners needs are more important than your wants … your needs are more important than your partners wants. It all boils down to communication here … don’t be afraid to communicate your needs to get them met and to listen when your partner communicates their needs.

That second part resonates with me. I have had to really work hard to hold what she says at arms length and not accept it as my truth. I still get caught up wanting to make sure she gets it or understands and agrees. She was great at voicing her complaints…me not so much. But I was taking them as truth. I was less attached to my own complaints and would internally decide that they didn’t matter all that much in the grand scheme of things. It goes against what I believed was the path to successfully marriage. I still struggle with the feeling or compulsion that I need to fix whatever it is when she complains ….

There is an excellent Ted-Talk by the mathematician Hannah Fry called "The mathematics of love". It’s only about 20 minutes, full of humor and well worth listening to. She uses math and stats to evaluate all sorts of things – including what relationships are likely to last.
Turns out that the best and most successful couples are those with a low negativity threshold. That is – couples that don’t let issues go and don’t let trivial things become a big thing, but rather confront and complete whatever issues arise. Couples that many would call "argumentative"...

I've always read 'turn the other cheek' as 'don't exact revenge.' That never meant to me that I had to stick around the person who hit me. Except my brother. I wasn't allowed to kill him. I'm grateful for that now....

The most unintuitive advice I've actually received is: Ask for what you want.

We grow up with a myth that one's partner automatically knows what one wants. It's just not true. We can't read each other's minds. We CAN read non-verbal comms, and sometimes it effective to ask non-verbally, but asking is a whole lot better than hoping one's partner will give what one wants without being asked.

I don't quite want to say "emotional maturity is a myth" but almost every book about parenting difficult children is good for managing conflict with direct reports or in your romantic relationship. Most recently I was introduced to the "mistaken goals chart" and it is an incredible tool.

Probably for me:

-People are responsible for their own happiness. You can enhance someone’s life and joy can be found within a relationship, but happiness is your responsibility. This not only changes my actions, but when H has gone through different struggles I can separate that from how he feels about me. Whereas before I thought I wasn’t doing enough. I held myself more responsible than needed over his feelings and expected the same in return. It’s not healthy.

-We can only control ourselves so marriage requires some level of acceptance over who the other person is. I still believe focusing on gratitude and appreciation of the things you do like rather than focusing on the things you don’t, unless it’s something that disrupts your boundaries. Love is acceptance, but acceptance should not include mistreatment or brushing one’s needs under the rug.

I actually find this as an example of several possibilities towards your answer:

I’m also hoping to have some positive interactions with some people I care about with whom the most recent interactions were terse,

I have become okay with terse. People need to feel comfortable in protecting their own needs, their own boundaries, and they agree to participate to the degree in which they are comfortable. Having boundaries or stating of needs can be uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable is not always a statement about the other person and how the message might be perceived, but a fear of rejection or abandonment in those moments.

But even if we are certain that our complaint isn’t going to result in change, Gottman says that we should voice that complaint none the less.

I agree with that to a certain extent.

First, I don’t think of it in terms of complaints. I think of it as something that ranges as gentle as a preference to something as deep as a non-negotiable need. And the consequence could vary in severity.

I might state preference like "please stop leaving your underwear in the floor" (which is one that I have asked our entire marriage without any compliance- but I am using this as an example because it’s simple). So the consequence is, I no longer pick them up. If we have company, I am not the one who needs to be embarrassed when someone sees them. If they collect there, they aren’t washed because I only wash what is in the basket because I am not going to guess which items you have plan to wear again.

Before, I took this as he doesn’t care about me. I spent a lot of time keeping our home orderly and I saw it as disrespect. Like he was treating me like a maid.

However, what I have learned is my framing around this narrative was skewed. It doesn’t mean anything about how he feels about or respects me, this is just a difference in opinion about what is important. I don’t have to pick up after him anymore if I don’t want to, but I do have to deal with my acceptance on his non-compliance. So, instead of "allowing him to treat me like a maid" I no longer view it s my responsibility, I had the power not to be the maid all along, I didn’t need him to give that to me.

However, things are often not that simple and more emotionally loaded. My husband is experiencing some side effects of a medication that is causing him to not have the sex drive he used to. And after 25+ years of him being the higher need partner, the tables have turned. We are working through that but I have to remind him that physical intimacy is not just sex. I still want him to come up behind me in the kitchen and love on me. I need more affection. Affection to him usually meant a vehicle you use to get to sex. I have to communicate various ways of us balancing this so that we still feel connected.

But I also have to decide how do you deal with an unmet need like that without making the problem worse? You have to balance it with the goal. My goal is to feel closer, so my solution needs to address that goal.

In that context, is it helpful telling myself a narrative that at the height of his affair he was having sex probably 8-9 times a week because he had an active sex life with both of us?

Is it to tell him that I need more sex and if he can’t comply then we need to separate? Is it making him feel bad over something he can’t fully control?

The answer in marriage is you have to decide not to tell yourself unhelpful narratives that create suffering. He is having a medical issue, adding things to it is where I can get myself in trouble.

Instead, I am being consistent in initiating some of the affection I need, and when I do feel rejected, I share that with him too. But sharing your needs doesn’t mean the other person can always comply with them. I have to trust he is doing his best, that he too feels some frustration on the loss we re experiencing.

Does it hurt? Yes sometimes it does but I can control my suffering by not making this about me, my desirability, or his affair.

So I guess that was my usual long winded way of saying "yes I can have complaints. I am in control of how I respond and negotiate them, and I still have to be part of the solution in some cases" why? Because I can only control myself and my own experience (and suffering) as we navigate what I hope is a temporary issue. And I do have some acceptance we are aging. My husband is 10 years older than me. Our relationship is going to experience changes that aren’t a statement of how we feel bout one another.

Oh, and one thing that has come from the situation- he now knows things from my side and I now know things from him. Had we had this experience earlier in our marriage it would have formed better communication and understanding around it than we had.

But, I think that is the goal of communication, we should not have to experience everything our partner does to begin to understand it - instead we both have to work at navigating it- and that means creating the goal of both people walking away feeling understood. And I only add suffering to the situation after I have challenged that default. Because thoughts and feelings are not always based in truth, and they can be the root of needless suffering.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:41 PM, Monday, September 9th]

The healthiest relationships are those where each partner is allowed to be an authentic individual. He does not complete me and vice versa. We are not "one". We're members of a team, a partnership, and sometimes we present as a united front and sometimes we disagree and present to others as individuals.

On that same sort of note, it's not terribly bonding to do things together when one partner is uninterested. We do what we like, and we excuse each other from activities unless we ask to be supported. I used to go with him to car shows and swap meets and be miserable standing around on the hot tarmac while he dug through boring car parts. He used to come with me to see distant family and be bored out of his skull while we retold old stories. No one wants to either be or have an unhappy tagalong ruining the vibe so we don't do that anymore. Often, he'll go hang out at the legion and I'll stay home.

But even if we are certain that our complaint isn’t going to result in change, Gottman says that we should voice that complaint none the less.

I see what you're doing there. lol When the topic of physical affection comes up, I tell my H that his smoker's breath and smoker's BO is preventing him from getting what he wants from me. I'm not requiring anything from him - I've learned my lesson about trying to drag that horse to water - but I tell him how it affects me, and how it thus affects him. He's started - again - a course of Wellbutrin to try to quit. We'll see how it goes. But that was completely his doing. There was no coercion from me.