SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Just here to drop one of my relevant posts on decision making:

Here, I have shared a simplified decision tree with some representative numbers to demonstrate the method. In the example, you've got a base value if the affair never occurred of $2 million. So the affair costs 2/3 of a million average on R, or 1.1 in D.

(sorry if link is broken)

Basically I figured staying had a better chance of returning a positive utility (assigned in the example in dollars) value than leaving.

The values and probabilities would have to reflect the best belief based on my wife's current actions, of course. At one point I did choose D, but my wife made adjustments, and I went back with R.

The why to me staying when the numbers didn't support it had to do with me being risk prone (staying when the chances of false R were too high) and accepting that I had a materially comfortable life for the time being.

The *why* to changing those numbers had to do with my wife getting her head out of her ass after I asked her for a divorce.

One thing you can see by looking at the numbers is that if I didn't have kids, I wouldn't have stayed. If I didn't still love her and felt she loved me, I wouldn't have stayed.

I doubt many BS's bother with this sort of explicit exercise, but I'm what can be called a "risk professional" and would be remiss to not use at least a simple risk model when making decisions under uncertainty. If you followed my story, you can see that it didn't stop me from waffling like most BSs in R.

While exercises like this in personal decision making are often just assigning numerical values to our existing desires/preferences, it does prevent cycling forever on a vague "pros and cons" list. I think the pros and cons list is something that all BS's (and WS's for that matter) should go through. Project life 5 years from now, R or D, and try to think about which you would prefer on that basis, even if it's notional rather than backed with consistent quantification.

The biggest issue is you have a man who spent 5 years in prison has been brought into your life. In the exchange you posted he was testing control over your WW.

He has 5 kids in three states, he does not your wife. He only wants sex and money. You may not be rid of him.

This is risking a thread jack, I really don’t want to do that, but I’m going to hazard one last response on this topic until (and if) OP engages in it. But he raised the point first and I personally believe it’s in the spirit of supporting him.

While I'm sure there must be some with this story out there, I don't recall any. I suspect this is a small set.

There have been many a conversation around here about how reading SI cannot be used as an estimate for statistics and probabilities of outcomes. It just doesn’t work that way, we are not randomized or an unbiased cross section of society, or even people who have been cheated on. SI is a fantastic place for hearing stories and learning anecdotal lessons, and for creating categories as OP did so well. But to start to put the numbers into This0Is0Fine’s model, it would be foolhardy to take the approach of counting threads with known outcomes and assuming that had any bearing on the outcome of any individual story, like OP’s.

Regarding not hearing from men with regrets over D, I agree we don’t hear those stories on this board. I personally don’t believe that means they don’t exist. I believe those men would be very unlikely to find us, after all they wouldn’t think they have a problem of surviving infidelity, they now have a loneliness problem. Plus if they lurked to see if they had a place here, they would not hear anything that echos their pain. So I don’t believe that the fact that we don’t hear those stories on this forum is clear evidence that they don’t exist.

OP, I am NOT trying to scare you into staying in your marriage. I am only listening to your thought process that you shared and trying to point out a spot that I think has a gap worth considering. I wish you the best.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 12:55 PM, Friday, March 8th]

Nice post Inkhulk. Just think of all the people who have come here over the years to SI/JFO, post once or twice and then leave abruptly, never to post again. It's a pretty large number but it pales in comparison to all the people who experience infidelity and never come here at all.

SI is great for strategies to get out of infidelity, getting some empathy and understanding more about infidelity in general. But I don't think it really tells us what percentage of people do what and what the outcomes are. That being said, I think the categories Justcrushed came up with are on target and I liked the addition that some BS who D have some lingering regret, even if it may be a smaller group.

Hey JC,

I am one of those men who chose D. While I appreciate the decision making flow chart, it track one area, wealth and cost. Each of us is much more than that. I lost a significant amount of money choosing to D, but what I gained was peace. While I was attempting to R after Dday2, I was caught in a hellish loop. I would barely make it through a day and go to bed, sleep, and then wake in the morning. For a plot second, everything would be okay, and then I would remember, only to have my heart break again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Each of us is different, a d there is no one size fits all approach to getting through this. The value of this place is the varied point of view. When I left, I removed myself from the source of my pain, and flowly begun the process of healing, something I vould not do if my WW was beside me.

I am one of those men who sticks around and would qualify as lonely. But I am lonely only occasionally. What I am is alone, which is different.

I was terrified of being alone after Dday, but my best friend said something that stuck me. He told me I had been alone for many years. Had I stayed M, I would have lived the next chapter of my life continuing to be lonely, only with the source of my trauma beside me. Granted, my EXWW is not a quality human being. She has few, if any, redeeming qualities, but if she was a decent, loving person, R might have worked.

Anyway, that's my perspective. Im alone and mostly content. Sometimes i get sad or lonely and i sit in the emotion until it passes.

I think what InkHulk said is spot on. SI is not the real world, you don’t necessary get the variety of real life outcomes and most people just drift away from here as they heal or move on.

What is paramount is to make a choice that is not dictated by fear (either to stay or go), but one also needs to be realistic. At least in my personal experience, life after S/D is… just life. For sure there will be new joys, experiences, a new sense of self but there’s also loss and maybe new heartbreaks and disappointments too. Selling the image that your best life is just around the corner sounds to me like selling that fake idea that the moment you get married is when you find your forever happiness. That’s why I don’t get the pressure on OP to file ASAP considering that so far his W seems compliant to whatever he is asking.

The healthiest way to make a decision is to let it grow organically within you and that might take time (a week, a few months, a year, whatever). IMO that allows you to face whatever life is in front of you with the minimum level of regret. And then it is also OK to change your mind one way or the other.

JC, you seem to have a good head over your shoulder so I trust you’ll get there when you are ready to. However I would be wary to make a decision based on models and outcomes when emotions and feelings are involved. I don’t think they work in these situations but I appreciate what wouldn’t work for me might work for others.

Finally, there a cases where the guys want R so bad that they literally turn themselves inside out trying to accept what their WW’s have done. They take each crumb their WW gives them and hold it up as evidence of that she gets it, only see later that she hasn’t. The process repeats itself – sometimes for years. This is a horrible way to live and I’m really fearful that I could fall into this trap of falling into endless limbo.

Of all the category you listed, I wonder why you think you would fall in this particular one? Looks to me like you had an uncommonly clear cut, decisive reaction and to be honest this is the least likely outcome I would envision for you.

[This message edited by Lalala12 at 3:26 PM, Friday, March 8th]

Stop "looking" at her while you make decisions. Flow charts, pros and cons, help but there are basic questions we all need in our lives, and not just around marriage, but jobs, friendships and on… So, how happy(content) have you been in your life. How happy are you going to be in the future? Can you BE happy in the future if you continue/don’t continue in your marriage. How much do you trust your wife right now? How much will you trust her in the future?

The fact that she chose this type of person for a lover has some deep issues no one here can understand or give advice about. You are married to her and don’t understand it.

I am going out on a limb here and suggest that he MIGHT be a sociopath. They are glib, charming, seductive and very risk prone. They also do not have any conscience. If he is, you and your family might be at risk. If he is, do not antagonize him. If your wife cannot/will not let go of him, even if it is just emotionally, you need to fade into the woodwork and quietly work on getting your finances in such a way she cannot access it in any way. Make sure she knows that. Just in case something "should happen to you".

The OP did say in his initial post that it was sex only with no signs of it being romantic. That, plus the PI report will probably set a speed record for a WW coming out of the "Fog." There's likely almost no chance of her still clinging to this trash.
The broader issue is what has been suggested here before. This probably ain't her first rodeo. Had he not happened to look at the phone when the text came through, he would still be none the wiser. That she still felt comfortable with him having free access to her phone while this was ongoing probably means she's developed means to keep illicit communication hidden, which failed spectacularly this time.
I think it's possible she may also have psychological issues--maybe not full sociopathy but somewhere on the spectrum that indicates reduced empathy and prone to risky behavior. She was certainly able to turn on the waterworks at the opportune time to keep him from trying to have his own biological children.
All that being said, he has really demonstrated that he's reliable under extreme pressure.

I know she say it was not romantic but there is something that caused her to pick HIM. What possible asset could he have that allowed her to do this? I am with above that this might not be the first time.
There are so many stories online about women in stable marriages who pick men like this. Sometimes it ends badly. I was probably a little over the top about it but on the surface her behavior makes no sense. I realize cheating doesn’t but this was a bit sideways. She picked HIM for her lover.

1994,

Given how careless she was with the phone and not using secure messaging apps, it's more probable that this was her first real A. Doesn’t rule out "crimes" of opportunity like ONS.

I know she say it was not romantic but there is something that caused her to pick HIM. What possible asset could he have that allowed her to do this? I am with above that this might not be the first time.

There are so many stories online about women in stable marriages who pick men like this. Sometimes it ends badly. I was probably a little over the top about it but on the surface her behavior makes no sense. I realize cheating doesn’t but this was a bit sideways. She picked HIM for her lover.

I was one of the "ain’t her first rodeo" commenters on the thread. Like I said, I speak from experience. The fact she picked someone like him, leads me to believe she is many years into the cheating lifestyle. Women don’t run background checks on guys they meet in bars and immediately start sleeping with. If she is just meeting him for sex, they likely aren’t having in-depth conversations either. Even if they were, is this guy likely to bring up all his kids, his prison record and his legal/financial issues. No! They’re fuck buddies not life partners.

My wife started a new job in a restaurant that was still under construction. She flirted with one of the construction guys and went to his place and screwed him the next day. What did she know about him? He was good looking and had a nice body? She wasn’t thinking about his life story or that she could have been gang raped or killed. Now, this was a ONS. Did she learn her lesson? No!

Later she met a tow truck driver. He was married with a pregnant wife, not a criminal but still reasons to avoid. She ended up in a 2 year LTA that was nothing but meeting in a commuter lot for sex in 30 minute increments. Why? He was good looking and had a nice body. Unfortunately, sometimes that’s the ONLY criteria they check out…..

And if the woman is the pursuer, they don’t even have to be smooth talkers. Just willing.

[This message edited by ImaChump at 2:39 AM, Wednesday, June 12th]

If there is additional information that she has cheated before this my responses and I suspect others responses would change dramatically. I think it is crucial that you get this info out of her by threat of polygraph or other means. Of course if you know you are D then don’t waste money or time.

Of all the category you listed, I wonder why you think you would fall in this particular one? Looks to me like you had an uncommonly clear cut, decisive reaction and to be honest this is the least likely outcome I would envision for you.

OP seems pretty rational and self aware. Perhaps he sees himself as susceptible to being worn down and eventually caving. If he list all his conditions and she does everything and he loves her perhaps he believes he will feel compelled, at that point despite the eternal inner conflict which many of us will never resolve, to stay. I totally get this. This sounds like a horrible nightmare to me as well.

The one thing I truly admire about JustCrushed is his self-awareness. He is really tuned in to who he is at his core.

He recognized very early on in his life when he was in the system that he did not want to end up like others did in the system, so he did something about it. He worked very hard to improve himself and he has done well.

Also, early on in this thread he said the following:

Yes, I’ve always put them first, but overall, I’ve gotten great joy from this. The other thing I’ve had to look at is love. I know this stems from childhood, but at a deep level I always thought love had to be earned. I’ve been working on this for a couple of years now, but it’s pretty well ingrained in ne. The thought that someone could actually love me for no reason is still foreign to me. This whole dynamic may be what looks like me being passive.

The emphasis is mine.

He is very aware of his own personality and whatever shortcomings he perceives he has about himself. I am convinced that whichever decision JustCrushed makes for his future will be the right one for him.

JC... again I wish you the very best.

The third group is men that say they have successfully R’ed. It seems to have taken years and herculean efforts from both spouses. Even then, there always seems to be dull pain somewhere in the background that surfaces from time to time . The concerning thing here is in comparison to other outcomes, this number is really small.

Some thoughts on this:

First, recovery + reconciliation may take more time than recovery alone, but I found the work paid off within 2 years, which is not a long time. It took me 3.5-4 years to accept that we were, in fact, succeeding, but I don't like to declare victory over a process that will keep going on as long as we live. There's always the possibility that some issue can arise that will cause us to D. If that happens, I'll be extremely sad, but I'll be ready. I think.

Also, once I got into the work, the payoff came fairly quickly and was always worth the effort. And the result of doing the work is that I'm in a partnership that serves us both well. Had we D'ed I may or may not have found a good partner, though the demographics were in my favor. The point is: recovery + reconciliation is more work than recovery alone, so it makes sense that it takes more time.

Also, R morphs into M. R is not a project with an end date. Relationships need pretty constant nurturing. There's no way to change that.

Second, as others say, if you judge probabilities by what you read on SI, or on the web in general, you're doing yourself a disservice. The Census Bureau can do studies of random samples and come up with good estimates of society-wide numbers. There are no such studies of infidelity.

Besides, statistics do not apply to specific cases. But you know that, I imagine, from what you say you plan to do.

I had trouble sleeping last night, so I got up really early and went into the office. I had planned to clean up a few loose ends and then get an early start up to the mountains. As I sat there, this wave of sadness just overwhelmed me. I‘m not sure I can even articulate this. Many of you have said I’m doing a great job handling all this, but I’m really not. I’m just mechanically executing. I realized siting here that I’m doing just what I did as a kid. When I was beaten unmercifully or worse, abused emotionally, I went to a space in my mind where no one could find or hurt me. I went months without feeling anything. Now, here I am doing the same fucking thing. I somehow need to get a grip on this and let myself feel the pain. I know it’s the only way through this. I’m going to unplug when get up there and maybe having an entire week with just myself might help.

Just a quick comment on the group outcomes I outlined yesterday. I noted these as more of a general observation on how I thought being aware of the possibilities could be useful in my decision-making process. It was never my intention to spark a debate about the usefulness, validity or accuracy of any this. Of course it’s not scientific, and using only SI data, never could be. I’ll touch base with you all when I get back. Thanks again for your continued support.

Infidelity is a form of extreme abuse. It makes total sense that you are reacting as if you've been abused,again. Because you have.

I had trouble sleeping last night, so I got up really early and went into the office. I had planned to clean up a few loose ends and then get an early start up to the mountains. As I sat there, this wave of sadness just overwhelmed me. I‘m not sure I can even articulate this. Many of you have said I’m doing a great job handling all this, but I’m really not. I’m just mechanically executing.

In the first few days after my D-day, there was a delay before it all really hit. I remember wondering if I was going to be spared all the pain I’d read about here. Skip to the end, I wasn’t. And you don’t have to articulate it, we all know.

I realized siting here that I’m doing just what I did as a kid. When I was beaten unmercifully or worse, abused emotionally, I went to a space in my mind where no one could find or hurt me. I went months without feeling anything. Now, here I am doing the same fucking thing.

I’m so sorry you experienced that. I learned to disassociate from my feelings as a kid in response to my parent’s relationship crumbling and my mother leaning on me for emotional support. It’s so fucking unfair to have infidelity rip those wounds open. I’m so sorry.

I somehow need to get a grip on this and let myself feel the pain. I know it’s the only way through this. I’m going to unplug when get up there and maybe having an entire week with just myself might help.

There is no "getting a grip on it" for where you are at, that’s like hoping to control a tidal wave. You are going to need to feel some of it, though our mind and bodies mercifully seem programmed to only meter out so much at a time. It prolongs it, but at least it doesn’t destroy us.

Just a quick comment on the group outcomes I outlined yesterday. I noted these as more of a general observation on how I thought being aware of the possibilities could be useful in my decision-making process. It was never my intention to spark a debate about the usefulness, validity or accuracy of any this. Of course it’s not scientific, and using only SI data, never could be. I’ll touch base with you all when I get back. Thanks again for your continued support.

Sorry if that was a distraction. You and your recovery are all that really matters right now.

Only show her family the messages if your wife refuses to admit/inform her family of the affair which forces you to do so... and then only show the messages if a member of the family refuses to believe you and/or requires some sort of proof especially if the wife refuses to come clean to the family member.

Of course, if your wife refuses to disclose to family, you have a pretty good idea that while she may have some regret she is no where near being fully remorseful and willing to do -everything- to save the marriage.

JustCrushed, try your best to chill and relax during your time away from your wife. Go completely NC with her unless there's a true family emergency... we're talking someone rushed to the hospital or house caught fire, the wife feeling down and just wants to hear your voice is not an emergency... express this thought to your wife before you leave. I probably wouldn't even tell her where you are going in case she tries to follow you, turn off your location on your phone so she can't track you.

Then just relax as best as you can next week... you've done your research here and probably other sites as well. You've categorized the BH's situations pretty well, what works best for you? Do a lot of mindless activities, work out if you can, go for walks, play mindless video games, etc. Of course, you're going to be doing a lot of thinking and only you can decide what you can live with in your life.

Regret is one of the worst things in life to deal with. Most people have more trouble dealing with the regret for the things they did NOT do and the chances they DID NOT take, far, far more than the regret for the choices they made. If you choose to divorce your wife that does not mean that future reconciliation is totally off the table with your wife, check out VintageRetro's story- which is still ongoing.

______
Slight T/J, if I recall JustCrushed your WW is your one and only relationship/sexual partner correct? These cases are truly the worst of the worst, IMO. True "innocence" lost... well may not "innocence" but I can't think of another way to term it. Someone who waited, either intentionally or not, to give themselves to someone who he or she considered a life partner, (especially a life partner who already had more sexual experiences than the betrayed) to have that trust abused just adds another layer of shite to an already incredibly bad situation. Maybe it's too old-fashioned or even patriarchal thinking on my part, but when the "one and only's" get betrayed, I really hope the betrayed goes scorched earth on the wayward.

When people are commenting on how well you’re doing, they are mostly talking about your ability to see the situation for how it is. You’re able to get things done. You engaged a PI to find out the information you lacked. You confronted with that information. You made a short term plan for yourself, which you are presently on your trip for.

You didn’t freeze up, you didn’t post making excuses for your WW. You didn’t play pick me and beg her. You didn’t bargain.

Those are the things we’re commenting on.

Emotional control? That’s not going to happen 24/7.
Nobody short of someone with at least some sociopathic tendencies would be able to control themselves all the time going through this.
Hell, I’m a pretty tough dude, both in my head and physically. Been through so much crap from the time I was a toddler. Handled most everything pretty well. When this shit happened to me? Yeah I was able to make decisions, I was able to get things done. But There was still a time where I was just minutes away from just ending it all.

Glad I didn’t! With 20 years of hindsight I will confidently say I’m a better person and have a better life now because of it.

You will be too no matter what you ultimately decide.