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I am not sure I am in the right place for this question I think that I want to hear from people that have reconciled or are attempting at it.

I feel like I have so many right now so sorry in advance!

I think in my heart eventually I will want to reconcile if my H keeps up his counseling and continues to grow as a safe person and changes his morals and values (he is working on it). Right now I am trying to focus on myself and start therapy in a few days but I find myself still stuck in the question phase (its been 4months since D day so I know it is early) At first my H defended his A and his AP to and extent, the normal BS you hear : She knew me better, she and I connected more He has over time started to see what it was and he hates what he did to us and our family.

Now I find myself almost pain shopping, I ask questions about their sexual stuff even though he has already admitted that he enjoyed sex with her then but absolutely hates it now and he realizes how gross and blah blah it was and how she wasn't this beautiful girl he thought she was. He said he saw himself how he wanted to through her eyes, which I hear is pretty common. Last night I kept asking what she had that I didn't have or what she did that I did not do and he started to get really upset and cry that I was "breaking him down" that he had nothing else to tell me and I was searching for things to internationally hurt me. He told me nothing was better with her but he admitted she wasn't awful in bed but she wasn't amazing and that he may have enjoyed it then but doesn't now, that the only reason he did then is because he knew she was below him and he felt better and it raised his self esteem. He told me he thinks that I keep asking questions to try to get him to change his answers into something I want to hear that will hurt me so I can put the nail in the coffin and leave him. I think he may be right? Why do I keep wanting to get him to tell me she was amazing and rocked his world, I mean she tried reallllllllllll hard to steal him so maybe she did but even if she did WHY WOULD I WANT TO KNOW? He said that every time I ask sexual questions he has to think about it by recalling the memories he is trying to forget and it makes him sick and he doesn't want them anymore. He said all the memories are tied to pain.

I know that there is no comparison in MY brain, I know what i have to offer and what she did, I don't feel below her in any way BUT I worry about his thoughts, what he may think now, how can I compete with a fantasy? I let my guard down and was a flawed mom during his A and she gave it her all, he only saw her on her good days at her best.

I put myself on a pedestal, I really thought our sex life was amazing and that no one could come close to making him happy sexually but me, that was a stupid thought clearly. He told me I need to stop worrying about what he thinks about because it isn't about her and if it is, they aren't good memories but once again, I will never know.

I guess my questions are.

1. I hate when he cries when I ask him questions, he says it is because saying anything that hurts me makes him feel like crap and he has hurt me enough, but I still find that to be shame? Or is it normal and considered empathy? He answers my questions over and over but eventually he breaks maybe it is stress , idk. I usually am relentless because I am stubborn (working on that)

2. as a BS did you pain shop like this or as a WS did your BS pain shop? Why do I keep trying to hurt myself more, I don't think this is normal that I can not let it go, if I will ever reconcile I feel like i eventually have to stop hurting myself.

3. Does this feeling of feeling less than the AP ever go away after reconciliation or will I always feel a twinge of it?

I did end up blocking her on Social media because I got tired of staring at her and wondering what he saw in her and I have deleted all of the texts and messages H and I had during the time of the A because I kept re reading his lies and I cried when I deleted them, it was a bittersweet moment and I don't know why. I should have been happy but I was sad I couldn't keep reading them over and over even though it hurt. I still have a photo on my phone (locked away) of them two together although I don't look at it anymore, I can't delete it. I feel so stupid for that.

Sorry for the long explanation, sometimes I ramble.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 2:15 PM, Tuesday, February 13th]

He said that every time I ask sexual questions he has to think about it by recalling the memories he is trying to forget and it makes him sick and he doesn't want them anymore. He said all the memories are tied to pain.

Ah, those pesky consequences everyone keeps talking about. He is still making it all about him. Until he makes it about you, he will never be able to empathize with you and the trauma you are suffering.

Look at how he says things and listen to the words. Words matter. How we phrase things matter as they can reveal our sense of self. If he is manipulating the conversation to getvto "Yeah, but what about me", then hexis not readyvto begin the work of R.

My thankfully EXWW would flip the conversation in about 60 seconds, from the trauma I was suffering to how my suffering made her feel uncomfortable, which by the way, was the real tragedy. And since I am a fixercand decent human, my natural response was to back off. Once I detoxed and recognized the glaringly evident pattern, I saw her for who she was. Then I pulled the plug.

Now I find myself almost pain shopping

Know that all your questions you are asking about her and him and what they did and didn’t do are really questions about yourself. Literally, your Self. Who You Are.

Just some guy , I appreciate that. I have told him that as time goes on he is getting "better" at TRYING to empathize with me but I see more tears when he HAS TO ADMIT what he did vs when I am upset. He holds it together for a while and answers me then just shame spirals I feel. I am hoping IC will get him to stop seeing this about himself since he is the one that freaking did it.

Houseofplane, what do you mean? I am interested to hear you elaborate if you don't mind.

I could have written your post. Seriously. I grilled the HELL out of my H for months on end because I wanted to know EVERYTHING.

I'm super proud of you for deleting the texts. It took me over a decade to do that. I saved everything in a private Google blog.

EV ER Y THING. PMs with friends here, accounts of what he said, copies of the NC emails, copies of every time she broke NC. I think I really screwed myself by doing that, and by pain shopping for years afterwards. I finally deleted them a few years back as a gift to myself and my H, but I often miss being able to pain shop. My advice would be to go ahead and delete that photo, too, as soon as you are able to muster up the courage to do so. Stop digging up bones as soon as you're able, and reward yourself for it.

1. It's probably both shame and empathy. I think it must be really tough to be a remorseful WS who hurt the person who trusted you the most. I mean, imagine how shitty he must feel. That said, don't let it stop you from asking questions. Curb yourself from pain shopping when you already know the answer and you've asked it several times. Also, I would caution you not to get too in depth about sex. Every answer builds a new trigger.

2. See above.

3. My H said the same thing: the only reason he did then is because he knew she was below him and he felt better and it raised his self esteem. I've never felt like she's better than me. I know I'm a better person, much better looking, and smarter, but it bothers me that she's walking around out there thinking that he loved her. I think HouseOfPlane is dead on in saying that they're really questions about ourselves.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 3:26 PM, Tuesday, February 13th]

Hi Groot,

This is all very normal.

Trauma changes your brain. There is a lot of science on it. It’s normal to ask the same questions over and over and you will find that your fixations will shift and you might return to old ones.

It’s also normal that your husband feels swallowed in shame it takes a while for that to run its course as well. He needs to understand that the shame isn’t serving either of you, but it’s not a light-switch any more than you needing answers. the humiliation is deep.

That’s not to say he isn’t sorry or remorseful, but shame is about how we feel about what we did. And for some period of time it’s helpful to propel us towards change.

But as the perpetrator, he has to stop navel gazing and recognize whatever pain he might feel is a drop in the bucket to the trauma he has inflicted upon you. He is also terrified of losing his marriage and you, he was cake eating and these are the consequences.

I know the sexual anxiety you feel. My husband had a highly sexual affair for 18 months in our home with our employee. Like you, I knew she didn’t really have anything over me logically, that still doesn’t take away the wound. We literally had to sell our house before I could even start to breathe again.

But as a ws, I know that the fantasy is not really better than reality. And that his decision to cheat was about him and his pain, his inability to cope, and his need to have his ego validated. It seems too surface, too junk food, too stupid to do these destructive things without there being a real draw to the AP, but time and time again the AP in the light of day is a loser. Someone the ws would never really entertain if they were single and had their pick. The ap is usually convenient and willing and that’s what they have going for them.

Most affairs come from a desire to meet a different version of oneself. To prop yourself up by pretending to be someone else. The ap is the audience and if you can convince the audience it makes it seem more real.

You have to ask the questions you need to ask in order to heal. But you also have to balance it with knowing there will be things you will never be able to wash out of your brain. So I would not say curtail the questions for him but maybe see if you can pause and work through with your therapist what you really need to get at in know. In other words, I would look at protecting yourself versus having enough information. Some people need every detail, after all you have to know what you are being asked to forgive. But at some point you also know what people do sexually, and maybe slowing down to quantify what details are important. Like did he do things for her that he wouldn’t for you, there would be reasons you might want to know that.

This is all so normal. Give yourself some grace. And your husband needs to answer as many times as you need. All these things were done without your knowledge in secret, of course you need to catch up on it. It’s almost like you need to know every second that was kept for you. The discovery phase will subside in time.

Thank you for your answers and for letting me show my stubborn side that I hate most days.

Sacredsoul I could have kept the messages longer and I cried when I hit delete :( I feel like I couldn’t play detective anymore? Not sure that’s the best way to put it. As for the photo of them I will let that go too. I’m not proud to say I’ve sent it to him a few times so he could feel the pain too and let me tell you he got big mad. I’ve done many things I’m not proud of during this process. It’s like the worst side of me took over.

All the stuff I read about affairs and the highs you can get make me feel like I just can’t compete and he’s holding memories in his spank bank (although I know this is not logical). I see his pain, I see the changes, he quit his job and is in counseling, I just won’t stop because my ego is hurt. I want him to tell me he hated every moment when he was in the affair and he can’t. I almost want him to lie to me but then I would be even more mad, it’s like I can’t handle the rejection.

I know he hates it now , I mean hell four child support payments, only seeing his kids every weekend and losing me over I know would kill him.

I just want to feel special again, I keep trying to pry to find something we have together that he didn’t have with her. Maybe I should reframe my questions more towards us ? Idk.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 4:24 PM, Tuesday, February 13th]

how can I compete with a fantasy?

You don’t. She may have set up a competition you didn’t even know existed but YOU don’t need to enter that competition. It wasn’t ever anyway a choice between two women, but between two men, the cheating incomplete one who needed an ego boost and sneaked around, or the whole hearted honest one who likes and respects himself to not sneak around outside his marriage and seek a fantasy version of himself mirrored back at him by a lying cheating AP. He’s the one who should be auditioning for the part of husband, he’s the one who failed in that role and responsibility.

I just want to feel special again

I remember briefly craving that too. And immediately realising that I was looking for that kind of affirmation in the wrong place. It has to come from within. It’s probably as a result of feeling somehow discarded, as surplus to requirement and shame on him for his part in you feeling that way. But rebuilding yourself, your self value, liking what you see in the mirror, is your work now. None of that is, or can be, dependent on him.

[This message edited by Edie at 5:36 PM, Tuesday, February 13th]

Pain is not pain-shopping. I'd wager a LOT that now and for months to come you'll be processing pain - anger, grief, fear, and shame - out of your body, and so will your WS. I guess in a sense you're looking for pain you're looking for the pain stored in your body, so you can locate, acknowledge, and release it. IMO, everything is right about that.

1. I hate when he cries when I ask him questions, he says it is because saying anything that hurts me makes him feel like crap and he has hurt me enough, but I still find that to be shame? Or is it normal and considered empathy? He answers my questions over and over but eventually he breaks maybe it is stress , idk. I usually am relentless because I am stubborn (working on that)

I hope you mean you're working to strengthen your stubborn-ness. I expect his crying comes from his own pain, which includes shame. I don't think it's empathy - my W didn't just cry, she offered support. My W sometimes asked for a break in the questioning. She thought she couldn't eat or sleep and answer questions simultaneously.

2. as a BS did you pain shop like this or as a WS did your BS pain shop? Why do I keep trying to hurt myself more, I don't think this is normal that I can not let it go, if I will ever reconcile I feel like i eventually have to stop hurting myself.

No - I don't think I pain-shopped. I processed pain. It was more pain than I ever thought possible, but I did my best to prevent myself from adding pain that really wasn't in me.

3. Does this feeling of feeling less than the AP ever go away after reconciliation or will I always feel a twinge of it?

It was easier for me than if W had cheated with a man. OTOH, she chose ow over me for a year and a half (she did it even before the PA started), and I had to deal with that. In the years since d-day, however, she's chosen me consistently. It took 3.5-4 years of that for me to be confident that she really did want me. So yeah, the fear that W really didn't want me went away.

The advice in here is spot on.

First, you are in very early days here. Everything you are feeling and doing is pretty normal. I think it's great you blocked AP and deleted the texts. Most of us eventually stop hyper focusing on the AP but you've done it very early.

I want to speak to comparing. There are different ways to frame the pointlessness of comparing and the more popular ones are listed above.

Here's one that I eventually came to: my husband may actually prefer the AP to me. Perhaps he loved her deeply. Perhaps he wanted to be with her. That hurts for sure but you know what? That takes nothing away from me. That doesn't mean I'm not lovable or kind or a good wife or a good mother or the million other things that I am. If he chooses someone else that's on him, his preference (or his dysfunction). It didn't make me worthless. It didn't make me less than. It was simply his preference.

I am not minimizing how painful that is to feel. What I am saying is that if you invest in raising your self esteem (that he drained from his affair) and remember your value / worth, your need to compare will dwindle if not evaporate. What's the point of comparing? You know your worth and someone else (probably a bunch of someone elses) would choose you in a heartbeat. If he can't see that or it doesn't meet his needs, that is not a statement of your worth.

A side bonus of this work (rebuilding your self esteem and remembering your worth) is that one stops the pick me dance. One stops leaning on their WS to restore them. One stops feeling less than and with that confidence one is in a much better place to rebuild a marriage. Or move on if they choose.

Just sharing my own reasons for pain shopping:

Early on and for quite a while, I needed to hear or "experience" it over and over to fully accept that it had all truly happened.

It's just SO shocking that a loved & trusted spouse/partner is capable of such self-centered choices and such destructive behavior.

So, it took a while of asking, re-asking, imagining it all, and revisiting the evidence I'd found to fully accept that THIS. ACTUALLY. HAPPENED.

stunning

And then even longer to accept that there was no time machine or waking up from a bad dream or magical apology or explanation that could ever make it NOT HAPPEN.

crushing

Later, I used pain shopping and some other negative techniques to keep emotional distance between me and my spouse. It felt safer. It was safer. It helped me feel less vulnerable and be more indifferent.

It's a necessary part of healing, I think. Or it was for me.

But at some point I will still have to decide if I can stay with this person or not. I will still have to decide if this person is a "safe enough" person to take a risk with again.

Wishing you well on your journey

I literally had to check to see that I wasn’t reading my own post. I feel 100% the way you do and in the beginning my husband acted exactly like you described your husband. He said crazy things. I researched photos of her a few years after dday and shoved them in his face. He looked disgusted once he focused in and saw her. He thought I was trying to make him feel stupid by showing her. He also said I was trying to destroy him by constantly bringing her up- to which I said, “ I wouldn’t even know this piece of trash had you not shoved her in my life and were willing to destroy me!” Like, seriously, she’s not someone either of me would come into contact with in social circles—-which apparently made her a perfect sidechick. Yet, also very scary because I’m thinking now if this is some weird attraction.

I still have every email and all the evidence I gathered. Just in case.

I know this is crazy but because she was so unattractive and blah it gives me some relief that if they were ever seen out no one would’ve suspected a thing because my husband is very handsome.

Which, honestly I think is what his midlife crisis affair was about in some aspects. He also never became what his parents wanted although he’s very successful. He was a star athlete and women have always flirted with him. When he started to see that wane as he approached 50 he was desperate to feel that power in being desired by others. He started working out and taking testosterone supplements.

She was in her 50’s, taking HRT, never married, no kids, no long time relationships, unattractive and desperate.

She couldn’t believe a guy like him would even give her the time of day and she "worked" hard for the win.

And lost.

She was low hanging desperate fruit that was dying on the vine and he was gaunt and famished from lack of cheers and validation & admiration from strangers.

I also think the testosterone supplements raised his libido and made his brain smaller while her HRT made her more receptive and willing.

But that’s another theory.

It’s strange to see someone you love faulted like this even separate from how devastating it was for me. It hurts me to know how much insecurity he had that I was unaware of.

[This message edited by Howcthappen at 11:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14th]

Groot

Houseofplane, what do you mean? I am interested to hear you elaborate if you don't mind.

My answer (your questions about them are actually about you) Is kind of better if left vague. But to the extent that you define yourself by your husband, that your self esteem depends on what you think other people think of you (especially your husband)…worth noodling on.

Another angle…ask yourself before you ask your questions and go pain shopping, am I asking questions to manipulate him? Or yourself?

Howcthappen I am sorry you are in this crappy boat too.

That sounds EXACTLY like what i do! I threatened to show him pics of her all the time, like this is what you jeopardized your entire family for? Straight garbage. The girl was older than me (not by much) made SIGNIFICANTLY less than me (I am the breadwinner) she had multiple dads for her children (not on good terms with them) married way young and divorced, and did drugs :( I showed him the selfie he took of them when she was sleeping and he immeidately said "that is disgusting, don't show me that" Well friend, you didn't think that when you snapped it.

When some of our close friends saw photos of her because clearly i was petty at the beginning they all asked him wtf he was thinking, it wasn't until AFTER this that he realized she was a very ugly person , inside and out. She would leave her kids unattended to to see him and apparently liked getting used and screwed. After all of those things were pointed out and he had to see her face a few times he was disgusted but he admitted he thought she was downright beautiful during... gross. They both worked together and she jeopardized her job as well and was also getting her paycheck garnished. I just can't see the beauty in any of that other than she literally bent over backwards to please my H. He said that she showered him with so many compliments and I told him "If you believed these compliments were true while you were breaking every vow you ever made to me and were leaving your small children at home who needed two parents, than your an idiot, there was nothing to compliment." That hit him hard but it is true, how he behaved as a 35 year old man was repulsive.

LIKE HOW COULD THIS EVEN BE A THING?! How could he completely lose sight of what he loved and what we meant to him? I have been trying to redirect my questions to be more focused on us and moving forward but the anger I have towards her and him usually bubble over and I lose my cool. I try very hard not to be like that because I hate talking about her because she shouldn't be taking up any headspace of mine because she ISN'T worth it and she will be miserable for a long time. I recently saw a photo of her and she looks so sad, no smiles and she looked like she aged even worse than she already was.
He was low, he was unhappy, he was depressed BECAUSE he didn't change his life and his ways, he ONLY quit his job because I made him since they worked together, now he is making WAY more money and he is "happier". I explained to him his fidelity isn't reliant on his happiness, there will always be times of trouble, he needs to work through IC and figure it out.

You are correct about the low hanging fruit, H said he chose her because she was there and willing,

I think I will be one of those people that will may be able to move forward in reconciliation but not forgive, at least not for a long time.

House of Plane you're right.
I worry so much about what went on in his brain during the A and wonder if he still has those thoughts now.
He claims he doesn't but it is like I want to erase anything nice he ever thought of her and I know that I can not.
I had a breakdown when I got home from the store last night because on my drive home I imagined being him coming home from being with her and how much he probably dreaded hating coming home, how he probably talked to her the whole way home about their nasty sexcapades. I told him this and he urged me to bring it up in IC because he doesn't know how to quiet my thoughts, he tells me he didn't dread coming home but I know he did. How could he not? Four kids, two under 3 and a wife that he claimed "bossed" him around.
In the very early days after the A when he was still very defensive he told me " I had my fun got it out of my system and I am home" Only a selfish person says that. So now I am not fun? IDK I am going in circles so yes, what he thinks matters to me because it will determine if I can move forward in R.

He admitted so many undeserving compliments he gave to her all the while the whole summer he didn't give me any. I was at the gym a lot and working on myself spiritually , taking our children to church and he was doing that.
He fell in "love" with the total opposite type of person, when in reality I know it is because of how she made him feel.

So yes, I am hurt. I am trying to find value in myself again and raise my self esteem which clearly is in the garbage.

There is a difference between Pain Shopping and Processing Pain.

I am going to fast forward a bit and get to your questions.

1. I hate when he cries when I ask him questions, he says it is because saying anything that hurts me makes him feel like crap and he has hurt me enough, but I still find that to be shame? Or is it normal and considered empathy? He answers my questions over and over but eventually he breaks maybe it is stress , idk. I usually am relentless because I am stubborn (working on that)

No one likes the Mirror of Truth - and that's what your questions are to him. Making him realize your pain a truth as opposed to the lies he told/is telling himself. Reality is a bitch compared to the Fantasy he was living. His tears are not your problem. Actions have consequences. His Shame Spiral is on him - and I hope he is in IC for this.

2. as a BS did you pain shop like this or as a WS did your BS pain shop? Why do I keep trying to hurt myself more, I don't think this is normal that I can not let it go, if I will ever reconcile I feel like i eventually have to stop hurting myself.

I did not Pain Shop as much as I did making sure I knew every detail that was possible to be known. And I spent a lot of time looking at the photo evidence I had. Because I for the longest time I couldn't accept that this really did happen. To me. And while I am years out and no longer feel the need to look at this data I have stored in a far away but safe place - if I need to I feel better knowing it there and I can. I even keep a spreadsheet of these types of thoughts. And even the act of jotting them down makes me feel somewhat better knowing it won't ruminate in my brain.

3. Does this feeling of feeling less than the AP ever go away after reconciliation or will I always feel a twinge of it?

NO...and YES. Eventually I stopped comparing myself to LTAP and started putting my time/effort/energy into reclaiming the BASGU (Bad Ass Sparkly Goddess Unicorn) that is ME. Which has nothing to do with LTAP. That took time and distance.

Thank you for the replies
I started IC yesterday and I’m really focusing on how to be kinder to myself and realize I’m only four months out. I’m looking for healthier ways to process the trauma.
I have to keep reminding myswlf that healing isn’t a straight line and that I’m only four months out.

So wonderful, Groot. You will find no matter any other outcome, looking after yourself is always time well spent. Give yourself grace and kindness and when you need to ask the same question 40 times, do that. Do whatever YOU need.

Thank you hikingout! It feels nice.
I’ve neglected my needs long enough.

First of all, give yourself grace for pain shopping. You are new to this game. It has only been a few months and your feelings can truly be wild and unpredictable right now. I would say that when you feel this need to know the dirt, shift your focus... change your mindset.. get busy with something else and maybe that will subside.. Almost like when we want to have a second piece of cake and we need to walk away or count to ten-- lol. Unlike you, I never asked the nitty gritty questions... I would have never been able to heal.. Once you hear it you cannot unhear it, and it would only make me feel worse. The fact is they enjoyed this affair whether sexual or emotional because that is why they kept going back. It was a thrill for them no matter if it was the "best or not the best" because it was different and someone had their complete attention. My advice would be you are hurting, don't make yourself hurt more.. you can't unhear it.. you can't un-see it in your mind. I hope your H continues to help you in this journey of healing and heals himself too. I will you peace. God Bless.