SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So a little over a week ago, we had another what I call "big discussion". They can be quite nasty but usually something good always comes out of them. Long story short, my WW snipped at me because I was gone most of a Sunday afternoon picking up a few things from friends. My friends like to BS a lot and I lost track of time. Anyway, when I got home she was a bit pissy with me as I didn’t let her know I’d be home late (7 pm. I should have texted her and told her but she did know where I was going and that I tend to get caught up BS’ing. One of them is my best friend) anyway, she told me she didn’t appreciate me being gone so long without notification and that in the past she’d have let it go, but now she is going to speak up about things like that. (I’m fine with that). Anyway, I was feeling a bit upset as she’s not really put a lot of work into Recovery so out to the office I went to do work and get my mind off of it. She came out a little later and asked if I was OK. I kind of vented a bit and let her know what I’d been feeling most recently. I told her I didn’t think she was doing enough to support recovery and asked her what she could note by writing down on a piece of paper everything she has done to support recovery that I doesn’t include the things I’ve told her to do. We wound up not speaking for two days and I approached her to break the ice. She said that comment really hurt as she said she’s done lots of things. ie: she recently gave me a massage, does my laundry, cooks, etc. those aren’t quite the things that promote recovery, or damage repair (at least to me). I appreciate those things, but I need more. But to the main point, she said she doesn’t think me coming to SI is a positive thing. She thinks it’s making things worse. (Maybe worse for her but it does help me). In any case, I decided to make a deal with her. I’ll stop visiting this site if she begins IC to work on herself. And I demanded MC to help with our terrible communication skills. I hate that I had to use this forum as a bargaining chip, but if it promotes healing than I’m all for it. All this being said I will continue to come here until she begins IC which for some reason feels like I’ll still becoming here for a while (LOL…sort of) there are probably many more details to how this came about but I didn’t want to write a book.

So you're asking her to do something to help heal herself and she's asking you to give up your online support system filled with people on both sides of the equation who have lived through it?

Has she read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair? Because you're right, the little gestures she's making do not help you heal and to trust. I might reconsider this deal were I you. I do wish you luck, however.

Hmm I'm really not sure why you are effectively bribing your wife to go to IC... For what reason are you doing this? It is up to her to fix herself, if she doesn't think she requires IC and that a healthy minded person is happy to cheat on their spouse, then that tells you the type of person she is. It might be better to have given her a list of your expectations of what you want to see from her and a timescale she has to reach it, otherwise you will think long & hard on whether she is a safe person to carry on a marriage with. She will know there are repercussions for her lack of trying hard enough maybe. You're giving her power over your life and I'm sorry but she has not earned that from you with her actions. Also, unless you have ever lied to her etc and she has reason to doubt your whereabouts, she has no right to make you feel bad for forgetting to update her that you might be a little late, these things happen and a simple 'sorry I forgot' should have been enough.

This is all just my opinion of course, I'm just trying to put some thoughts across from one BS to another, seeing as you've been through enough already 😊

WS here. My wife and I both joined SI after Dday. It helped me a lot to be able to talk about my challenges and concerns with fellow WS's, and they did a great job of holding my feet to the fire while also being as compassionate and honest as possible.

TBH, it used to make me angry sometimes too (having her on SI). Early on, I still had my head firmly planted in my ass, and while I was trying, I just wasn't very good R material just yet. The BS's of course saw this and gave my wife advice similar what you probably get now. They suggested to detach from me, do a 180, maybe even leave... and they were right to tell her those things, that's what was best for her emotional health. But it made me angry, because I wasn't ready to "own" my shit yet, and so it felt as if everyone on SI "was against me".

Have you considered having her come to SI and speak with some other WS's? Maybe we can help guide her a bit and help her to understand that our goal isn't to push R or D, it's just to offer support, and that each spouse needs different support right now.

I realize that not everyone wants their spouse on SI, and it forces some issues sometimes. But for us, it worked, and it helped, a lot. We are 7.5 years out at this point, and still working on R, but in a MUCH better place than 7 years ago.

She's done absolutely nothing to become a safe partner. Giving you a massage isn't on the list.

Bribing her into IC will do nothing. She will only get something out of IC, if she puts in the effort and work. She's proven she won't.

You've now promised to give up your support system,in return,every few weeks she will sit on a room with a therapist.

Bad deal.

She's not done the work,because she's not interested in reconciliation. She doesn't want to divorce. That's not the same thing.

My wife has HATED SI since before D-day (weird story, in my latest thread if you care at all). I compromised on a lot in my R attempt, I refused to budge on SI. I honestly viewed it as a red flag for someone to try to isolate me from my support system. Sounds like a bum deal to me as well.

Dom, I have suggested she visit the site for herself to see what it’s about. One of her best friends from high school after one of our heated conversations told her that tossing my journal was a huge violation, that she needed to put forth more effort, and that SI was probably a toxic place for me. (I completely disagree). Sad thing is neither of them have visited the site and have made a judgement based on no evidence. I may still wind up telling her I’m not leaving as I doubt she’ll follow through on IC anyway.

I hate that I had to use this forum as a bargaining chip, but if it promotes healing than I’m all for it.

There is no bargaining with a WS not willing to do the work. She is trying to separate you from a support system that encourages you to hold her accountable. She doesn’t want accountability. My WW hated SI, she blamed it on my triggers, but then I reminded her why I was here in the first place.

She should be doing everything possible to help you heal.

Unremorseful ws hate this site.

Remorseful ws see the value.

You've never posted anything that sounds as if she is remotely Remorseful.

Most times I really have a tough time finding the words to fully describe what I’m feeling/needing/dealing with. This goes for her and with all of you on this site. When I read others stories here, I have to step back and attempt to see the larger picture. I’m only hearing one side of the story so I am careful not to judge, although like me, we are all suffering. Emotions can come into play and sway me towards an opinion, as I’m sure it does others. Don’t get me wrong, I very much appreciate all of the advice received here, no matter how it makes me feel. There are very likely things she does, even things that are very subtle, that maybe I don’t articulate well. I should, but sometimes the hurt from all of this overcomes the little things. The little things haven’t been enough to truly get me to heal, but I can see the potential there to have something really great. In my heart and in my gut I know it’s there, I just can’t explain how or why I know this. I’m a very patient person, and I can nurture things to help them grow. I will work with her, and give more time to grow into the person that I can still see. At the same time, I owe a lot of you here for helping me to create what I will call "the line" that I have which is the breaking point. I have learned that I can be OK on my own if I need to be. I can find happiness in things I do in every day life. I’ve learned that I don’t "need" her, but I "want her". We get along so well, and do so many things that we enjoy together every day. I believe she’s currently in a place where she just wants to forget it ever happened and move on with our life. I told her for me it’s not that easy. I believe that she really wants to fix this but she doesn’t know how to go about it and she’s too damn bullheaded to seek outside help. I think my next step is to see it she would be willing to set up an account on SI and begin interacting with other waywards, I honestly think she would get the most benefit from hearing from others here. Hellfire, I’ve always appreciated your straight to the point, pull no punches attitude. You aseem to be a driven "get it done" kind of Lady and I can appreciate that.
DaddyDom, you have such an elequent way of putting down your thoughts. You could be a therapist in your own right. Your ability to put thoughts into words is downright amazing. Your "books" 🤣 as you call them, are incredibly well written. They are always a huge source of knowledge and comfort. I hope you keep it up for years to come. I have worked up a new way for my wife and I to communicate that doesn’t allow yelling, name calling, or hurtful comments. We each get a turn to speak our mind completely before the other is allowed to respond. We’ve done this once and it was a huge success for us. I’m going to suggest we do it weekly. For now thought, I’m going to see about introducing her to this sight, even if only to get her feet wet. It will be tough though, to overcome her friends influence on what this site is about. See you all soon.

Consider your own IC for clarity and support.

If she isn't willing and eager to try anything within reason to salvage your relationship after she smashed it to bits, it's not reconciliation it's rugsweeping. Get IC for yourself as suggested and consider what it is you want from this marriage and why it's not there.

Cmb - I think a lot of WS’s miss the bigger picture.. their actions not only up-ended the day-to-day relationship, their actions change a BS’s entire sense of reality. Your past isn’t what you thought it was, your present is intangible as you wonder if you know ANYTHING real, and your future (if in reconciliation) is with someone you may not even know yet. That’s a huge leap of faith on the part of the BS. You needing to make a deal that trades SI for her to see an IC is astoundingly wrong. Don’t do it.

I'll be honest--I would give you all of my opinions, but I do not see you as open to them. You are as reluctant to change as your WW is.

I’m a very patient person, and I can nurture things to help them grow. I will work with her, and give more time to grow into the person that I can still see.

I'm sure you see this as a beautiful thing and you are feeling quite proud of yourself. Many of us BS have this same type of personality. Unfortunately my IC shed some light on this for me and forced me--metaphorically kicking and screaming--into acknowledging that the person I was NOT patient and nurturing toward was myself. Everyone else got extra time, understanding, effort--aren't I a fantastic human? But the person who lost out in all that "generous giving" was ME. Nobody was taking care of me. My WS was not returning the favor.

Guess what? I know you don't want to hear this, but "overly nurturing people" get stepped on, not loved. Because the Takers of the world A. Choose us as partners (We're selfless givers! The Takers run to us!), and then they B. Take advantage of us because they are Takers; it's what they do.

What you need to do is love yourself as much as you love your WW. And what does loving yourself look like? It looks like, "No, I'm sorry WW. Not good enough. I have been patient enough. I do not owe a grown ass woman 'nurturing' because she is not a child. She is my equal, and I deserve a partner who treats me well. Fix yourself. Let me know when it's done, and we'll see if there is any chance for us." Advocating for yourself and then TAKING ACTION is how you love yourself more than you love her. Or any other person. "No, WW. SI is my support system. You should go to IC because it's the right thing to do. I do not need to give something up in reciprocity."

You do you, dude. I made a lot of my own mistakes. But I wanted to at least try one more time to explain that your approach is not the healthy one you believe it is. (I thought that too.) Healthy relationships DO involve the word No. They do not involve the word "nurture" unless you are talking about raising a child.

You certainly do not need to listen to me, but do IC yourself. Let an unbiased person guide you toward better boundaries. They make a world of difference.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:55 PM, Sunday, July 9th]

she’s too damn bullheaded to seek outside help

I looked up ‘bull headed’, it says ‘determined in an obstinate and unthinking way’. The word ‘unthinking’ jumps out as a particularly unhelpful response from a WS, as seems that’s what got them into infidelity in the first place. Surely you deserve some thought, consideration, care?

Re outside help… Is she just afraid of exposing herself? Or feels herself above the need? It would be good to locate the real motive behind ‘bull headed’. Currently, It sounds deeply incurious and not a little complacent to me. Perhaps you have allowed her to be both?

[This message edited by Edie at 10:07 PM, Sunday, July 9th]

@Copingmybest

Thank you, and I get what you are saying in regard to your current expectations of her. It's my personal opinion (and from the comments, I think most people feel similarly) that your wife is not safe to be around right now. But you know her and yourself best, and we each have to go at our own pace. Do what you need... if it yields success, then great! If not, then you can say you tried it that way and it didn't work. Either way, you have an answer.

I'll just offer you this tidbit for your contemplation. My wife says, "No one changes until they are forced to do so". I find this to be true. It certainly was for me. It's human nature, right? You'll drive the same path to and from work every single day... until a car accident blocks the road and you are forced to take a different path. Otherwise, since what we are doing is working, we just keep doing it the same.

I can't say how much work your wife has put in, but I can tell you that the responses and reactions she is having are not what I would consider good signs. She still needs to do work on herself. To be honest, the mere fact that she thinks she can put demands on you, or blackmail your recovery when you were the victim here... tells me everything I need to know about her. That's how I know she's not remorseful. That's how I know she's not owning her actions yet. And that's why I say she's not safe. Entitlement, selfishness and lack of empathy are the hallmarks of an active WS. Telling you how to heal is entitlement on her part. She doesn't want you on SI because she thinks you'll be tempted to leave, and that is selfishness. Telling you to stop doing what's helping you and putting her own limits on it... that's not love or empathy.

I didn't really change until boundaries were set. And then I was forced to make a choice. You are accepting her as she is for now, and that means, she has no reason to change. If you are okay with that for now, that is your business, and I honestly hope you find some peace. But I just wanted to let you know the score so you can make a decision completely informed.

So you're asking her to do something to help heal herself and she's asking you to give up your online support system filled with people on both sides of the equation who have lived through it?

This. She doesn’t get what she needs to do at all. Does she die therapy, she needs it.

I want to thank you all again for kicking me in my ass. Seems I may have peeked through the rose colored glasses again. You are all right, recovery shouldn’t be about giving up something helpful for something else that the other doesn’t really want to do in the first place. I’m not the one who needs to make sacrifices now, it’s her time for that, and I don’t say that in a way to be mean. She still is thinking selfishly putting her needs above mine. I’ve felt that way for a while, but I was trying to be the bigger person. Why is it that some of us who just try to be decent to so many others get walked all over so often. I am seeking out a new IC as my last one I feel has given me all he has to offer. I need some fresh perspective. I will continue to heal me and I guess it’s time for another big difficult talk with my wife. Someone mentioned above that some WS only do things when they are forced to, and that rings true here too, as she has only made significant changes when the shit has literally hit the fan.

[This message edited by Copingmybest at 11:08 AM, Monday, July 10th]

Why is it that some of us who just try to be decent to so many others get walked all over so often.

While this question asks for generalizations, I think it’s a good specific question to dig into with the new therapist. There are some obvious answers, you love her, she is your family. Thats your sense of commitment.

We see others through the filter of who we are.

You have good intentions, a good heart. You want to see that in others.

And in terms of some ws, I don’t think it’s not that they never had a good heart or good intentions but affairs tend to bring out a lot of narcissistic tendencies even for those who don’t have NPD. It’s because they have created shame so deep and wide it’s difficult for most of us to look it in the eye for a long time. And being narcissistic by definition is someone who protects all their trauma by becoming a walking talking coping mechanism. I have been there.

Your wife thinks this site is reminding you, causing you to dwell on it. And therefore you can’t get to the rug sweeping she wants to do because she doesn’t want to face herself, or you. She wants the toothpaste back in the tube.

But a ws who understands the level of trauma you have been put through will understand this shit takes years to heal from and their active participation if their own recovery and that of the marriage is the only thing that can possibly move things forward. The longer she puts that off the worse things become.

The reason I say she needs therapy is it’s a hard road to self awareness of there is no structured habit of self discovery. Therapy helped me start that, writing about it helped me analyze it, practicing it made me understand how badly I sucked at connection, communication, and at caring for my own self even. Affairs aren’t caring for yourself, affairs are destroying what modicum of decency you might have believed you held before you ruin that too.

She has deep seated issues with self worth, self love. And the value we place on others and the love we are capable of giving are all filtered through that too. So in other words, she needs to eradicate the poison because everyone she touches is infected by it, and she is oblivious of that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:43 PM, Monday, July 10th]

Reconciliation is a long hard journey. It takes two totally committed people to get through it. At beginning you have to set the boundaries and requirements and she has to do the heavy lifting. You really haven’t even started because she is pulling in other directions.

You need to have a discussion not a negotiation and lay out the terms of R, she can take it or leave it.