Question on WS behavior
My WW, I feel, is sort of "still living the lie" in the regards that she is still trying to keep her secrets well hidden. It’s not like a good bit of the community probably doesn’t already know, but she hasn’t told her only sister of the A even though her sister cheated on her husband years ago, she hasn’t told her cousin that she’s close with (who was cheated on by her husband several years ago), and she most certainly is hoping our two grown boys 22 and 24 won’t find out. From a WS standpoint, how disfunctional is this. I’ve told her before that maybe she should let our two boys know, to use it as a learning experience as to why one should never resort to this behavior, and to show that we value our relationship and are hoping to work it all out. Am I wrong in that regard? I have told my WW the things I need the most. Most important on the list is for her to do the work to show me that she is becoming safe, and can identify the reason why she cheated. That one thing would make all the difference in the world, but she just won’t go there, it’s like she is ashamed of the A and she just doesn’t want to deal with it. I’ve done all I can to help her but like many have mentioned, I can’t fix her, she has to want to fix herself. As I still only average around 4 hours of sleep per night, this going on for 2-1/2 years, and after much internal reflection, I can honestly say that I love my wife more than anything, but I’m falling out of love with her because I’m learning that she simply can’t be there for me in the capacity that I want my spouse to be. I’ve really been thinking hard about a trial separation and then onto divorce even though it will reek havoc on my business, my source of livelyhood. That was initially the fear I’d been dealing with is not wanting to go into debt to balance our possessions and wind up having to go back to working 7 days a week for another 5-7 years to get back to where I am now, but it’s looking more doable as every day passes.
Edit: I sure wish I’d have discovered SI before DDay, I would have handled things much differently. Now I almost feel like I let the opportunity pass to handle this the right way. 🤷🏼♂️
Edit #2: I think her primary flaw right now is her coping abilities with major issues.
18 comments posted: Tuesday, September 19th, 2023
A percentage question for BS’s (and WS’s if you’d like to chime in)
From a percentage standpoint, what percent would you place on level of destructiveness.
The actual physical affair itself vs the WS behavior after DDay. At 2-1/2 years in, while the thought of my wife with her AP makes me want to puke, I feel extremely confident that I can get past that, but her behavior and lack of visible desire to "right the ship" by working on herself and being empathetic and remorseful is viewed as continued destructiveness.
I’d place my percentages at:
PA = 20%
Behavior afterwards = 80%
Edit: I guess I should have specified that for WS’s, what percentages would you use to describe what you believe caused the most damage.
19 comments posted: Monday, September 11th, 2023
Good read so far
Hey all, I'm back. (Never really left, just wasn't posting). Anyway, since you all told me the deal I made with my wife about NC with SI here for 3 months in exchange for her starting IC was a bad deal (you were all right) I've decided to tell my wife the deal is off. She's only had one IC visit and I don't think anything came of it. She just said at the end of the session that her counselor said fight like heqll for the marriage and she said that's the plan. Let's just say we all have differing opinions of what "fight" means. Also, last weekend she noticed for the first time in two months that I wasn't wearing my wedding ring. She informed me that she didn't like it and I told her she didn't have to like it. I told her that seeing that ring every day reminded me of her broken vows and promises. It was causing me to be depressed and it's now off as it makes me feel better. She then threw me the "for better or worse" comment. That comment had to sink in for a couple days but I now see it as I should subscribe to "for better or worse" but that didn't have to apply to her when she had her affair. She is still selfish and she is still a threat to my safety. But to the main point of my post. I just started reading a book this morning at 1 am (yup, still not sleeping worth a shit) called "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Manuel J. Smith (not sure if I'm allowed to recommend a book here or not). It's an assertiveness training book and so far it very well describes my passive-aggressive mentality and how my wife and others have manipulated me over the years. It's been very enlightening and I can feel it giving me a new sense of inner strength. I did the pick me dance for quite a while and had I read this book years ago, I doubt I'd of had the self doubt to be taken advantage of or be manipulated to bend to my wife's will. I'm hell bent on change and becoming a stronger minded and assertive individual. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
8 comments posted: Saturday, August 5th, 2023
An unusual statement
Have any of you WS's ever said, or any BS's ever heard their WS say "You should be thanking my AP for the affair, because it broke the marriage out of the dull state it was in". I've heard that from my WW twice in the last two years since D Day. Last weekend I politely said no to that remark. But wow, a knife to the gut still hurts even though it's a different knife. I get the reason behind it, but no, I'll take a hard pass on that one.
52 comments posted: Sunday, July 16th, 2023
Made a deal…..sort of
So a little over a week ago, we had another what I call "big discussion". They can be quite nasty but usually something good always comes out of them. Long story short, my WW snipped at me because I was gone most of a Sunday afternoon picking up a few things from friends. My friends like to BS a lot and I lost track of time. Anyway, when I got home she was a bit pissy with me as I didn’t let her know I’d be home late (7 pm. I should have texted her and told her but she did know where I was going and that I tend to get caught up BS’ing. One of them is my best friend) anyway, she told me she didn’t appreciate me being gone so long without notification and that in the past she’d have let it go, but now she is going to speak up about things like that. (I’m fine with that). Anyway, I was feeling a bit upset as she’s not really put a lot of work into Recovery so out to the office I went to do work and get my mind off of it. She came out a little later and asked if I was OK. I kind of vented a bit and let her know what I’d been feeling most recently. I told her I didn’t think she was doing enough to support recovery and asked her what she could note by writing down on a piece of paper everything she has done to support recovery that I doesn’t include the things I’ve told her to do. We wound up not speaking for two days and I approached her to break the ice. She said that comment really hurt as she said she’s done lots of things. ie: she recently gave me a massage, does my laundry, cooks, etc. those aren’t quite the things that promote recovery, or damage repair (at least to me). I appreciate those things, but I need more. But to the main point, she said she doesn’t think me coming to SI is a positive thing. She thinks it’s making things worse. (Maybe worse for her but it does help me). In any case, I decided to make a deal with her. I’ll stop visiting this site if she begins IC to work on herself. And I demanded MC to help with our terrible communication skills. I hate that I had to use this forum as a bargaining chip, but if it promotes healing than I’m all for it. All this being said I will continue to come here until she begins IC which for some reason feels like I’ll still becoming here for a while (LOL…sort of) there are probably many more details to how this came about but I didn’t want to write a book.
20 comments posted: Sunday, July 9th, 2023
Is this normal
So it is now 2 years and 2 months since D day. After a VERY slow start to my WW putting in effort she has begun. Still slowly but positive progress is still positive progress. Early on we really engaged in renewed sexual activity. I believe I read somewhere that is called Hysterical Bonding. Lately though, when we try to engage in sex, during the act images of her and her AP enter my head ins it’s lights out for passion. I also read in another book that a lot of times the role of the AP and spouse effectively swap places. I still feel now like I’m just a really good friend. I don’t feel like I’m her spouse or soulmate. This is all coming to fruition more as tomorrow is our 26th Wedding Anniversary which doesn’t really mean much to me anymore since she broke her vows and promises of commitment. Those words she said on that day 26 years ago really meant something to me.
We never really sat down and wrote out a timeline and I’m feeling like we should as I still wonder what, where, and how things progressed. There was a situation one fall day where she went to and historic City on the Ohio river with an old highschool friend (another girl) they took a bunch of pictures of sightseeing stops. Once when I was snooping early on after D day I saw her friend sent her a bunch of the pictures and my wife responded with "thanks for these, but these aren’t the pictures I want to see!" I asked her about this and she got really defensive and said "don’t I get any privacy?" She never did answer my query on that. I asked about it again a year later and she still just changed the subject. I’m thinking how can I really trust her if she can’t be 100% honest. Is all of this normal for me. Mostly asking about the feeling of being just a friend and the images re entering my head 2+ years later. Thank you all. I truly value your advice and support.
12 comments posted: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023
New revelation
So this is my second anniversary of learning of my wife’s affair. Two days ago I was struggling with D day +2 years and since I couldn’t sleep I thought I’d write in my journal. Unfortunately my journal wasn’t in my drawer. This morning I asked my wife what happened to it as I knew she did something to it. She told me she threw it away as she was afraid of something happening to us and our kids finding it. I’m not happy about that as she is still being selfish and thinking of herself. I’ve been at the bar for the last 4-1/2 hours. I’m beside myself. It’s time for a big talk, and I think a tough decision, but right now I can’t think straight. Life sucks and I’m so tired of it.
Sorry for the shitty attitude but I’m so tired of it.
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30 comments posted: Saturday, April 1st, 2023
Not sure of the right direction from here
Ok, been a few weeks since I last posted. Some of you may know my back story and where I'm at currently. For those that dont': BH here, almost 2 years out. I've researched the shit out of infidelity, things that I/We should be doing for recovery, things that the wayward spouse is possibly feeling after DD. I love my wife more than anything, we are best friends. I have been extremely supportive to her through the last 22 months. Her, not so much. I think she's still in denial, or dealing with shame, or whatever. I really can't ever get her into a heartfelt conversation about her feeling on this. Some have suggested she's just rug sweeping. I have been patiently waiting for her to "get it" and show true empathy and compassion for her actions and for what I'm going through, but as one member on here wrote, "hope is not a strategy"
So a couple weeks ago, we were taking a hike through a very old cemetery and ran across a stone that had the name "Shellenberger" on it. She commented "I think there's a Shellenberger Park here in town". I left it lie, but my thoughts were "yes, there is, that is one of the places you and your AP would meet up". So a couple weeks ago, I again didn't sleep and the next morning she asks if there's anything I need to talk about (she doesn't ask that very often). I reluctantly decided to tell her my feelings on the matter. I told her I couldn't understand why she would act like she's never been there when in fact she most certainly knew. I told her how that made me feel and when I was done letting things out. All she had to say was "do you feel better telling me that and getting it off your chest". There was no remorse, no I'm sorry, no empathy. Just "do I feel better now", No, I don't feel better now, I feel worse because I open up to her and she doesn't want to enter into conversation about it. So for the last two weeks, I've been a bit cold towards her because I've been into some pretty serious thinking about how she wasn't really honest with me and if she sort of lied about that then what else is she not telling me which leads me to where to go from here. Do I continue to wait until she finally "gets it" and begins to enter into true healing. Do I tell her that maybe we need to separate for a while so that she has time to truly think about whether or not me and our relationship together is worth saving and worth putting in the effort to do so. I've always felt she is putting in very minimal or non existant effort into getting through this. I think she feels it will fix itself. I guess I am hoping to hear from some waywards here on maybe what she's thinking/feeling/hoping for. I truly believe she wants to be with me and have our relationship be better than ever. I just have a feeling she's still wallowing in shame and that is preventing her from thinking of others first.
I'm getting exhausted from pulling the train by myself. I'm really beginning to think that if we split up, I could at least move on and be at peace, but damn it, I love that girl so much, even given the pain she's put me through. Am I a fool for continuing to hope she's going to get there. I really want to spend the rest of my life with someone who can/will be there for me, but these last two years, she has not. I have a really difficult time talking to her and opening up when she won't participate in the conversation. Should I force the issue of getting her to go to a couples counselor? I feel like I need an impartial 3rd party to ask the pertinent questions that I just can't, or don't know to ask, and for someone to try to "pull" the answers from her. These last two weeks of thinking have begun to steer me in the direction of being OK with being alone and living without her. Help me out Waywards, please.
26 comments posted: Friday, February 10th, 2023
Should the the other betrayed spouse know?
So I’ve seen a lot of posts where it is recommended that the other betrayed spouse be notified. The day after I found out, I called the AP, my friend, and had a talk with him. I was in a whirlwind mess and he manipulated me into not telling his wife because she was supposedly in a "fragile emotional state" and he was worried about what she might do to herself. So it’s been over 20 months and it eats at me that he hasn’t had to deal with the consequences of the affair. Some have indicated it might help me to get closure but I don’t know. Is it too late now or should I even be considering this. I usually feel like I’m having to protect him by keeping my mouth shut about who he really is to our community. I keep silent to "keep the peace" in my own marriage, so to speak. My gut tells me the time for this has passed. He is known for cheating on his wife several times, and I’ve felt she deserves better, or to at least know. From my understanding after his first affair, she retaliated by having a ONS with a classmate after a reunion, so maybe she isn’t worthy of the information.
Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone. Here’s to hoping next year is much better than our last.
10 comments posted: Saturday, December 24th, 2022
Results of IC?
I was wondering from the rest of you BS’s out there, do you really get out of IC what you are looking for. When I started to see my therapist, it felt good initially hearing that I wasn’t the problem. But after several sessions I felt that what I was really looking for was direction. What do I do, where do I go from here. I never really got what I was looking for. Sure he told me to "start a journal", I guess that kind of helped to write out my feelings, it slowed down my thought process having to put it on paper, but it never really "got me there". I was curious how many of you out there get out of IC what you are looking for, and what exactly are you looking for. When I finally began interacting here on SI, I finally got advice on directions I could/should take. Yes, some of the advice varied, but like one member mentioned, take the advice that best suits me and go with it.
Thanks in advance, all of the members here are a great asset and I appreciate all you’ve done to help me. I sometimes wish a bunch of us could get together for lunch or something, just the opportunity to meet such compassionate people. 
5 comments posted: Saturday, December 17th, 2022
What’s your advice, thoughts
So some background. I’m 55 my wife is 51. Married 25 years last May. I’d known her for years before we officially met and the years prior to meeting I felt we had a connection. She lost her mother to breast cancer at 10 and she lost her father to cancer/blood clot at 23, the year before we officially met/started dating. I knew I wanted to marry her right away as she is the type of girl I’d always envisioned spending the rest of my days with. As with so many others, kids entered the picture, excess work, being tired and the sex life became somewhat stale. I’d told her several times that I really wanted to be able to fully please her in that arena and had asked a couple times what she’d like, or what I could do for her as she didn’t seem like she was enjoying intimacy. Her response then was "I can’t think of anything ". That was quite a blow and eventually I felt like a failure in that regard and we kind of drifted away in the intimacy department. We still enjoyed spending time together, going on trips, playing games, we seemed generally very happy, just not intimate. I drifted toward not initiating sex as I knew from past experiences that she would show no enjoyment and that would end up depressing me with no way to fix it. Any time she wanted to get intimate, we did, but she would have to initiate it. Fast forward to fall of 2020 and one day she flirted with me and that caused me to say F it and just go for it. It went great and from that point on we really progressed in the sex department. It was getting to the point that I felt our marriage had finally turned the corner and we were on track to really going where we hoped to be. I was still working a ton trying to help pay to send 2 boys through college and keep up with investing for our future retirement when one day in March of 2021 something in my gut felt wrong.
She liked to hike a lot and as she was usually alone I could keep tabs on her through find a phone in case she got home late. One day she was going for some new tires and I saw she went to a local lake instead for a little while. I texted but no answer, I called and again no answer. 15 minutes later she called me back and angrily said she was waiting on word about her tires and was on the phone with her friend. Lie #1. After that I got suspicious and started researching infidelity. I put Verizon messenger on her phone so I could see text messages. It only barely worked until March 31 when it picked up some texting between her and her AP. I watched the messaging unfold and tracked her on her phone going to meet him at the lake again. I had to sit by and watch the progress as I was commuting between two different towns to give work estimates helpless to intercept them. I did call a local friend who did a drive by and reported that they were just talking in separate vehicles and he said he could see she was crying. Later that afternoon a phone number became available through the Verizon device and a quick google search showed it was a local friend who is director at our town funeral home. That afternoon I bumped into him at a chiropractor office and that was gut wrenching.
Later that evening, my wife, who hadn’t been sleeping great, went up to the spare bedroom (I sometimes snore) and when she did I went to the recliner and waited and watched the messenger app. It began that night with then exchanging pictures of themselves when they were younger, then moved to why they felt so compatible. After that it moved to the detailed description of the things he’d be doing to her at that moment if she was there with him. He described their situation as something that maybe happens for a reason and hinted about how maybe they could end up together. She responded with "Sounds amazing and unobtainable ". Shortly after she came downstairs for a snack and saw me sitting there not sleeping and asked if it was still work bothering me, I said no it was her and Mark. She dropped to a footstool and her first words were "I don’t want to be with him, I want to be with you". She explained a bit of how it all came about, I then began my research into infidelity and how it affects both spouses. I never once yelled at her or showed anger toward her. I was emotionally crushed. I could have never thought she could do that to me. We pretty quickly hashed out the Joe’s and why’s this could have happened ( not that it helped me much) but I did understand, and I have been very understanding of the feelings she must have been feeling through it all. For the first 12 months she maybe once said she was sorry, and it was only a "I’m sorry" (after one year she admitted to not thinking she should have to apologize after the way I treated her for years, remember my lack of intimacy due to feeling like a failure). About 6 months ago, after a bit of IC and prescriptions for Zoloft (I now suffer from pretty intense depression), I found the sticky here on what wayward spouses need to know about their betrayed spouse. I copied that and sent it to her in a text and asked that she read it. I told her that it was pretty spot on about how I feel aside from the anger parts. I told her that if she didn’t begin to step up and take more of a part in R that she stood a good chance of losing me. She said she read the article and that it was very good. That being said, she still shows no remorse. Never really has. On a few rare occasions she has made a small comment that made me start to think she was "getting it", but then nothing. I could count those instances on one hand and have fingers left over. She really seems to sincerely love me, we hug, hold hands, kiss passionately, enjoy our sexual experiences, but I honestly don’t think she has the mental capability to cope with the pain of the aftermath. I asked her if she has ever ready an articles on affair recovery and she said no. She said it makes her feel bad and why would she want to feel that way. My therapist tells me that if I show how much work I’m putting in, it might compel/convince her to step up her part of R. It has not. I think she just wants to put it behind us, act like it never happened and move on with our lives. Neither once of us sleep very well anymore and I know I don’t because of the affair and the lack of recovery, I think I know why she doesn’t sleep but she doesn’t talk about it. I used to check in weekly with how I’ve been doing but I stopped that because it was always just me talking and no real rapport between us. Occasionally something I say would make her upset then she would especially quiet and usually just walk away. She said when she gets that way she just wants to be alone and not even see me. When she’s that way I just want to hold her and tell her it will be alright but in those moments, that’s the opposite of what she wants. I’m come to terms with the physical affair for the most part, but right now I’m struggling with feeling like I just matter enough to her to be worth the effort for an effective recovery.
After D day I addressed her concerns point blank. I stopped working on weekends to devote time to her, I began planning days together so she wasn’t always the one doing it. I acknowledge to her how attractive I find her and how much I love her and how desperately I want to be happy for the rest of our days. I wish she would finally just "get it" and show me that I truly matter to her. im in seventh heaven when we are together doing things and going places, but when I’m alone, I’m in hell feeling unwanted and it’s just getting worse.
Well, that was a long post and I’m sure there’s more to it but I need a break from typing.
So as a BS, am I being unreasonable i my actions or beliefs. I can’t make her do something she doesn’t want to do, nor do I want to. I want her to want to help, and I’m not sure how to do that. I’m just going day by day and trying to survive.
19 comments posted: Friday, December 2nd, 2022
