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I do believe that people have a legitimate right to decide what their sexual comfort level is and that, so long as they aren't injuring others in the commission of fulfilling their sexual desires, they don't deserve to be harassed about it. It's either to our tastes or it isn't as sexual partners. Not everyone enjoys the sensation of having someone's genitals in their mouth, and that's a valid position to have. It doesn't matter to me if they did it in the past or if they did it with someone else. Sex is too intimate to be held to other people's expectations, and as we've seen so often, the WS often regrets their choices to exceed their own comfort level while they were cheating.

For the WS, I imagine this situation looks like "two plus two equals four". The continuation of the marriage plus her sexual behavior with the AP equals giving blow jobs if she wants to stay married. We, as BS's, will naturally see more nuance than that, but the bare bones of the "deal" remain, a transaction.

I get where you are coming from and I don't think at a fundamental level that I disagree with what you are saying. Everything in our lives is transactional, so I don't think that just applies here, which is why I do dismiss your last paragraph.

Consenting adults have a right to decide what their comfort level with any level of intimacy, be it physical or emotional. However, let's say for a second we took physical off the table for a second and frame in terms of an emotional connection or a level of emotional intimacy that a WS shared with their AP and only their AP. Would you still feel the same way and would we (the collective we here) still look at it the same way? If Mrs. AN framed it like this, "so what, you are gonna throw it all away because I won't have a deep emotional connection with you? I'm pretty sure most, if not all of us would nod in unison seemingly saying "Well yeah he is leaving you because you shared a part of yourself with the AP that you refuse to share with me."

I do not for one second buy the whole "repressed" sexuality thing. Sure, she may have been raised in such a way to feel shame about her sexual desires, as I'm well aware that happens quite often in our society and I hate it. However, she found an outlet in her life to express those desires in a physical form, but she wants to put a genie back in the bottle now. That being said, I wouldn't stay with her for one more minute, because she has decided that she is going to live an inauthentic life and hide herself, which I think speaks to a deeper form of self-loathing and I ain't got time to be married to someone who will not be who they are but rather who they think they should be based on some very antiquated notion of "societal norms." Maybe this is something she should work on in her IC, because she is stuck in a shame spiral where she equates the physical act she willingly gave to the AP as something she should be ashamed about because of her FOO and/or because it was not with her husband. I get that men and women view the physical aspect of relationships differently and admit that is my bias, but at the very core, whether it's physical or emotional intimacy being shared, as we consistently say, secrets kept between the WS and AP are continued betrayal and I do see AN's WW continued refusal as a continual betrayal of their marital values, which is as I said, plenty for him to justify leaving her, despite whatever bullshit framing she may try to use to message it.

I think there are elements being discounted. An affair in itself is stimulating. The Ap could be hideous but there is the secrecy, the adrenaline, and the dopamine. The risk, the fantasy world, and the character being played.

And then she suddenly wants to join a convent?

It’s like the fun drunk alcoholic who gives up all the good times along with the alcohol. They can’t have fun without the alcohol, swearing never to drink again, and then everyone misses the fun drunk, they’re so boring now.

Hopefully, someday, she’ll be able to reconcile with herself and become whole, not a fraction of herself, but a healthy combination of the wildling that enjoys risk taking and experimentation, and the woman who cares for her husband.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 11:39 PM, Friday, March 17th]

The problem here isn’t really that your wife won’t give you BJs, the problem is that she is not even considering your desires at all, is not willing to discuss it and is trying to blame YOU for divorcing her for BJs.

BINGO, Luna10. It’s not about the sex acts per se; it’s about her refusal to hold herself accountable for the damage she’s caused the marriage and even try to meet Aspect North halfway regarding his intimate needs.

If she wanted the marriage she had before, she shouldn’t have destroyed it.

Lurking soul- I agree- too much of a thread Jack. I personally don’t have questions about it but if you start another thread I will be happy to respond.

It’s just not a coincidence more divorces occur when it’s a woman cheating than a man. Some of it is the differing perspectives some of it is because more women are interested in the emotional involvement in an affair and can’t put that away as easily. But that’s all I will say now. I don’t want to sidetrack this further.

BINGO, Luna10. It’s not about the sex acts per se; it’s about her refusal to hold herself accountable for the damage she’s caused the marriage and even try to meet Aspect North halfway regarding his intimate needs.

Agreed.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:04 AM, Saturday, March 18th]

And then she suddenly wants to join a convent?

It’s like the fun drunk alcoholic who gives up all the good times along with the alcohol. They can’t have fun without the alcohol, swearing never to drink again, and then everyone misses the fun drunk, they’re so boring now.

Hopefully, someday, she’ll be able to reconcile with herself and become whole, not a fraction of herself, but a healthy combination of the wildling that enjoys risk taking and experimentation, and the woman who cares for her husband.

I agree, there is a huge disconnect t and am not suggesting it be deregarded.

My point is there are many people here who believe there was something the ap had that inspired this. I don’t think it was the ap but the situation.

I agree there is likely more that lies beneath that could be reconciled in her to heal that disconnect but she is going to need someone who specializes in it to help her understand.

If she is unwilling to explore it then they are at an impasse and this marriage can not survive. It’s also going to take an expansion of his perspectives as well, which is why so many people are saying sex therapist.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:06 AM, Saturday, March 18th]

I would look at it also from a risk perspective. Sexually repressed wife with lots of baggage finds an outlet with AP. She requires herself to be that prim and proper woman with you, but she obviously has issues with that woman, hence her A where sex was the full gamut.

If you go back to vanilla sex, and her prim snd proper ways, in five years she has to let the steam valve blow again. Another A. Rinse, wash, repeat.

So I see risk in two ways. First, if your WW maintains her prim snd proper attitude, you run the risk of her cheating again. Second, if you don’t have better sex with each other, she will never know, experience, snd understand that emotionally connected great sex (not boring vanilla) is right there in front of her with her husband. And that sex, if it’s done right, will be a thousand times better than any sex she could have with an AP.

And that’s why I’m still on here 10 years later.

This stuff fascinates. Duality of Man stuff. These topics always deep dive down a rabbit hole.

Isn’t that what we all want. The Ying and the Yang. A wild chick who is absolutely loyal. A Bad Boy who brings home the bacon and is loyal enough.

I always wondered what happened to Guinevere after she joined the convent.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 12:42 AM, Saturday, March 18th]

I do not for one second buy the whole "repressed" sexuality thing. Sure, she may have been raised in such a way to feel shame about her sexual desires, as I'm well aware that happens quite often in our society and I hate it. However, she found an outlet in her life to express those desires in a physical form, but she wants to put a genie back in the bottle now. That being said, I wouldn't stay with her for one more minute, because she has decided that she is going to live an inauthentic life and hide herself, which I think speaks to a deeper form of self-loathing and I ain't got time to be married to someone who will not be who they are but rather who they think they should be based on some very antiquated notion of "societal norms."

I would ask that you examine this more closely.

Why would a woman who enjoys oral sex try to strike it from her life? I can’t make it make sense. Personally, h and I like OS so much it’s rarely skipped for either of us. Why would I deny that for myself?

I would not consciously make that decision, especially not to be manipulative. And if something happened to him I would not want a relationship where OS was non-existent.

In this case, let’s say she started giving oral to AN during the affair and it has now continued. Would that act now be ruined under this premise the AP inspired something ? We have seen that happen too.

if she started this affair, much like I did, unconsciously seeking a different version of herself. Why would she not bring elements of what she learned about herself to her life moving forward?

It goes deeper than it sounds. I did bring aspects of who I was in the affair with me and incorporated them into my life. Not sexually, because what happened between ap and I was the vanilla while my husband got the adventures. But mentally there were lots of things I enjoy doing and being that I lost track of.

How do we know she loved it in the affair anyway? 10 sex sessions is far less telling than the amount of sex sessions with her Husband.

In the end it just boils down to what the others are saying, she now has opened a Pandora’s box and has to explore this since she has now inflicted this wound. If so, this can be remedied. If not, it’s kind of doomed, isn’t it?

AN seemed to have put a lot into the reconciliation, it seems this part might take some time. Only he can decide how much time he is willing to invest. Stating this can’t go on for one minute longer indicates coercion. This has to be dealt with more delicately than that. Not for the sake of the ws, but to preserve any chance of a healthier sex life moving forward. If she feels she has to do this or else, that’s not going to get her over this lack of enjoyment.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:01 AM, Saturday, March 18th]

Just as a thought exercise, next time this subject comes up, replace sex with romance.

But sex and romance are NOT the same. Not even close. Sex involves both physical and emotional vulnerability. I can't speak for everyone, but I know I've had sex I regretted, sex that made me feel less than, disappointed, demeaned even. It's not AT ALL the same as some kind of romantic gesture. There's nothing that compares to it. That's the very reason why we have so much trouble healing from sexual betrayal, isn't it? It's primal. We've put ourselves, body and mind into someone else's hands, and as BS's, seen our loyalty rewarded with perfidy. Don't think I haven't been there and done that.

The bottom line though is that there is no way to make sexual demands of a partner without entering into a transaction. I can't even think of a way to broach the subject without inadvertently invoking "the deal". It's absolutely understandable that people want to try, but when you find yourself washed up on the shore of "two plus two equals four", how can one demonize the WS who sees the transactional nature of it? It's right there under their nose. Even if a BS is successful, there's no way to know if the reason they're receiving a given sex act is because their WS desires it or because they don't want to lose their home sitch. What could they ever say to make you believe it? The whole subject is a trap.

Does it suck that the OW got something I didn't? Nope. Not for me it doesn't. I don't want the loser she was involved with. I hated that guy. I can't imagine ever wanting anything less. But let's say that I did want something, or more to the point, that I didn't want the original guy I married because our relationship wasn't cutting it in major ways. Why then would I be keen to reconcile? We're not talking about leaving the toilet seat up or even getting some much-needed therapy. We're talking about human sexuality and sexual preference, and for the purpose of discussion, whether it's okay to put pressure concerning those issues. I just don't think there are ANY circumstances which make that okay.

If the relationship was sexually incompatible before and it's sexually incompatible now, why would it magically become sexually compatible?

But puzzle, here, is how to do that while feeling emasculated. How can he stop comparing himself with AP while knowing that he will never get the kind of pleasure that AP got from her freely?

I don't want to get into a protracted t/j about "emasculation". Suffice to say that I believe men are capable of defining their own masculinity and don't need a woman to make value judgments on their worth. For BS's, the pain of betrayal very often results in these kind of anxiety-based comparisons with the AP and tormented self-esteem. Happens to women too. Happened to me. I got better.

In terms of getting pleasure, would those things actually please a guy if he knows that the WW isn't into it? I think most men (and women for that matter) would say 'no' to that.

I think a lot of it has to do with OPs sense of injustice. The sex of course yes, in snd of itself, but his feeling of injustice in that the AP got porn star sex snd he has always received, snd continues to receive, vanilla. It will take a lot of work to overcome this feeling.

I think there are elements being discounted. An affair in itself is stimulating. The Ap could be hideous but there is the secrecy, the adrenaline, and the dopamine. The risk, the fantasy world, and the character being played. It’s apples and oranges, and illogical.

Ok, we'll role play then.

I don't want to get into a protracted t/j about "emasculation". Suffice to say that I believe men are capable of defining their own masculinity and don't need a woman to make value judgments on their worth. For BS's, the pain of betrayal very often results in these kind of anxiety-based comparisons with the AP and tormented self-esteem. Happens to women too. Happened to me. I got better. 

In terms of getting pleasure, would those things actually please a guy if he knows that the WW isn't into it? I think most men (and women for that matter) would say 'no' to that.

Anything is possible of course, but you are not a man. I would say good luck getting over this under these circumstances with no changes from her. If OP can pull it off (be happy), great. I'd feel comfortable saying he'd be in the minority of men.

But she was into it....many times...just not with HIM. That is the point.

We do not know her feelings on oral. OP says she freely AND enthusiastically did these things with OM. Now before his WW supporters dismiss this, consider the you won comment. For him to win there had to be some thought he would loose despite what her sexual relationship with OM.

OP you are getting the minimum. You not only get vanilla sex, it has to be in the dark. In my opinion she is trying to fake it in hopes of making it.

Stop MC and get your self an IC. You need someone who has your best interest in mind. I would also advise to stop having sex with her. I also advise you to see an attorney and know your wife.

In terms of getting pleasure, would those things actually please a guy if he knows that the WW isn't into it? I think most men (and women for that matter) would say 'no' to that

.

She was into it as along as it was AP and it was affair. But now, she is not into it in her marriage and with her husband. Her pshycology could be anything here but this does not help OP to reconcile with her betrayal and redefine his masculinity and self worth. Remember, during affair she actively refused to do sexual acts with OP on APs order. This level of loyalty towards AP would emasculate any man. Now, she won't come out of her comfort sexual zone because its embarrassing and uncomfortable to her. Fuck with OPs needs and desries. Even discussing that topic is too much for her. Its like everybody is cornering her. They both definitely need a sex therapist.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 5:46 AM, Saturday, March 18th]

Ok... so I've now had some time to get myself back under control somewhat and reflect about what is going on here.

I've come to realize that the thing about this whole thing that bothers me the most is not that she had sex with AP, or even the types of sex she had with AP - it's that she WANTED to have that sex, she WANTED to do those things, willingly, enthusiastically and repeatedly. She WANTED to explore what a sex life with AP looked like.

That's what I want the most - for her to demonstrates that she WANTS to reconnect with me, that she is willing to reset, and explore what our sex life looks like post affair. Not just keep our sex life is in a nice little box, easily defined, static and unchanging, where she is the prim chaste wife acting as gatekeeper.

And to make it clear - I'm not looking for a carbon copy of WW and AP sex life. AP has a very impressive sexual imagination! I am not even sure I could ever even *want* some of the things they did together. OS is the least of things. If OS is in our future, then I don't just want OS, I want her to give me OS (or anything else) because she WANTS to give me OS (or anything else). I don't think I'm asking too much in this.

Her reference to OS was clearly an attempt to minimise the situation, and to try to deflect the responsibility for ending the marriage on me to be the trivial.

WW asked me what changed from the status quo we've established post D-day, and what has spurred these feelings in me. In this case, I guess only have myself to blame here.

A couple of weeks ago I opened the "Do you really need to know?" folder.

The one that contained the graphic, detailed descriptions of what they did each and every time. The naked selfies WW and AP took of themselves and sent to each other. the explicit things WW typed to AP in text and WhatsApp messages, which was so alien to me, if I didn't have physical proof of the affair, I would not have believe it could have been written by WW. References to the gifts of lingerie and toys they bought and used together, or the p--n they had watched and enjoyed together, with WW and AP exchanging "links" for the other to watch when discussing the next time they would be together. The messages show how the EA progressed. As AP would look like becoming bored with her/the A she would be forced to "up the ante" as she describes it to keep him on the hook. At first AP got off on corrupting the "goody two shoes" housewife, and then pushed to see how far she would go. She willingly went along with it.

This is really doing my noodle in. While dating, WW was adamant that p--n use on my part was a deal breaker for her. She (said) found it offensive and degrading, and while I slipped a few times pre A, I did the best a red blooded male could probably be expected under the circumstances. Here is evidence that her feelings on this only related to me, and not only was she consuming it with AP, but seeking it out to keep up the kink with AP? I can't even.....

My discovery of this information (I didn't need to look that hard - I've had it since D-day) has brought up something that happened post D-Day.

Soon after D-day, WW said she wanted to "purge" herself of anything related to AP. She had put together a small box containing the lingerie, toys and other mementos she had from that time, and after showing me the contents, asked if I'd agree to let her burn it all. To this day I wish I had said no.

That box contained everything that is feeling like red hot pokers burning into my soul right now, and I only have a fleeting memory of it and did not really have time to process. As long as I have known her, my WW's underwear could best be described as White/off white/beige/bone/cream t-shirt bras and sensible cotton panties. But that box contained lacy skimpy things in vivid colours, intimate keepsakes between them, and gifts he had given her. That almost destroyed me. I remember feeling that if lockdowns hadn't been a thing, I'd be out of there. But here I stayed.

I agree with all those who have suggested sex therapy, and I think that if I do decide to continue the R, that it will be a requirement for WW to actively participate in sessions, and show progress. I agree with posters, that the pre A situation of rationing and denying her sexual desires inevitably led to the A. A return to pre A sex for her merely resets those parameters leading to a probable repeat. Clearly the sexual denial of herself requires considerable effort.

I do not want AP and WW sex life for our M.

Quite frankly I find some of the things he did with/to her repulsive.

But I do want WW to WANT to explore what OUR sex life looks like going forward. Pre A is not good enough I'm afraid.

And to those who might have been wondering, Plan B means D. I have engaged legal representation which is ready if that becomes necessary.

But I do want WW to WANT to explore what OUR sex life looks like going forward. Pre A is not good enough I'm afraid.

Yes exactly this! Your wife doesn’t need to become your sex slave whilst you go through a list of sex acts performed with the AP and replicate them in your bedroom. But reconciliation is about self introspective work and being capable to become a better version of herself which should lead to fixing her view on sex and societal norms, through IC and a sex therapist if needed, she should address her secret desires and be able to bring some into her REAL life. At the moment it sounds like she’s happy to keep those desires secret, pretending she has two personalities, one in line with what she perceives as being the society norms and expectations and the other coming to life with strangers.

But sex and romance are NOT the same. Not even close. Sex involves both physical and emotional vulnerability.

Exactly. How would anyone accept that their spouse so readily and repeatedly displayed physical and emotional vulnerability with a stranger, however is incapable to attempt to display the same level of vulnerability with them?

I get it. I grew up with a much older brother and I have heard how some young men talk about women. I’ve even been repeatedly told that men only want one thing, to USE you and then discard you like a whore. I’ve also struggled with my sex life when I did start having sex because I thought any act beyond missionary position would automatically label me as a slut and that any man asking for anything else is disrespectful.

My brother actually cheated on his wife and when I asked him how could he do that he replied: "there are certain sex acts a man wants which he cannot do with his wife if he respects her". (I still don’t know if he was messing with my brain because he couldn’t accept the idea that his little sister would have sex or if he was truly this narrow minded).

So I totally get where this woman is coming from. But that is exactly the area she needs to fix. Not by forcefully starting to perform oral sex and whatever else that list may contain, but by addressing the fact that her sexual desires are not something to be embarrassed about and kept hidden, that she is safe with her spouse and can bring those into the bedroom without anyone labelling her in any way.

Only through emotional and physical vulnerability with a man I TRUSTED I realised that my sexuality and desires are normal and healthy.

The betrayal in this case is even more terrible from my point of view, what she’s saying is that she offered complete vulnerability to her AP, trusted him with her physical and emotional safety but she isn’t capable to do so with her husband.

I will repeat so it isn’t misunderstood: it isn’t about going through the list of sex acts and replicate them. It is about showing the same emotional and physical vulnerability to her husband and work together on identifying what their sex life can be, the acts she truly enjoys WITH her husband, rather than decide to ignore her alter ego and go back to missionary position in the dark, keeping her desires hidden again.

This is what made her unsafe the first time. That isn’t growth, that is just another affair in the making for next time she decides that perhaps there are some other acts she wants to try and as she isn’t able to be sexually vulnerable with her spouse, she’ll find another stranger to do so.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 10:12 AM, Saturday, March 18th]

The sad thing here is she knows how the sex with her AP excited and pleased him. How the reaction of seeing her in the lingerie put a smile on his face. How the variety of sex and exploring can be an adventure. She has the skills to do the same for AN, yet she won’t push herself to please him.

AN has been very clear he isn’t looking for deviant sex. He just wants what probably 90% of the posters here are getting rather than the 35% he gets.

I agree sex therapy would be useful. I’m hoping for his sake she would agree to go. If she refused that, then ballgame over.

I find her whole line of thinking that he would throw away a marriage for a bj repulsive after what she did. Like what she did wasn’t so bad.

I don’t know too much about sex therapy, but my gut tells me that’s not the solution.

WW used sex to control OP and the M dynamic pre A, used it as a control vehicle during the A to keep AP interested, and is now using sex again to control OP and the M dynamic.

OP is exactly right. He wants his WW to want to have meaningful, fun, exciting sex with him. He wants to be wanted. He wanted this pre A. He’s not requesting something post A that he wasn’t asking for pre A. However, what he accepted pre A is no longer acceptable to him. He wants to stay married. We all say that the old M is dead after an A, and a new one needs to be created. OP wants this new M. WW wants the old M. I’m sorry, that simply isn’t fair to a betrayed.

I agree that OP can’t demand the sex he wants in a transactional way. His WW is now miffed that he has now changed what he wants in his M sex life from what he accepted as the status quo post A. So now he’s not allowed to evolve his thought process wrt his WWs A? Aren’t WS’ supposed to always be open to discussing the A, working on solutions to new issues that a BH brings up, 2, 5, 20, 50 years after the A?

This is a one sided equation. WW isn’t even willing to work on it, compromise, or budge. If this wasn’t about sex, there was never an affair, simply a very significant marital issue where the husband wants to work on a compromise and solution to meet his needs, and his wife says no, absolutely not, but if I do compromise I will resent you for it, how would that sit with any husband, or any spouse for that matter?

WW used sex to control OP and the M dynamic pre A, used it as a control vehicle during the A to keep AP interested, and is now using sex again to control OP and the M dynamic.

So we don't have our own feelings about sex, about when, where, or how we want to do it? We don't have wants and needs of our own? We women just use sex to 'control'?

If a woman isn't having sex or certain sex with a guy, there is a reason--one that pertains to us, our own thoughts and feelings about ourselves, not about you. Shocking, I know.

Sociopaths control with sex. Is she personality disordered? The rest of us are actual people with actual feelings and reasons--some of them buried deep--for what we don't want to do. She needs to figure out what they are.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:12 PM, Saturday, March 18th]