SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

" you are gonna throw it all away just because I don't give you oral?"

The nerve, the audacity, the unmitigated gall to say something like that. You had vanilla sex with her your entire marriage (despite you clearly wanting to do more)...but you accepted her position on the matter and never threatened to divorce. Clearly this is much more than I need a BJ.

you are gonna throw it all away just because I don't give you oral?

The only response to this is: "No, you threw it all away to give another man oral... and everything else he could imagine."

Then the kicker.. the what is it you want from me….. I know she was using other words… like asking about my desired frequency, seeking parameters for my desired sex live with her…… but all I could hear in my head is

"what’s your price?"

So, you see how easily this issue becomes transactional. What else would she think? The conflict is about the sex she had with AP, sex that she has told you that she feels shamed and degraded by, and how she doesn't perform similarly for you. I think there are some people here who would have you believe that you're being somehow manipulated, but to what purpose? How is it a "manipulation" to tell your spouse that you don't want to do certain sexual acts and that you also don't want to get divorced? As soon as those two issues get connected, what other conclusion is there to draw?

There's been quite a bit of discussion about how your WW is "repressed", which suggests that her feelings are wrong or somehow invalid. The bottom line though is that we can't dictate other people's sexual desires. That doesn't mean there's no possibility of growth or change. It just means that she feels how she feels right now and that change isn't guaranteed.

I think that sometimes we look at R as a catalyst for changing more than just the cheating in our WS. It's only fair, right? The marriage has been broken and we're reevaluating our contentment within the union in order to decide whether or not we want to continue. Add to that, the behavior our WS illustrated while in the affair, more attentive, more sexual, more energetic, etc., and we SEE that they're capable of more than what we've been getting at home. It seems like the opportune time to either get everything we want or get out, right?

Here's the thing though, and I'll pivot to my own situation in example... I had thirty-five years of history with my WS. Who he was during his affairs was NOT who he really is. During his affairs, he was a guy with a big bag of masks, and he used those masks to round up the attention, admiration, and sex that he felt would validate and excite him. After dday and working through the issues, it wasn't "bag-o-masks" guy who survived the process though. It was the guy I married plus a new set of values and boundaries... and THAT was all I wanted. I didn't want a new and improved spouse. All I wanted was the sweet guy I married and to be emotionally attuned like we once were.

Perhaps one thing to put under consideration is how happy/unhappy you were with your WS before the infidelity. Maybe that's the tie-breaker. Did you like her as a person? Did you respect her? Did you enjoy spending time with her? You know, things like that. IME, we don't get some upgraded version of our WS in R. If we're lucky, very lucky, we get the person we fell in love with back, and if we're doing it right, that person will have a new dedication tp their personal values system and the confidence to maintain appropriate boundaries.

Cham,respectfully, many R BS say precisely that. That they did get improved versions of their WS...and not just, "Hey, I promise not the cheat anymore...no, really this time". They had to compromise much less in their relationship and that was a big (vital) part of a successful R.

Of course, you can't force these things. But in a case like this, as a man, I can completely understand the...no thanks, GTFO mentality and I think the majority of people would agree.

I think there are some people here who would have you believe that you're being somehow manipulated, but to what purpose? How is it a "manipulation" to tell your spouse that you don't want to do certain sexual acts and that you also don't want to get divorced? As soon as those two issues get connected, what other conclusion is there to draw?

CT, if you look at what his WW is doing in context, it does reek of manipulation. She is unilaterally setting the terms of reconciliation. She came up with the plan with her an IC about what is going to be discussed and in what time frame. Her approach to sex is very similar to her emotional approach to OP generally-- she sets up the walls and says to her husband, "You have to stay in this box."

It's clear that in the past, OP wasn't thrilled about his wife's limitations in the bedroom but was happy to accommodate them because he was generally happy in the marriage. But then his wife destroyed the status quo; therefore, it is controlling and manipulative of her to accuse OP of being a sex-crazed pervert because he's no longer willing to stay in the box and put his wants and needs on the shelf.

I agree that it's not conducive to a long-term healthy relationship to pressure partners into participating in sexual acts that they don't want to do. I'm not saying that she should resign herself to being a sex doll; in fact, in my very first response to this thread, I said that even if she did all things she did with OP that she did with her OP, it might be triggering if OP ends up imagining what she was doing with AP or questioning whether she's actually enjoying herself.

But if she's serious about reconciliation, at the very least, she needs to be willing to step outside her comfort zone and eliminate some of the barriers to both physical and emotional intimacy that she's created with him. She should also responsibility for the acts she did with her AP, instead of disassociating herself from her behavior with third-person pronouns.

At the very least, she shouldn't make her husband feel like a creep because he wants something other than missionary in the dark.

CT, if you look at what his WW is doing in context, it does reek of manipulation. She is unilaterally setting the terms of reconciliation.

I'm sorry, but I don't see it as manipulation or "setting terms". There was an established norm in this couple's marriage. The WW exceeded that norm with the AP. From her perspective, the behavior was outrageous and out of character. The OP, I think, has done a very good job of representing her position on this and there's no reason for us to think otherwise. His are the boots on the ground after all.

I do believe that people have a legitimate right to decide what their sexual comfort level is and that, so long as they aren't injuring others in the commission of fulfilling their sexual desires, they don't deserve to be harassed about it. It's either to our tastes or it isn't as sexual partners. Not everyone enjoys the sensation of having someone's genitals in their mouth, and that's a valid position to have. It doesn't matter to me if they did it in the past or if they did it with someone else. Sex is too intimate to be held to other people's expectations, and as we've seen so often, the WS often regrets their choices to exceed their own comfort level while they were cheating.

For the WS, I imagine this situation looks like "two plus two equals four". The continuation of the marriage plus her sexual behavior with the AP equals giving blow jobs if she wants to stay married. We, as BS's, will naturally see more nuance than that, but the bare bones of the "deal" remain, a transaction.

Everyone has a right to autonomy, including the BS who decides that they're not going to accept less than what the WS gave the OP. I don't think Aspect North is saying "blowjobs or else." He's expressing to her that he's upset that she gave more to another man, and now doesn't want to share it with him.

As BSs, a lot of us are all about reclaiming our position as #1 with our WS. If WS shared more with the OP that they're willing to share with us, that's a dealbreaker for a lot of us. It would be for me, anyway. I didn't want that bitch to know or get ANYTHING that I didn't know or get, down to the tiniest details. And this is a big detail. Big. She can't unring that bell.

I really don't think that Mrs. AN is intentionally manipulating AN. I think all of her actions D-Day and beyond are about trying to be in control and prevent her mistakes from blowing up her world. Hopefully, she's going to learn that she isn't in control of AN. And she really shouldn't want to be, if she wants a healthy marriage. But I don't think she's to that point yet. She's still in crisis mode.

I'll say it again: I think a sex therapist is in order. But first, I think that everyone needs to take a breath and a break for a short while. It's too charged right now. AN needs to chew on this and figure out what he wants. He might be alright accepting vanilla sex in order to maintain the rest of his life with Mrs. AN. Or maybe he'll decide that her agreeing to sex therapy is his boundary. Or maybe he'll decide that he doesn't even want to deal with that at all and wants a clean break.

ChamomileTea, I do wonder if you are observing that your positions on here, the way they are being read at least, are an extremely tough sell to most of the men who posted on this thread.

The fact that WW did all these things sexually with AP that she is not willing to do sexually with BH, is something that would be completely unacceptable to me and apparently, completely unacceptable to AspectNorth. Full Stop. And it is an additional layer and level beyond physical infidelity.

Well-said, @Sacred Soul Sister!

ChamomileTea:

so long as they aren't injuring others in the commission of fulfilling their sexual desires, they don't deserve to be harassed about it.

She did injure somebody (i.e her husband) while fulfilling her and her APs sexual desires. And that is the issue here. She fulfilled her sexual desires. She fulfilled her APs sexual desires. But she won't fulfill her husband's sexual desires. This makes husband feel emasculated. He cant force her to do things she doesn't want. And I don't think he is pressing her to do things she doesn't want. OPs issue, here, is his confusion regarding how to not feel emasculated by this. Of course, he wants to reconcile with her and save his marriage. But puzzle, here, is how to do that while feeling emasculated. How can he stop comparing himself with AP while knowing that he will never get the kind of pleasure that AP got from her freely?

I want you see this whole issue from his end and suggest what he could do to get out of this pain.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:08 PM, Friday, March 17th]

It's either to our tastes or it isn't as sexual partners. Not everyone enjoys the sensation of having someone's genitals in their mouth, and that's a valid position to have.

Sure, but if the issue was WW didn't want to put anyone's genitals in her mouth we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I do wonder if you are observing that your positions on here, the way they are being read at least, are an extremely tough sell to most of the men who posted on this thread.

Just want to draw a line in the sand that this is not a gendered thing, as a woman I feel the same. Just don't want to push stereotypes of either gender!

AspectNorth: Just as a thought exercise, next time this subject comes up, replace sex with romance.

A wife has long come to terms that her husband just isn't the type of guy who is going to make grand romantic gestures. He doesn't make a fuss over Valentine's Day. He buys her scented candles for her birthday every year, doesn't say "I love you" that often, never brought her flowers, etc. It's disappointing at times, but overall, she thought he was a good spouse and good man, so she didn't make a fuss out of it.

Then Dday happens. BW learns that her WH wrote reams of effusive love poetry for his OW. He bought her lavish gifts, left her notes, and made her mix tapes. He also regularly took OW to Michelin-starred restaurants... during the same year that he took his BW to Cracker Barrel for their anniversary.

Now they're sitting in MC and WH wants to reconcile. BW says, "I want you to win me over and romance me the way you did for your OW. I don't want another scented candle for my birthday; this year, I want a necklace. If you can't do that, I don't know if I want to reconcile."

To this the WH replies, "You would leave me over a necklace? Ugh, you're just like every other woman... all you care about are fancy gifts!"

It's great that so many posters are concerned about your Ww, I thought I may try looking after you. Your wife does not need a sex therapist, she didn't need one to do this things with OM. Her issue is clearly with you.

It’s unfortunate what happens every time we see this scenario it devolves into a debate.

No one here is looking after the ww. The man has put a lot into reconciliation so far. His biggest obstacle is the sex issue.

Many suggested a sex therapist because he needs one if he wants to continue that path. Perhaps the biggest indicator is he came back frustrated with the conversation about it and how transactional it became. She sees this entirely differently than he does.

Women and men do not see sex the same way, we may all have it and enjoy it but biologically and how we are socially engineered make us different animals.

Men stating what the ww feels would be as bad as us trying to tell this man how he feels. No one is doing that, we end up instead trying to explain women to men and it devolves rather than supports.

A sex therapist will help them navigate this if he decides to continue towards reconciliation. It will help illustrate the wound for her, it will help them communicate in a less charged way to try and tackle this problem together.

No one would blink an eye if he wanted to get a divorce. No one. It’s always a valid answer. Respectfully, there are many of you have no idea what it takes to get to that goal. And none of us know whether the goal is worthy for another couple.

Only the poster will know when to call it until then, he will receive help from either direction. We don’t have to debate it or lob things like we "are looking after his ww." The poster will know what resonates and what doesn’t.

Let’s not devolve into end fighting just because you don’t like someone else’s advice. The beauty of this site is we all walked different paths and collectively we offer a buffet for posters to choose from. None of us have one ounce of ill intent in our efforts, just differing perspectives.

Edited to show what I was responding to.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:50 PM, Friday, March 17th]

hikingout : How does women in general see sex? How is it different from men's view?

A lot of our attitudes are shaped by our own social engineering. Women and men grow up with differing messages about sex from their family, peers, even television.

Just a few examples;

More is placed on women’s virtue. There are names for women that don’t exist for men if they have too much sex with too many people. We almost guard ourselves against rape and sexual abuse because we are taught that way. Even though boys are victims of these things it’s not part of the biggest discussion.

Men are brought up with attitudes about sex being part of their masculinity and having conquests. They tend to look at sex with scarcity while women often see it with over abundance.

Men and women both enjoy sex most with someone they love and feel comfortable with. We have a lot of similarities.

But in reality the divorce rates for when women have an affair outweigh divorce rates when it’s a man who cheats. There are differences and attitudes in our culture that add to this conversation and we can’t pretend they don’t exist.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:20 PM, Friday, March 17th]

Aspect North:

Sorry you find yourself here. I want to add just a couple thoughts. Moving forward continue to work with your IC. I also support seeing a good sex therapist with your WW if you feel you want to continue to resolve your understandable confusion and resentment with her sexual behavior during the A. I think you have presented your WW’s side ver clearly. She is ashamed of her sexual behavior with the AP. Repeating those acts with you brings her shame. But she has to understand and come to terms with the pain and resentment her acts have caused you.

Actually, reading here over the years, your WW’s actions with the AP are not unheard of, being more sexually free with the AP than her BH. She has explained her motivations. This is also not unheard of: to up the sexual ante to keep the ego boosts, the adoration, and the fantasy going. The sex is the currency to keep the AP interested and the ego boost coming. Now some will say her actions were motivated because she didn’t like sex with you, or it was only about the sex. But the same actions cited to support that opinion can also support your WW’s explanation . You have seen several differing comments on the topic. As for me, I am a BH. I have no idea the motivation of your WS. Any opinion I would offer is a total guess. I don’t know your WW.

Continue to take care of you. You deserve a fulfilling sex life in your M. If you choose to continue working toward recovering your M, you and your WW will need to come to agreement. And she has to understand and appreciate your pain, and work to help you heal. Good luck.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:21 PM, Friday, March 17th]

First they talked about doing it for 3-4 months texting and sexting and pics until the sexual tension reached a crescendo.

Then the PA begins and they do it, then about two weeks go by, and they do it again, and then they do it again, then another two weeks go by of thinking about it, sexting about it, aaand, they do it again, two weeks and they do it again, two more weeks and they do it again, two weeks and they do it again, another two weeks and they do it again, another two weeks and they do it again, two more weeks and they do it AGAIN, and AGAIN, sometimes in the marital bed, then two more weeks go by WITH PLENTY OF TIME TO DEEPLY CONSIDER WHAT SHE’S DOING, the consequences, the shame, the mutual destruction, self disgust and disgrace and….she does it AGAIN! She effing does it a tenth time! Then…

COVID PANDEMIC SEXUAL LOCKDOWN.

All activity apparently stops.

Side note: It’s interesting how cheaters don’t blink an eye about breaking marital vows, risk taking and contracting STDs, but dutifully adhere to quarantine guidelines.

Now, after no-limits sex and sexting over 143 days, she’s draws the line. NOW she’s come to her senses. She’s now feeling like a whore, degraded and traumatized by all the shameless sex.

This THIS would be hard for me to get my mind around. I could understand a brief foray into boundary crossing sex, perhaps coerced, manipulated, vulnerable, caught up in the moment, under the influence, temporary insanity, but 10 times over 143 days with progressive escalation and plenty of missed opportunities to off ramp…

It begs the question.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 10:43 PM, Friday, March 17th]

A wife has long come to terms that her husband just isn't the type of guy who is going to make grand romantic gestures. He doesn't make a fuss over Valentine's Day. He buys her scented candles for her birthday every year, doesn't say "I love you" that often, never brought her flowers, etc. It's disappointing at times, but overall, she thought he was a good spouse and good man, so she didn't make a fuss out of it.

Then Dday happens. BW learns that her WH wrote reams of effusive love poetry for his OW. He bought her lavish gifts, left her notes, and made her mix tapes. He also regularly took OW to Michelin-starred restaurants... during the same year that he took his BW to Cracker Barrel for their anniversary.

Now they're sitting in MC and WH wants to reconcile. BW says, "I want you to win me over and romance me the way you did for your OW. I don't want another scented candle for my birthday; this year, I want a necklace. If you can't do that, I don't know if I want to reconcile."

To this the WH replies, "You would leave me over a necklace? Ugh, you're just like every other woman... all you care about are fancy gifts!"

This.

I was in this situation with the only difference that WH was as lousy with OW as he was with me, ie. he didn’t buy her gifts or send her flowers.

Nevertheless post dday I had this train of thought: I’ve compromised and gave up romantic gestures in my marriage because I was getting something very valuable, to me, in return, loyalty and a faithful spouse. He did not see the value in our relationship even with said compromise and considered it worthless, why would I accept the same agreement terms when these have be broken?

I don’t believe your WW wishes to manipulate you necessarily, I do believe though that she has a victim mindset: the bad boy entered her life and made her perform oral sex, she got to experience her bad girl fantasies and now she wants to go back to being the immaculate woman again, thank you very much.

That is her right by the way, I truly believe you should respect her choice, but I don’t see how you would find a solution to remain together. I personally could not go back to missionary position in the dark (unless that was not a compromise for you and you were indeed 100% happy with that type of sex, never wanting more).

For me reconciliation is about growth in both WSes and BSes. I would never be able to accept the same offer of a relationship as pre affair believing the real WS was the one pre dday. The real him cheated. Sure, I can take into consideration who he was pre affair to decide if he’s worthy of remaining in my life overall but if he wants to remain married he needs to experience growth. Growth comes with considering my needs and wants too, not expecting me to only consider his.

I used to say "my husband is rubbish at buying me gifts but hey, I can’t complain otherwise". Well…. Once he cheated I couldn’t say that anymore. That doesn’t mean that he is 100% a great gift giver now, it means that we discussed it and met in the middle, he knows that never again would taking me shopping for my birthday be acceptable (the lazy option) but I am willing to spell out what I would like to be gifted in advance.

The problem here isn’t really that your wife won’t give you BJs, the problem is that she is not even considering your desires at all, is not willing to discuss it and is trying to blame YOU for divorcing her for BJs.

She had no issues doing so with a stranger. Yes, I get the psychology of it, however she could have stopped at several points if she truly is finding those sex acts so disgusting. She didn’t stop. She did them for herself because she wanted to experience them and feel like the bad girl. But she has no desire to do them for you, or better said with you. For me that’s telling the usual story of an ego centric cheater who is willing to go to huge lengths to get their fix but cares very little of their BSs wants and desires.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 10:52 PM, Friday, March 17th]

This THIS would be hard for me to get my mind around. I could understand a brief foray into boundary crossing sex, perhaps coerced, manipulated, vulnerable, caught up in the moment, under the influence, temporary insanity, but 10 times over 143 days with progressive escalation and plenty of missed opportunities to off ramp…

It begs the question.

I understand what you are saying.

I think there are elements being discounted. An affair in itself is stimulating. The Ap could be hideous but there is the secrecy, the adrenaline, and the dopamine. The risk, the fantasy world, and the character being played. It’s apples and oranges, and illogical.

hikingout: I have a few questions regarding what you wrote to my question, but I don't want threadjack. If possible, I would start a new thread solely for this topic. Anyway, thank you for answering my question.