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Newest Member: May28

Wayward Side :
12 Years after D day .....

Topic is Sleeping.
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 Ragab (original poster member #82425) posted at 10:37 AM on Wednesday, December 7th, 2022

Survrus
I have darker things I came up with for my own situation, but I'll not mention them

😏😉👆 as he is in Canada maybe somebody here know the Canadian mafia 🤣😂

Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.... lately more stones than diamonds.

posts: 60   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2022   ·   location: South Africa
id 8768479
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 3:56 PM on Wednesday, December 7th, 2022

Ragab... Hang in there. You are doing good and seem to be on the right track.

I know I have given your husband and you a lot of reading material... "Cheating in a Nutshell", "Not Just Friends", "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair", plus the Healing Library here at Surviving Infidelity. I know it is overwhelming.

However, (and you just knew that a However was coming didn't you smile ) I am not finished. Since he is consumed by Anger even 12 years out, there is another book that just maybe he could benefit from. This is a book on Trauma and PTSD. It is called "The Body Keeps The Score" by Bessel Van Der Kolk, M.D. It takes awhile to get through it... a bunch of medical stuff, etc. He cites numerous sources for his material.

He should probably wait to read this after he reads the others, because it is kind of difficult in places to get through... or at least it was for me.

Take care and keep posting.

posts: 280   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8768499
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DobleTraicion ( member #78414) posted at 5:55 PM on Wednesday, December 7th, 2022

Hey Ragab, so glad you found SI. This place IS amazing. I came here as a former BH looking for more answers concerning a decades old betrayal and have found much wisdom in the experience and input of others. I am currently wrestling with the cognitive dissonance concept and have found a lot of great insight here.

Youve already received excellent input and I want to encourage you to write that timeline to the best of your ability. Take time in doing so. Make it as thorough as possible. It will help fill the gaps-turned-potholes-turned-canyons on his mind. Not knowing as complete a truth as possible is torturous, I know whereof I speak.

There are a three things that youve touched on that Id like to speak to.

#1 His rage.

his words: Prince charming who got what he wanted, driving off on his horse with all the "bragging rights' ' – never to face anything. Currently AP is married and from what we could gather and live "the live" aboard, while we are still stuck. BS "believe" if he can just hurt him as much as he was hurt, that he must also experience how it is to suffer, to lose everything that matters – EVERY WAKING MOMENT.

He has days that he just gets lost in his head where he continues "fantasizing" about justice. Not a nice picture, blood, and guts - The more horrific, crueler the better.

He doesn't want to write a letter to the AP and burn the letter, he wants to burn the AP and cut him up in pieces

I sooooo relate to your BHs anger and thirst for payback. It burned brightly in my soul for at least a decade. Its common. I neednt have worried, though, as the karma bus completely flattened my first wife's AP who was also my ex best friend. I will also say that it was not healthy for me to ruminate on and feed those flames of hatred & revenge, and, like you, we did not handle the days and years post affair well at all. It is very very hard to deal with though and anger is the nuclear pile of the emotional spectrum. I hope he gets some coaching (therapy) to help get some tools onboard to deal with it because it exacts a severe toll physically and emotionally.

The next two issues cause many BSs to run screaming into the night (figuratively).

#2 The "Love" conundrum

I love and always loved my husband, and he keeps on asking why he was not enough, why did it happen, why the AP why why why and I found 99% of the answers.

I heard this. Ive read variations of this from WSs dozens and dozens of times. It still does not compute and Im sure its the same with your BH. It puts our brains/souls on tilt.

Basically this, how do you "love" and then proceed to do the most unloving, most hurtful thing you can do this side of murder to your betrothed? You need to dig deep here. Do you still believe you "loved" him while in your affair? If so, why? If not, why not? Has your concept of truly "loving" your spouse changed since 12 years ago? If so, how? Is it possible that prior to 12 years ago you may have both mouthed the same word "love" to each other, but meant vastly different things? If true, how were they different. I cannot tell you how important it is to nail this issue down with as much detail as possible. Same goes for the next topic.....

#3 The value and meaning of sex

I never had the A for the sex, I wanted the attention, I wanted validation, the compliments and I allowed the sex as I believed that if I did not allow the sex then the above would stop. He doesn't understand that it was not about the AP it was about me and it could have been anybody. How do I get him to understand this

Here too is a mile wide chasm in understanding and perception many times.

To be fair, your descrition is very commonly related by many WWs, giving sex for ego strokes. Totally transactional. Many do say that emotional attachments developed as well, but not all. This too (it was "just" sex) blows the circuits of many BSs. To your question, "How do I get him to understand this?", you are going to have to answer deeper questions for him, If hes like me and many other BHs, he attaches much to sexual intimacy with your spouse. I, like other BHs, view sexual intimacy as a validation of love. As a seal of the pair bond. Special. Reserved. Exclusive. To hear our erstwhile beloved say it was given up for kibbles is truly soul shattering.

So....questions for you. Can you further describe your over all view of sex and its importance 12 years ago? Why did you see it that way then? How do you view it now? If it has changed (hopefully it has), why and how has it changed?

In ALL of this, you will need to use a finer tooth comb than you ever have in order to fill in the gaps in his mind and bring further healing. The devil is most definitely in the details.

Can these issues be dealt with in such a way that paves the way for greater healing to take place? I believe so and encourage you to keep posting here. Itd be great if your H did the same so we could help support him directly.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:59 PM, Friday, December 9th]

"You'd figure that in modern times, people wouldn't feel the need to get married if they didn't agree with the agenda"

~ lascarx

posts: 296   ·   registered: Mar. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: South
id 8768512
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survrus ( member #67698) posted at 5:37 AM on Thursday, December 8th, 2022

Ragab,

One important detail is to give all the details your BH wants or suspect to him, especially the sexual ones.

If you are minimizing or omitting and your BH finds out it will reset your recovery to zero again.

Absolute truth is the minimum needed to start the recovery clock. What is often said is that it takes 2 to 5 years from that time.

Did you show the list of revenge ideas to BH?

I do get why your BH would not want to send a letter to OM since he does not want to tip him off.

If you didn't get tested for STDs please do so now sometimes diseases like syphilis can be asymptomatic and take years to become symptomatic and HPV can cause cancers. So unless he has no contact you are both at risk.

posts: 1477   ·   registered: Nov. 1st, 2018   ·   location: USA
id 8768608
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 Ragab (original poster member #82425) posted at 2:11 PM on Thursday, December 8th, 2022

I am busy writing the timeline. It was so long ago I can not remember the detail for instance how many times we had coffee before I went to his house the first time etc....

Then I am also reading and reading and reading and more reading.

Just trying to absorb everything.

I slipped up again today 🙈
He is just so impatient with everything and everybody. It is difficult for me to keep calm.
But I will hopefully succeed one day.

Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.... lately more stones than diamonds.

posts: 60   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2022   ·   location: South Africa
id 8768639
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3yrsout ( member #50552) posted at 6:05 PM on Thursday, December 8th, 2022

Re: how you can love someone and cheat.

My WH never told me this really, but I needed to hear this from him…..

Love from a wayward spouse is like getting a smile from a sociopath. It’s not functional love. It’s not real love. The WS has no idea what love really is. They do not understand the concept.

posts: 752   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2015
id 8768674
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WishidleftHer ( member #78703) posted at 3:30 AM on Friday, December 9th, 2022

No stop sign so I'll chime in.

In my case I thought about hurting the AP, but realized it would only hurt my kids and me.
As it turned out he got more than he bargained for. He was married with three kids and his BW was pregnant with number four. He and WW worked together and because there was a no-fraternization policy, he lost his job, his medical insurance and worst of all his retirement when they fired him. I couldn't have done better.
I do feel sorry for his BW. She didn't deserve what she got.

Me: BH 73. Her: WW 68 Dday over 35 years ago and still feels like yesterday.

posts: 104   ·   registered: Apr. 25th, 2021   ·   location: Capital district, NY
id 8768749
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 Ragab (original poster member #82425) posted at 5:41 AM on Friday, December 9th, 2022

First thank you, all even the BS for your input and for opening up on how you truly feel and how we (WS) make you feel. I am reading something and feel, yes this is it. The next post is - sorry I am not accepting, you need to dig deeper. These last 2 weeks made me do more soul-surging than I did in my whole life together.

3yrsout ( member) posted at 6:05 PM on Thursday, December 8th, 2022
Re: how you can love someone and cheat.

My WH never told me this really, but I needed to hear this from him…..

Love from a wayward spouse is like getting a smile from a sociopath. It’s not functional love. It’s not real love. The WS has no idea what love really is. They do not understand the concept.

Regarding above,
Maybe there are WS that can explain to me, how it is possible for me to be with H for 16 years, and have 2 kids with him (him being my first- and only) but when I was at a "bad place - let's call it that for this conversation" What happened to that love, did I never love him? Can love be switched on and off?

Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.... lately more stones than diamonds.

posts: 60   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2022   ·   location: South Africa
id 8768758
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DobleTraicion ( member #78414) posted at 3:31 PM on Friday, December 9th, 2022

Regarding above,
Maybe there are WS that can explain to me, how it is possible for me to be with H for 16 years, and have 2 kids with him (him being my first- and only) but when I was at a "bad place - let's call it that for this conversation" What happened to that love, did I never love him? Can love be switched on and off?

Ragab, I relate so much to these questions and, Im sure, your BH does as well. There is a thread I started over in the General forum where I try to get some more clarity on this whole concept of being "in/of two minds at the same time". This subject has tormented for years. Some posters were good enough to pitch in and help me out. It may be of benefit to you and your BH (you be the judge). There isnt really consensus per se, but there are a number of great insights that may prove helpful. Here is the link:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/658091/cognitive-dissonance-vs-duplicity-/?ap=1

"You'd figure that in modern times, people wouldn't feel the need to get married if they didn't agree with the agenda"

~ lascarx

posts: 296   ·   registered: Mar. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: South
id 8768873
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 4:36 PM on Friday, December 9th, 2022

I say as strongly as I possible can that you need to stay NC with OM.

That means: spend no time and no energy on revenge. Every one of the suggestions above breaks NC, either by actually connecting with him or by breaking internal NC.

It's easy for your H to get revenge on om. It's very difficult and maybe impossible to do so without hurting himself.

You have to heal you. You're the only one who knows what you need to heal. Likewise, your H has to heal himself. If he wants revenge, that's a problem IMO, but it's his problem to solve. Giving up a desire for revenge is part of healing.

You keep yourself NC, because breaking NC will hurt you and delay your healing.

*****

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 29955   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8768921
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BearlyBreathing ( member #55075) posted at 8:40 PM on Friday, December 9th, 2022

On the topic of how can a WS love their BS while in the A? So so many come here and swear they never stopped loving their spouse.
Some things to ponder:
* Love is often defined as an action, not a feeling. If you are doing non-loving actions- like having an affair - that it you are not loving your spouse. What is your definition of love?

* There are many forms of love. Family love. Romantic love. Crush/limerent love. Friend love. Love for pets or music or non-human things. Did you move your romantic/partner love from your BS and relegate him to family love or friend love? And give your romantic love to your AP? This allows you, in your mind, to say you still loved your BS. But it wasn’t the marriage/romantic love and they know that. What "kind" of love were you feeling and acting toward your BH? If you can be honest here with yourself, I think you will see how you performed some mental gymnastics to prove to yourself that you never stopped loving your BH because you changed the definition or type of love and downgraded his to a different kind of fondness. Not the true romantic love you are saying you had.

Best of luck as you continue your journey. I hope you both find peace and authenticity.

Me: BS 57 (49 on d-day)Him: *who cares ;-) *. D-Day 8/15/2016 LTA. Kinda liking my new life :-)

**horrible typist, lots of edits to correct. :-/ **

posts: 5985   ·   registered: Sep. 10th, 2016   ·   location: Northern CA
id 8768976
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 5:07 PM on Saturday, December 10th, 2022

Hi Ragab,

I have gone back and re-read your posts. I was looking for something and I did not see it... could have overlooked it.

A question came to my mind and you do not have to answer it if it is uncomfortable. I would understand. I will give you my reason for the question.

How did your husband find out about your affair? Did he not know you were having an affair until you voluntarily went to him and confessed. Or, did he find out on his own and confront you?

The reason I asked is because I have seen here and other infidelity websites that there seems to be a better chance for reconciliation if the Wayward voluntarily confesses their affair when the Betrayed had no idea an affair was happening. I don't know if that is statistically possible to prove or not.

My thinking is that if the Betrayed finds out on his own then he might feel a sense of abandonment... the Wayward has already mentally left the marriage, and that just exacerbates the situation. In my own situation, I was stationed overseas when I got those two letters from my buddies back home telling me what my fiancé had been seeing doing with another man. I remember going out that night with a couple of my buddies to a bar and getting wasted. I remember saying several times something like "Why the hell couldn't she have just told me she did not want to marry before she did something like that?" I really felt alone and abandoned.

Two good things at the time. #1 is the military keep me busy every day and I did not have time to wallow in self-pity. Plus I had the support of my buddies 24/7. #2 is that by the time I got back home she had already moved and I never saw her again. I don't know what I would have been like if I saw her in person. Those two things probably helped me recover faster than others.

Best regards.

posts: 280   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8769059
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 7:05 PM on Thursday, December 15th, 2022

Hi Ragab,

I have seen you posting on other forums. I was wondering how you are doing? Are things clearer than when you first posted here?

Best regards.

posts: 280   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8769603
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 Ragab (original poster member #82425) posted at 4:42 PM on Friday, December 16th, 2022

lrpprl
Hi. Not sure what youbsaw but I am not on another forum. I hope that Ragab is making better progress than I am.
Honestly, I am reading the suggested material. I 5hinked I screwed up any chance I had for R. I ticked, all the "do NOT do" boxes. Just struggle with the old habbit of self pity.

Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.... lately more stones than diamonds.

posts: 60   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2022   ·   location: South Africa
id 8769812
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 Ragab (original poster member #82425) posted at 4:56 PM on Friday, December 16th, 2022

lrpprl
Not sure how to answer. Myself and BS was fighting all the time. Because of my guilt etc.
So on Valentines day, he said we are spending the day together and I am not going to work. If I remember correctly he took the kids to school as I recalled we were alone at home ("alone" but my in laws stay on the same premises)
So we had another fight, I can not remember about what.... and I told him I want a divorce. He asked me why and I said 🙈 I do not love him as a husband but as a brother (this was due to my mom as she always told us that was why she divorced my dad after 3 kids)
Anyway he did not believe me because our sex life was always good and not like a bother/ sister. He asked me if there was somebody else and I said yes. He asked if we slept together and I said yes. He asked who and I said it doesn't matter. Within 30 min I gave him the person's name...
Even now he want to know why I did not reveal his name immediatly. He think I was trying to protect AP. I told him the reason why I said I wanted a divorce was because I never intented to tell him about A. But I also could not live with myself for what I did to BS and us.
I never saw AP ever again.

Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.... lately more stones than diamonds.

posts: 60   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2022   ·   location: South Africa
id 8769815
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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 5:12 PM on Friday, December 16th, 2022

Thank for this reply.

I would have hoped that you volunteering that information to your husband, instead of him finding it out on his own, might have made Discovery and Confrontation go better for the both of you. Evidently it has not. And for that I feel really sorry for both your husband and you.

Please do not give up hope. I pray that both of you can get to a better place.

Here is what I saw on the Reconciliation forum and I thought it might be you.

https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/659948/reconciliation-what-does-it-actually-mean/

Maybe you thought I meant you were on another website besides Surviving Infidelity, like Reddit.

Anyway, that is unimportant. What is important is try to live your best self. I am positive things will work out for you.

Best regards.

posts: 280   ·   registered: Aug. 12th, 2022   ·   location: USA
id 8769817
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 Ragab (original poster member #82425) posted at 5:18 PM on Friday, December 16th, 2022

Regarding above. I did not plan on saying to him before thst moment that I wanted a divorce. I was just tired of fighting ALL THE TIME

He kept on telling me he is flighting for me, not with me.

Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.... lately more stones than diamonds.

posts: 60   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2022   ·   location: South Africa
id 8769819
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redwing6 ( member #72593) posted at 11:35 PM on Wednesday, February 1st, 2023

Ragab,
How are you doing? Have you made any progress?

BH 60, WW #2 D'd after 6month EA who scammed her out of our life savings WW #1 51 since remairred twice continues to cheat even today WW #2 Refuses to admit she wrecked our marriage DD adult 33 DSD adult 34 DSS adult 31

posts: 277   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2020   ·   location: Savannah, GA
id 8775741
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WishidleftHer ( member #78703) posted at 4:42 AM on Sunday, February 5th, 2023

Didn't see a stop sign.

In my case I didn't have to get any revenge on the AP.
Since the A was at work, when upper management found out, the AP was fired. He lost everything, insurance and retirement. And on top of that, his BS was pregnant with their fourth child. How do you explain to your pregnant spouse that you got fired for screwing a co-worker.

Me: BH 73. Her: WW 68 Dday over 35 years ago and still feels like yesterday.

posts: 104   ·   registered: Apr. 25th, 2021   ·   location: Capital district, NY
id 8776267
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 Ragab (original poster member #82425) posted at 8:16 AM on Tuesday, February 7th, 2023

I am not sure if I was supposed to start a new post as continuing on posts seems to get lost. But let's see

So, I am still trying to get my timeline acceptable to BS. Nothing I tell him seems to be good enough and or acceptable. For instance, he asked me how he kissed me - my answer was with his mouth. That was seen as sarcasm, and I am making a joke of this and that I am not taking things seriously, etc. Please explain to me, how was I supposed to answer a question like "How did he kiss you"
He keeps on telling me that he wants the full movie seen, not even puzzle pieces are good enough. Remember this was more than 12 years ago, talking about it we are coming closer to the "anniversary" of D-day being 14 Feb.

I am really trying and nothing is good enough or acceptable. over the 12 years, he asked me numerous questions, either verbally and or in writing. I answered the questions to the best of my ability. Now it became a problem because I only answer questions and what am I hiding as I did not give him all the detail. I really thought I was protecting him but I came to understand that I was more likely to protect myself for which I take full responsibility. I was 100% convinced by telling him I had sex with another man was enough. I did not deny that from the beginning but now the way I handled it is the cause of more issues.

I am feeling that he is just looking for excuses to stay in the negative mindset as it became some sort of comfort zone.

Some days are diamonds, some days are stones.... lately more stones than diamonds.

posts: 60   ·   registered: Nov. 19th, 2022   ·   location: South Africa
id 8776467
Topic is Sleeping.
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