SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I did some searching on the site and didn't find much of this, so just wondering if anyone else has thoughts or can relate.

Real FULL DDay for me was 11/10, so just 11 days ago. I got some of this 10/17 and after, though.

WS cheated in the mid-90s and told me days later, then cheated in 2004 and 2005 with two different people (just discovered) and had midly-to-highly inappropriate "banter" for years with female friends/etc. that didn't actually rise to the level of infidelity IMO. But still some betrayal-- some much closer to infidelity than others, definitely stuff that, about 80% of the time, he would have considered wrong had I done it with a man. Certainly there's evidence of that "banter" through 2018 and diminishing around then for a good reason I won't bore you with*.

The thing is... not only did I know about the existence of all of these women (but thought they were "just friends"), he talked me up to them, wanted me to meet them, and literally every one of them had a very high opinion of me and liked me very much. Perhaps in one case (the online affair of 04-05), more mildly favorable/jealous, but never negative. He never, as far as I know, talked shit about me with them, and when it came to what I discovered on my own (emails/texts/etc.) he spoke very highly of me to them.

I can say that the PA from 04-05 (on our Christmas card list!) definitely liked me and was kind to me. Except for the part about ****ing my husband. (I knew of her as his sometime-work colleague and met her in person in 06 after the PA ended. The PA was 4 brief hookups on business trips.)

The inappropriate-banter ladies (friends) all loooovvved me-- or love me still. WS has mostly "good taste" (ugh) so they are mostly pretty fabulous people and I have always gotten along with all of them.

Last week, after D-Day, he felt guilty about being inappropriate with two of his closer friends in the past-- from textual evidence from 2009-2016 I had found and given him. Guilty in part that he had subjected them to creepiness when he really just wanted to be their friend.... mostly, I think... but apparently needed additional validation because he's insatiable on that front. He hadn't (I believe sincerely) fully appreciated how over-the-line he had been until I showed him the messages. He then very stupidly contacted them 2 days post DDay to apologize for his inappropriateness-- which also led to an admission to each of them that he had cheated on me and I had left when I found out. Don't worry, our MC has already reamed him out for getting validation from women he... had sought inappropriate validation from! You know, "Oh, I don't remember you being inappropriate!" Or, "I understand where it came from" and "You are not evil" types of things.

That said. One of them in particular was very upset about him possibly losing me-- she thinks the world of me. And that's so typical. Like... this is my life. WTH.

Obviously I know intellectually it's not ME that he was ever dissatisfied with.

And I have some insight into how having an "incredible marriage" to a "cool wife" actually acts as a signal to women that he is safe, that he won't actually try anything with them, or maybe that he can be an outlet for them to reciprocate and be inappropriate with (in some, not all cases, with my WS)... and also that it raises his status. As a heterosexual woman, I can say I think it reflects well on a man and makes him more "attractive" to me in a general, human sort of way if he has a beautiful or wonderful wife whom he seems to love very much... if that makes sense.

Like if some brilliant hottie loves this man, he must be pretty cool.

Am I on any kind of track here? Has anyone else experienced this? What insights have you gleaned? Just fitting together the puzzle. Thanks.

*I DO believe I have the full truth when it comes to infidelity, though not all details, now. I won't go into why, but FWIW.

My husband's affair started a bit the way your husband's did. Chatty friendship that got a bit flirty and eventually boundaries started getting crossed and pretty soon no one could even see the boundary anymore. There were never any ILYs exchanged. Neither he nor his AP ever expressed any intention of leaving their spouses (though she would talk about wishing they could vacation together). He never spoke poorly of me to her once (at this point, I think I finally believe him on this). In fact, he spoke highly of me before things got physical. That slowed down after things got physical and he explained after that they both tried to avoid conversations about each others' spouses. I imagine reminders of their super cool spouses probably made them feel guilty. He said she started to complain about her spouse on one or two occasions in an attempt to "test the waters" so to speak and he refused to engage in the conversation because he felt like it was a line he could not cross (imagine THAT being the uncrossable line!), and he felt the need to shut down any conversation that could potentially lead to the idea of them actually being together.

Mine claims he never talked me down. Spouses were "off limits" during the affair. He claims that his AP would bitch about her spouse on occasion (as the affair progressed) but he'd shut it down. He said for him it "killed the fantasy." He didn't like to think about spouses and children at home.

I have no real way of knowing except that when his AP called me (Dday2) I asked her what he told her about me. She said he never said a bad word. She said he told her that if she met me, she would have wanted to be my friend. He told her that he's pretty sure most people like me more than they like him. He also told her that if he put half the energy he put into the affair, into his marriage, his marriage would be awesome.

Now she told it with spite in her voice. Like a petulant child "oh he said you were awesome! grrrrr" so I tend to believe it. Besides, she wanted to hurt me that day. If he had talked shit I think she would have enjoyed telling me. Guess she was too stupid to lie.

Or she was lying but I don't see the motivation there.

So I guess I wasn't shit talked. Or not much anyway.

I think my WS's explanation is about right. The affair was meant to be a side thing, not impacting families and lives. He wanted no introduction of reality in their time together. He wanted his fix and not much more.

For your husband, I can see where he played you up because a)it's true and b) it does make him more attractive to women. He doesn't come off as a predator then. The sleaze talking down his wife and the lack of blow jobs in his life is not going to score high quality APs. (if there is such a thing) I def think it's a way to get women comfortable. To a lesser extent, maybe also his way of saying "i'm not in this for a new wife."

emergent8, ain't that the truth! The things that seem to be dealbreakers... for mine it was PIV (until it wasn't, just one time + I believe it) even though he absolutely knew oral etc. was wrong. He just liked to tell himself whatever it took.

TheEnd, you underlined something for me that emergent8 also said... that it was a fantasy, not meant to connect with reality exactly... but for my WS, he actually DID want to have one foot in reality, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

I keep struggling with whether that was better or worse-- that he wanted on some level to share everything with me, but he couldn't, so he just shared 20% and destroyed me.

I think you make a couple of excellent points I hadn't quite thought of about my WH.

1) This is the way to attract high-quality APs (or even "just"... people who would give him ego kibbles) He never wanted to be a member of any club that would have him (too easily), you know? I mean, many clubs would have him-- on paper, he is incredible. But he only wants the attention of very high-quality women. Which sounds like bragging about myself, but heck. As much as I've struggled with self-esteem, there's a lot of ~objective evidence I am very attractive, and highly intelligent and so on... he'd always be like, "How did I get you?" The thing is... he's no slouch. Far from it. Except for the fact he ***cked around on his wife, of course.

But like I said, he has so, so much going for him, but for a variety of reasons always felt like a fraud. He was a black hole of need for validation. Yet here I am, right in front of him-- like he said, "Why did I get in my own way?!"-- and his female friends he gets kibble from are almost all very, very attractive, smart, funny, etc. And he attracted them as friends without having to constantly "joke" about having sex with them but he couldn't help his compulsion. His PA AP was not all that, but she's not BAD, you know? She had some things going for her. And his EA AP was quite brilliant IMO and... a sex worker... so.

I think he wanted to surround himself with beautiful, brilliant women to fill his void. And yes, I guess having me helped in that mission.

2) He never ever was looking for a new wife. Or even a relationship to replace me, really. He had an EA/OA with someone he knew he'd never meet in person, and his short PA was the most pathetic thing you can imagine and called off. There were no feelings like that. I do feel like he has had women waiting in the wings for him, though, with his "banter" friends... and that doesn't feel good. But it's interesting, too, how he... might have created SOME boundary for himself by introducing us and getting them to love me. Like he knew he couldn't be trusted to have boundaries (this is so so true-- look at his boneheaded move to contact his friends last weekend). But maybe they'd create boundaries for him? Be less likely to actually have a PA with him if they love me and would feel too guilty. Hm, a new theory that actually points away from (usually) trawling for women. Especially as to why he didn't "cross the line" with so many women. (I say he did cross a line, obviously, but no PA and not even necessarily an EA among those I'm thinking of.)

I do have to create a lot of his boundaries for him, which is not sustainable. Hm. How passive and dependent of him.

Or maybe I'm way off and trying to make myself feel better. IDK.

Aside from my emotional coldness (as such), she talked me up. It was an emotional affair in my wife's case. But she never shit on me (in general) to AP. She talked me up in most areas. Good husband, father, hardworking, attractive, pays attention to her, smart, funny, fiscally sound. Just not emotional enough or sympathetic enough to her ongoing grief for her mother's death.

Now, my wife's situation isn't a "genuine one off, perfect storm" whatever bullshit you want to use. However, I don't believe there is much to be learned about your husband's pattern of behavior from my wife's behavior.

I also think there is a distinct gender difference, as you state. I don't think being taken as a woman raises or lowers the average attraction men feel toward her. It has been widely experienced and observed that a taken man is suddenly showered with much more attention than when that same man is single. Obviously there can be exceptions to this, but I think this is generally true.

I suspect that your husband talking about what an amazing wife you are to his OWs and ingratiating them toward you was his subtle way of communicating to them that they shouldn’t expect him to divorce or commit to them. Also, if they felt guilty about hurting a good woman who they liked, they would be less likely to out the affairs.

Everything that WSs do is about manipulation.

My wife told her AP, I was a good man. She also told him, if she was with him, she would be cheating on hi, with me.

Oh man Monte that's a compliment and insult at once.

Nope. Mine was nice to me when we were all in the same room and trash talked about me in private.

My husband spoke highly of me to the AP. I actually found emails where he and his AP talked about how surprised they were that their relationship had developed because they both loved their spouses and marriages and were married to loving, good people.

I do think part of my husband’s appeal to the OW is that he’s a solid guy who’s good partner material. Except for the whole falling in love with and fucking someone else and breaking my heart thing.

My situation is pretty different than yours, pineapple, but you make a lot of insightful points.

I love this topic.

I talked to the AP several times but the first one take the cake. We’d finally had a blow up where probably 90% of the truth came out. JM came to my job and handed me a suicide note. We had a MC appointment that day and I manipulated him into making the threat in front of our MC so he was committed to a psych ward.

So at the end of this incredibly long and horrific day I decided to call this bint. And she tells me, “He don’t love me. He’s a good man and I love him with all my heart but he don’t love me. He loves you.” (sic)

As I hung up the phone I was overcome by the absurdity of that conversation and I couldn’t stop laughing.

I’ve always said I wanted to have a t shirt made saying “I know my husband loves me because his girlfriend told me so.”

Anyone else's WS speak highly of them to APs?

Yes. In fact...it seemed to be what gave my H the RUSH he got. He wanted to USE a woman...a woman who KNEW that he was a "happily married man"...yet would still agree to spread her legs for him at his whim .

I found out after Dday that my H had actually had several OA's for almost 2 years before he found himself working alone overseas. This was his opportunity to have a PA. It would have been very unlikely that we would ever go back to that place...so I would never find out about his PA.

I don't have evidence of what he talked about with the OA's...I just have pictures of them that they gave to him. But I do have evidence from the Craigslist ads he posted. He deleted these ads from his email...but he didn't know that Craigslist keeps an account of every ad on the person's profile. I didn't believe my H when he said he wrote the ads that read that he was a "happily married man"...until I saw the proof in that account.

I have limited evidence from his Tagged account...where he "met" the adultery co-conspirator. But he told me that when they met in person...to go over the "rules" before having sex...one of these rules was that the adultery co-conspirator was to never say anything derogatory about me . She didn't have to...their ACTIONS spoke loudly about their DISRESPECT of ME!!!

She said he told her that if she met me, she would have wanted to be my friend.

My H and the adultery co-conspirator had a similar conversation . They actually joked how it was a shame they had sex because it ruined a possible friendship between her and me . The DELUSIONS that come from A's is really remarkable .

"I know my husband loves me because his girlfriend told me so."

I will take one in large please.

My H's OW texted me that my husband loved me very much. Are you kidding me!? I'm sure she did that so that hoping our marriage would crumble and he would go back to her and she would look like the loyal affair partner willing to do anything for her true love.

He never said anything bad about me that I know of.

I'll take one of those t-shirts too.

In our unfortunate email exchanges after I threatened the MOW away, she wrote that she knows my Husband loves me and our children very much and that our marriage is much stronger than hers. I felt violated and not reassured by those words.

I was told repeatedly that they never discussed me, and I asked them both if they never discussed me how she could know how he felt about me. No one answered that question. In one of my awful discoveries, I found fragments of texts on an old phone and learned he talked casually about me with her, my plans and comings and goings with the kids, as if she were just another friend. But I also found curious message fragments where it was obvious they were making jokes about me, what I would or would not do for him. So I know that never discussing me was just another lie, and I'd give almost anything to have the entire messages just to have the missing parts of the texts, or the rest of the sentence.

The irony of his mistress trying to assure me that he loves me and thinking anything about the shards of my marriage could be considered strong when she knew full well all the lies, secrets, betrayals, gaslighting and manipulation they both put me through is comical. Almost as funny as her thinking they had a deep meaningful relationship until they were abruptly ended by my threats to blow up all of our lives.

My only consolation in my exchanges with her is sharing that the beautiful friendship and exclusive Ashley Madison romance she thought they had was no more sacred than his marriage. I loved letting her know how hard and often he searched for others to replace her because he was so bored and she was so needy, and I really enjoyed letting her know how hard he trash talked her to me and how much that hurt her.

I can't even begin to imagine if this woman knew me or had a presence in my life like the ones some of you have had to deal with. I'm so sorry for the added layer of betrayal. I don't understand anything about the mindset of a cheater who continues to profess love for the BS, or tells their OP how wonderful their BS is, and maybe it's a way to make themselves not feel so bad. Trash talking the BS to justify the A makes more sense to me. Maybe there is something to the logic of managing the OP's expectations and making sure they know the WS doesn't plan to leave the marriage. I have to remind myself often that logic is not in play here though. I am coming to a place of acceptance that I will never understand their relationship any more than I do ours. Good luck in your search for understanding.

I know for sure my complained about me to her AP’s. After Dday I got an apology from her physical AP and he said "I know she loves you dearly". Her explanation is she told him how much she loves me, but would complain about the M.

I also had the surreal experience of having my husband’s affair partner gush about how much my husband loved me and how much they both cherished their beautiful lives and marriages, and how they just had a moment focused on their own mortality and let themselves follow a beautiful connection that made them lose their way. That’s nearly a direct quote.

I was in such a stunned daze and in so much pain and shock that I didn’t know how to respond. I wish I had pointed out that I too am totally fucking aware that life is short and death awaits us all, and yet somehow I’ve managed not to carpet bomb the most meaningful relationship in my life by sucking my colleague’s dick. 🤷‍♀️

Anyway, I understand WhatIsLoveAnyway’s comment that trash talking your spouse to the AP makes more intuitive sense. One of the most profoundly disorienting things about this whole experience for me is going from thinking I had a good marriage where we had an excellent partnership, a good sex life, and enjoyed each other’s company, to finding out my husband was having a torrid affair with his coworker. It would be easier to understand if we had a shit marriage to begin with where he had a laundry list of complaints to air with the AP.

As it stands, I’ve spent a lot of energy perseverating uselessly on various possibilities: has he always been a cheater with poor boundaries and I was just blind to it? Was/is he secretly dissatisfied with me and our marriage (he swears that’s not the case)? Was the affair a midlife crisis/poor stress response to other difficult shit he was going through? I think the last option is closest to accurate, but being cheated on when I literally never, ever thought it would happen has destroyed any confidence that my sense of things reflects reality.

In any case, I think my situation shows that affairs can and do happen in marriages that one or both partners think of as strong and healthy.

I too am totally fucking aware that life is short and death awaits us all, and yet somehow I’ve managed not to carpet bomb the most meaningful relationship in my life by sucking my colleague’s dick.

DANG Grieving...that quote was quote worthy for the quote thread in the "Fun and Games Forum"...so I put it there for everyone else to read...and AGREE with .

DANG Grieving...that quote was quote worthy for the quote thread in the "Fun and Games Forum"...so I put it there for everyone else to read...and AGREE with

I’m glad you preserved it, I was in disbelief that Grieving wrote that 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Lol, Want2Be. I’ll have to check out that forum; I’ve not really spent any time on it.

Tanner, I have my moments. 😂

[This message edited by Grieving at 5:55 PM, Tuesday, November 22nd]

"I too am totally fucking aware that life is short and death awaits us all, and yet somehow I’ve managed not to carpet bomb the most meaningful relationship in my life by sucking my colleague’s dick. 🤷‍♀️"

This is gold!!!

Grieving That quote is 🔥

I don’t think my XWS spoke badly about me. He just wanted both. She was fun and adventure and I was practicality and chores.

I think that speaking highly of me fed his affair — look how amazing he is if he has 2 amazing women who want him! He is all that and a cup of soup, because, to him, we were all that. I also think that initially they wanted a NSA affair - that was his AP’s MO, so by speaking well of me, he could justify that it was just sex and escape. But they caught feelings and then, well, we know how that ended up, at least for me.

They say/feel/do whatever gets them what they want. It’s that simple.