SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are getting closer and closer to what has actually happened. It is unfortunate that we, as the betrayed who have just been hit with infidelity, often have to go the route you have taken(fact checking, emotional detachment, semi private investigator, etc....) to get to the point that you are now.

The positives, and there are several, is that your WW has found some humility----much the opposite of the callous behavior that you were shown prior to discovery, along with her stated intention that she would like to reconcile. Don't get me wrong, as there are plenty of negatives that also must be taken into account. I really think that she needs to get honest with herself about where she thought that is relationship with her ex was going to end up. But IMHO, at least her head has been extracted from her hind quarters, and she has plenty of work to do.

So......my couple of questions are:

--Do you believe that you have the truth?
--What would you like to do as it pertains to reconciling?

You are still in what we call the 'Discovery' period. That ends when you believe that you have all of the necessary data. Like Stevesn mentioned--if you feel that you need to know more about the 3 days, then have the phone interrogated. The further that time moves on, the harder that this task will become. Don't wind up kicking yourself in the ass if you feel you need more information, but fail to get it. For me, at least, it was more important that I honestly felt that (1) I had the truth, and (2) my WW would make any effort to get me information if I required such. It is the effort more so than the actual information we are seeking.

Once you get to that point, I believe the feelings of being stuck will start to lift. Also, I think that your interpretation regarding the polygraph is spot on. If you don't believe that it will give you vital information to help rebuild trust, then it is not something that needs to be pursued....at this time.

I'm a glutton for punishment, too, Stevesn so I'm going to keep asking:

What was your wife doing for the 3 days that she was there by herself? We know that you and the rest of the family joined her for the wedding. What was she doing with her time while she was alone?

You have access to her phone now. Have you tried to recover the messages that she deleted? Have you looked at her GPS history?

If you're deliberately avoiding answering these questions, then why?

Rover

Please don’t get discouraged by us asking technical questions about the phone. You are unsure of the truth. We want you to have it and want you to use all the tools available to you.

If you end up back in a long term relationship with your wife then down the road, you’ll want to go into trust but occasionally verify mode. But since her cheating is recent, and she used texting and photos to communicate with her AP, you will want to be doing things to recover the past and confirm the present.

So if in your shoes I would tell my wayward wife something like this.

"I need to feel that you care about my pain as much or even more than your own. I need you to be on my side on this, seeing how this cheating has affected me from my perspective, not yours. Trust was a foundation of our relationship. You took it and threw it out the window and it was smashed by the trash truck sailing by. Number one thing you need to do, if I’m to ever consider you as a partner let alone a spouse again, is to rebuild it.

So I need a plan from you as to what you are going to do to fix what is and was broken in you and to help me heal from the emotional wound you inflicted on me.

And to that end, you need to let go of the outcome. Do things because they are right for me, not because you think they’ll hurt your cause in trying to keep us together. I get to decide on that. I can’t heal and make a decision on rebuilding until I know what you have done.

So I’ll tell you what I need and I also need you to come up, through your own research, with ideas of your own."

Rover, you have access to her phone. Working with your wife I suggest you do the following:

1) obtain google location history for the week she was away

2) in working with the OBS obtain the APs google location history for the same week.

3) get an old phone and load it with an old backup from the week she was away to recover texts and pictures.

4) bring her phone to a data recovery company to recover old texts and pics

5) look in google photos for backups of photos she took

6) with your wife, call the hotel and ask how you can get Lobby video for the week in question even if there is a cost. You may have to hire a PI to get it.

7) look at your wife’s credit card expenditures for those days

8) ask the OBS to get credit card info for her husband those days

9) finally… settle on a lie detector firm and go with them. Even if it’s the two or three questions. We can help you formulate them. Get them answered. "Did you meet with AP that week". "Did you have sex with the AP". "Since you have been married have you had sex of any kind with anyone other than your husband".

10) oh yes, tell her to sell something of value to only her to help pay for it. Favorite jewelry. Favorite clothes/dresses. Whatever. These are the ways she shows you that she’s all in. She should jump at these opportunities to put your mind at ease a bit and show her commitment.

You ask often how to get thru this. You ask how to move forward. These are the ways. It should be this way. But she shouldn’t have cheated.

I hope you will consider what we write.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:48 PM, Tuesday, November 29th]

Rover,

Have you read what bigger and stevesn have repeatedly asked you to do to gather enough proof to verify what she was doing during those three days? They even recommended various legal ways to do it. You haven't replied to their posts. You should atleast inform them whether you have followed through their suggestions or not? If you have not followed through then that is a cause of concern. If you follow through them then you won't have to imagine things in your mind regarding what she did in those days and that will also establish her intent and break this impasse.

Rover, if you are able to verify what she is telling and want to move to R (at some point once she starts IC), you should still ask for and get the no Alimony going forward to be put in place. This way, you can move forward with R if you so choose, but be protected in case that does not work out. You have been given a get out of jail free card by your WW b/c of her affair, take that card and protect yourself. Its okay not to know which way you want to go right now, its early, but your wayward wife may change her mind later.

Google location tracking is off by default. She let me look and it was never turned on.

She has already given me a play by play of her time at the beach. I have looked at all her texts (the ones she didn't delete from OM) and receipts that she provided from stores,etc and they match up.

At this point I believe they never met up. Lots of reasons why I think this, but what I am stuck on is what she intended to do. I have no idea how to validate intent... even a poly can't do that.

I have no idea how to validate intent... even a poly can't do that.

You're free to believe whatever you want to believe in that regard. Matters of the heart can be subtle, sub rosa, ephemeral. Yet we navigate them all the time in real life. I recall dating somebody and wondering whether to lean in for a kiss. Does she want me to, or not? Will it be welcome? Reciprocated? Humans communicate emotions in a million non-verbal ways. Cleaned room, wine, etc., all of the trappings smack of somebody who wanted to hook up physically and would have but for being rejected.

It's legitimate for you to simply say "I don't believe you."

The real question is: what do you intend to do, going forward, assuming you remain firm in your (quite justified) belief that she intended/attempted to have a PA with this guy?

Ok I understand.

However there are still 9 other things to try on that list I sent.

Honestly if it were me, while it may not replace what her affair destroyed, but I would still do all those things to try and recover the texts and pictures. i would still ask the OBS to try and retrieve the same.

And yes, i would have her do all the things she offered. Apologize to family and friends. Open access to technology. Let her work to make amends. She has to do these things yes for you, but for herself as well.

The texts you saw, what did they express. Were they just trying to set up a meeting? Were there any emotional ones? Sexual ones?

If it were me, I’d ask her to recreate the worst ones she can think of and share them with you. Type them out and then discuss what she was thinking and feeling when she wrote them.

You feel she is holding back on the truth. Again, in your shoes, along with what I wrote in my last post, I would tell her:

"The thing that hurts the most, is that you were willing to risk your marriage to see if there was a spark between you and this guy. This was more than just catching up on the family and kids. This was someone that you had feelings for. This was someone that had been a lover. And your Intentions were to find out if there was something better there than at home.

And while you may have told yourself you wouldn’t cross a line, and I actually believe you told yourself that, the truth is you put yourself in a position to have a ready and available hotel room to go to with him if the apart ended up being there.

While you may have told yourself you wouldn’t cross that line, the truth is, if he showed, you made it so the option was clearly there if you wanted to go for it.

That is what is so painful. And you denying that just makes it worse. You’re protecting yourself, not me. You are worried about the outcome and therefore won’t admit it to me. And in the end, that is what will drive me away.

You were supposed to love honor and protect me. In what you tried to do, and how you tried to cover it up by deleting everything, you did the opposite of all three of those things"

She needs to fight for you my friend. She seems to be starting to do that. You need to ask for exactly what you need to heal and decide to rebuild and let her try to deliver.

I hope she can do that without guarantees of anything.

I guess I’ll be a broken record as well. The poly is not to figure out her intentions. It’s simply two questions:
1. Did you have a physical relationship with the OM
2. Have you ever had a physical relationship with anyone besides Roverguy since you were engaged through present.

You seem to be avoidant of the poly. Waywards lie, lie, lie. You will never know if she had sex with OM, or any other OMs, unless you do the poly.

Get it done and move on. The issue of cost is her trying to avoid it. It’s chaff.

"Have you told Rover all the truth about your affair and intentions?"

or

"Are you withholding any information concerning your affair from Rover?"

Take it from someone with poly experience, the wording of questions is key!

SHE needs to pay for the polygraph. Not you. Not marital funds. HER.

She can sell something of hers to pay for it. Or deliver pizza in the evening.

You seem to be trying to find a way around the poly. Get the poly.

She's so sorry? Odd that she wasn't sorry until she spoke to an attorney. And after the OM threw her under the bus.

Also..you know her intention. She's an adult. She was having an emotional affair with an old boyfriend. It's said around here, for very good reason, that when distance isn't an issue, the vast majority of emotional affairs become physical. All of that build up..just to have a cup of coffee? Not a chance.

Also..OM has good reason to lie about seeing her. He is wanting to stay with his wife. But, seriously. Married men don't involve themselves in affairs to send texts,and give compliments. They're in it for the sex.

Maybe they didn't meet up that night for coffee. That doesn't mean they didn't see each other the next day.

I've gotten no apology (of all people) because there is no potentail benefit to be derived for her from doing so. Again, all about her. I've reached being OK with that because I know what I'm dealing with. I see a lot of my WW in yours. Keep your defenses up, or you are going to get burnt badly.

I would be mindful of troutman523 words here.

There are A LOT of people around here where similar has happen (including me). Not to say your situation is similar, but it just may.

Cheaters have a mindset which a "perfectly" funtional person can't even begin to understand. Mindblowing really.

Do this (if you consider useful) just to test the waters (and to observe her actions):

Ask her to leave the house because you need to stay alone with yourself for a few days so you can get your head together. Tell her it is paramount to you at the moment. Then observe. I'm guessing she won't leave.

Ask her to see her phone all by yourself without her being there. She probably won't let you. Or she might, now that she had more than enough time to erase all evidence.

And again, I ask. Did she got mad after you told the OMW about the affair even if you did not tell her you just did that? If so, that right there in itself is a MAJOUR red flag (they are still talking).

Take your time. Access the circumstances. Proceed with caution.

[This message edited by justanotherperson at 1:41 PM, Wednesday, November 30th]

"Have you told your husband the truth about the affair?"

"Have you had sex with anyone, other than your husband, since you have been married?"

"Have you told your husband the entire truth, regarding your intentions,when meeting with OM?"

There you go.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:51 PM, Tuesday, November 29th]

A poly’s goal isn’t to get the truth. Your wife should tell you the truth BEFORE the test. The poly is to evaluate if she’s being honest.
If your wife thought the moon was made from cheese she would pass with a "yes" with flying colors if asked if the moon was made of cheese, despite it being factually wrong – a lie.

Frankly – whether she intended and planned to meet OM and to have sex with him isn’t really the issue. Like I have repeatedly said: a marriage can recover from what is known, and that the truth needs to come out eventually for successful reconciliation. If the truth is that they only planned on having coffee… great. Once you have that confirmed the best you can, you can start deciding if you can reconcile. If the truth is that they were at it like rabbits… well… great. Once you have that confirmed the best you can, you can start deciding if you can reconcile. Or not. But learning maybe six month from now that they did meet for a coffee – even as "innocently" as with five other friends around that can confirm nothing else took place… THAT info at THAT time will completely destroy any reconciliation gains.

On the 10 th page of this thread I share a story about a former poster. That poster got strong confirmation that his wife was lying when she failed the poly. Twice. The poly didn’t tell him the truth about what happened, but it gave him extremely reliable indications that his wife wasn’t being honest. In his shoes I would have told my wife that sorry, you don’t trust me with the truth so our chances of reconciliation are none. Have a nice life without me.

I really want to stress that part. Reconciliation does NOT require that they never met or never had sex. Reconciliation requires HONESTY. What they did can factor in your decision on if you want to R or D, but lack of honesty should determine your ability to reconcile.

This needs to be very clear IMHO: Your wife needs to understand that IF she fails a poly then whether you want to reconcile is no longer the issue. Her failure would tell you SHE can’t reconcile because she isn’t being honest.

The questions? One favorite trick is to have one question that you know the answer to, but she isn’t aware of that knowledge. The operator will also ask what is basically the same question 2-3 times, simply to better gauge the answers.

With the operators approval then I would make your wife aware of maybe some of the questions beforehand in some way, and give her the chance to clarify any issues.
A good operator will define terms. Here are some suggestions:

Other than RoverGuy, have you had sex (as we defined sex earlier on) with any other man since you married him in 1996? [This is a catch-all and it would probably be best she knows she will be asked about the past. She has the chance of coming clean if she hooked up with the pool-boy back in 2001 or whatever.]
From 2020 have you met or been in the same room as OM? [She denies having seen him at all. If she passes the first question yet fails this one = they met but no sex. If she fails the first one then she’s already failed…]
During your affair with OM did you send personal pictures with sexual content? [She claims there was no sexual content in the pics. This again is to confirm her honesty.]

IMHO these 3 questions should give you all you need. If she passes, she’s being honest about what are key elements and tough elements. It’s then up to you to decide what next. If she fails… well…

I think a poly needs to have a purpose. That purpose should be to create a possible baseline to work from. The consequences of failure need to be very very clear. Like she KNOWS that if she tries to fake it or place tacks in her shoes or swallow some sedatives before being strapped in and she KNOWS if she fails… Her chance of reconciling are non-existent. On the flip-side she also knows that whatever truth she shares BEFORE the poly still leave her a shot at reconciling. She has to have something to gain from being honest, and everything to lose from being dishonest.

Poly questions

1. Have you had any sexual or romantic relationships with anyone other than Dickhead since we have been married?

2. Did you and Dickhead meet up?

3. Did you and Dickhead exchange any texts, photos, or video of a sexual nature?

And for the last time I’ll ask…

Why not attempt to recover the deleted messages from her phone using a program or with help from a professional?

The reason that I’m harping on this is for the following reasons:

- You do not want to agree to reconciliation without knowing what exactly you’re choosing to forgive.

- You don’t want to find yourself in a situation lying awake in bed months or years later wondering if you have the truth or if there wasn’t more that could’ve been done to get it.

-You don’t want to get blindsided by any new information that might come out further down the line..

And perhaps most importantly of all..

If she IS telling the truth, then those recovered messages will corroborate her story and provide a foundation upon which trust can be rebuilt.

If she is telling the truth, she will jump at the opportunity to prove it.

If she balks at this, then you can bet she’s still lying about something.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 1:59 AM, Wednesday, November 30th]

Bluerthanblue - Holy shit, I literally laughed out loud at your post calling him Dickhead. Thank you for that!

Why not attempt to recover the deleted messages from her phone using a program or with help from a professional?

I kind of disagree here. Me and WW have talked more these last few weeks than the last 2 years of of marriage combined. She is NOT a very complicated person and after 28 years, I know what her limits are when it comes to emotions.

She has told me about the texts. They were 95% stupid crap, every day back and forth shit. The other 5% were them reminiscing. Sometimes that really crossed the line, but I believe her. Me seeing the content of all that banter will serve no purpose but to confuse me even more and make me focus on the small shit and not the big picture. I honestly don't want to read 10 months of texts.

She has said I know everything. I asked her to tell me the story about them, from when he reached out to D-day. She spent 2 hours telling the story last night, sharing a lot of "why" and also a lot of her feelings. It's honestly a good practice and I recommend it for others who find themselves in this situation. I just asked her to "tell me the story". Not like a textbook, or reciting from a script, but a story. It was helpful for both of us as and I learned a lot about what was going through her head the whole time, what she was and wasn't thinking, what she was feeling. I literally did not say a word for 2 hours. I did have a few questions when she finished, but I did not interrupt her at all. I think doing this more than once would be good to. Not only will you be able to see if the story is the same, but you can also gauge if the WS is really ready to talk because telling the story is exhausting. If they agree to tell the story over and over, I think that is a good thing. One thing that my WW brought up, was that the more she talked, the more details came back to her. So just know that there may be some additional facts that come out as story goes on. Another thing she said was that it was really hard to remember everything because of the guilt and shame she felt literally the whole time. So sometimes the story was a little different, but if it isn't anything critical, I didn't dwell on it.

I believe she never met him at the beach. I believe that she never sent him any sexual pictures (after 28 years I have gotten 1 -no way she would do that with an ex). What I WANT to believe is that she never INTENDED to have sex with him at the beach. So she is 100% on board for a poly to prove that they only intended to have a drink and she would never cross the "physical" line.

I'm not saying I am going to reconcile. Even if her truth is the truth, sharing herself every fucking day with an ex is an issue. I still need to work through some shit, but my biggest blocker right now is her intent while at the beach. Look, none of us are angels. I have a dear friend who is a cheater. He has told me how easy it is to get carried away with texting. Just stupid shit, but it's exciting and new and a drug. He said it took him a few months to get over the "loss" of addiction. Not making excuses by any means, they should never put themselves in the position to even start a texting relationship.

I know for a fact that WW is not in contact with OM since Nov 4, 2 days after D-day. And it was a Facebook message from him to her saying he was done because I texted his wife. For those following along, I texted his EX wife. He is remarried and his real wife didn't know until I texted her last week. We ended up talking for a few hours. OMW told me she called him as soon as I texted her and he caved immediately. Cried like a baby and begged forgiveness. He said he has been sick to his stomach just waiting for me to reach out to his wife. I should have made him wait longer.

So bottom line...I believe the relationship was WAY over the line...I believe they never met up...I believe there were no sexual pictures...I believe it was easy for them to do what they did because OM doesn't really work and is available all the time...I believe my WW is starting to feel the shame, embarrassment, guilt of what she has done (she has lost a ton of weight since D-day which she can't afford to lose)...I believe she will do anything to salvage this relationship. The question is whether I can forgive her. Right now, I can't.

[This message edited by RoverGuy at 2:38 PM, Wednesday, November 30th]

Has her early reluctance to cooperate come up at all?

The way she treated you? The comments about not knowing if she could… I can’t remember the word used but be bothered to sort this out during the early days? I have to imagine this process would have been an entirely different ball game if she had been how she is today, then.

Sigh… I sometimes think you don’t read this site…

We have suggested a number of ways to get the truth… We don’t expect you to read 10000 texts, but you could search them for key words or scan for content. She claims there was no sexual content – its not the content you are after, but if she’s being truthful.

What about a detailed hotel-bill? Phoned the lobby yet? (I doubt you can get CCTV footage, but a bill could be in your inbox in ten minutes).

She is NOT a very complicated person and after 28 years, I know what her limits are when it comes to emotions.

The same simple person that managed to hide what’s happening for 2 years.

So she is 100% on board for a poly to prove that they only intended to have a drink and she would never cross the "physical" line.

As you yourself said: a poly can’t give you that answer.

When she sent the first "hi – remember me" (or received the first text from OM) she had no intention to have an affair. It wasn’t as if she had her fruits for breakfast and then sat there pondering if she should find an old BF and then spend the next 2 years reeling him in for an affair. She can HONESTLY say that she had no intention of having sex with OM (who still – if everything is true – felt a need to stand her up for what everyone thought was an innocent cup of coffee…).

The REAL ISSUE a poly can answer is this:

She says they never met.

If asked:

From 2020 have you met or been in the same room as OM?

and she says "no" and passes… You can safely assume she’s told you the truth.

If she says "no" and the machine starts smoking… You can safely assume she’s lying, and therefore everything else she has shared is suspect.

The poly can be used to support her TRUTH – a valid, yes or no and factual truth, not an emotional what if truth.

What I’m surprised of is that you state you can minimize payments IF you divorce due to adultery. Yet it doesn’t sound like you think your wife’s actions crossed the LEGAL line of adultery. I did some research on this and NC has a requirement for some form of sexual act to have taken place or a high probability of a sexual act having taken place for adultery to be a factor in divorce. Sending several thousand innocent posts or spending hours on the phone is not sexual. The law doesn’t acknowledge emotional infidelity, in fact there is a landmark case in NC from 2013 that lists something like 45 acts that are considered "adultery" and they all seem to involve some form of direct sexual stimulation. "Remember that time Jane got drunk" or even "remember our first kiss in the gym" doesn’t cut it. Alienation of affection can only apply to a third party – you cant sue your wife for that. Please – contact your attorney, describe what you have and be 100% certain you are right.

Its this high level of proof needed that is the main reason most states and countries have done away with adultery and it’s effects in divorce.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:25 PM, Wednesday, November 30th]

I know for a fact that WW is not in contact with OM since Nov 4, 2 days after D-day.

The only fact that you have verified is that she is willing to lie to your face.
Gently, I think you are burying your head in the sand. I think she is telling you what you desperately want to hear.

Regarding her story, she should write it out by hand. I would recommend you buy a 10-pack of yellow lined notepads and tell her wo write out her timeline from the first time he entered her mind since you have been married, until the last time they had contact. She should write using every 3rd line on each page. Don't accept anything less than 5 notepads worth. Then you have her read it to you. You will use the lines in between hers to write your followup questions and her answers. After this is accomplished you can verify the accuracy by poly.

5 years from now when you wake up at night sweating, you will have a thorough point of reference to go back to and confirm the new revelations your lizard braid will come up with.

She is still lying, IMHO. Wishing you the best.

Something popped into my head…

Why was OM a total wreak? Why did he breakdown at knowing you had called?

From the current version there was nothing sexual, no meetings. No pictures and he actively turned down meeting your wife. It seems the response of someone waiting for the other shoe to drop not someone who flirted with an Ex then turned down meeting up after she travelled to see him.

Their stories match but we know they had time to get those straight… I dunno, just seems disproportionate given what he supposedly did. I’m not downplaying OM involvement just of the two of them he comes across like his involvement was relatively mild. Again, guy still had an emotional affair I’m just wondering why he went straight to sobbing.

[This message edited by Kindern at 6:06 PM, Wednesday, November 30th]