SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You ask:

Am I crazy, or do I still deserve to have a way to privately converse with WH about our marriage? Is there any point to it? It feels like I still deserve to have private conversations about what happened, like only discussing parenting/finances/house is punishing me somehow. Like it's me giving up the right to hear any more information about what happened to our marriage, or any hope of ever getting any more questions answered. Like it's letting WH off the hook. Giving him his ideal scenario in which he never has to account for himself or his actions. Was he doing this before I restricted our conversations? No he wasn't. But I always felt like there was a chance he would. That lightning would strike one night and he'd tell me something - anything - to fill in the missing pieces.

You are of course entitled to proceed as you wish. It's worth pointing out that the advice here is not the required course of action. I, for one, continued to engage with my WH when I felt like it, on my terms. I learned not to expect anything out of him though. I think I initially backed off and then came back to the table but only when I felt like it and without any expectations. I treated conversing with him almost like a reminder of what bullshit he was capable of spewing at that time. Almost of a reminder of his manipulations when/if I felt my resolve against him softening.

Only you know if there is more harm than good for you. I recall when my WH was still engaging in his A post d-day 2 when I pretty much knew about it but became more interested in seeing him lie to my face about its existence - while I was getting my ducks in a row. I would ask loaded questions and watch him squirm. His angry fits and attempts at manipulation only pushed me further away (which I tell him now - as i know he would really like to R after he's been on his own and been in therapy for 3+ years - that time period where his ugliness was so clear and obvious to me was just more nails in the coffin containing "us"). Just typing that makes me sound crappy and manipulative myself, but I think what happened was that realized I stopped protecting him in my mind, so my conversations with him were all about my agenda - his agenda just rolled off my back.

So, I say do what you think is best, and try something else if it's not working.

EDIT: I will add that if you already know the "why" that he did all of this: Because he wanted to. The problem is now that you won't let him continue to do what he wants, and he likely has no desire to change. It really is that simple.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 6:52 PM, Tuesday, May 23rd]

Just typing that makes me sound crappy and manipulative myself, but I think what happened was that realized I stopped protecting him in my mind, so my conversations with him were all about my agenda - his agenda just rolled off my back.

No, you don't! I totally get this! I was imagining it in my mind as I was reading your post, and if I imagine doing that to my WH while he lied it would absolutely be about verifying to myself that he is indeed exactly that level of liar, is currently lying, is currently choosing to lie to my face. There's such a sense of disbelief that comes with infidelity that there is some relief in having absolute verification that this awful side of the person you love IS real. As you said, no longer making excuses for them, even in your own mind. "He couldn't possibly..." becomes "He IS, and right this minute." Also when you're arguing and struggling with the details and being manipulated you are really IN it. It's hard to be involved in the emotional roller coaster while also evaluating the emotions, which takes some emotional distance. I also have a lot of information from WH's OW (pictures, screengrabs and texts) that I confronted him with and that he denied. Having the evidence right there and seeing him lie was in some ways a gift to me, but I was still too head-spinny to benefit from it entirely. But I bet when I look back it will have gone a long way towards helping convince me that what I knew to be true was indeed true, and that he wasn't even close to the person he was presenting himself to be. The way you described it, you had information as your anchor and he still had every chance to just be honest and chose not to. Using an anchor to anchor ourselves isn't in my opinion manipulation, it's just safety.

He is controlling himself. You know how he's all mean, accusatory, rewriting history to you on the emails but is nice on the family chat? That is all control and manipulation. He turns it off & on as he sees fit.

It's so very doubtful that there will be a lightning strike and he'll say something to help with the missing pieces. Unfortunately, you can't really trust what comes out of his mouth.

ETA: For part of my processing, I went through memory after memory. What was I thinking/feeling at the time? Was I happy, sad, mad. Was I being authentic? What about XWH, I what were huts thoughts and feelings? Is what he told me true, a lie or I have no idea. If I had no idea, was I being authentic according to the truth I knew. If I was being authentic according to the truth I knew, then I am ok with it.

I got to a point where I realized that I wouldn't be able to apply logic to the A situation and all of his lies because it is an illogical situation.

[This message edited by leafields at 12:55 AM, Wednesday, May 24th]

There's such a sense of disbelief that comes with infidelity that there is some relief in having absolute verification that this awful side of the person you love IS real.

It's such a double edged sword, isn't it? One one hand, this person you loved more than anything else in life has debased themselves and lied to you on so many varying levels that the sheer weight of their long-term blatancy and sense of misguided apathetic invulnerabilty just aboslutely destroys you; while at the same time those same lies and multiple disgraces make it easier for you to let them go in the long run.

I saw my ex-WW tonight at drop off and she just looks haggard. I miss who I THOUGHT SHE WAS dearly, but I don't miss the new version; a walking Dorian Grey painting let loose from the attic, her hedonism and poor decisions worn on her face like the burden they are, not the 'exciting new life' she thought it would be.

You have to admit, once the indifference sets in fully, it will be interesting watching your ex-WH's spiral into the possible self-realisation that he is indeed a woeful human being.

Sigyn - I’m sure it’s been discussed on the thread but if so and to reiterate, I think it would be helpful for you to look into the concept of trauma bonding (Stockholm Syndrome is a good and well-studied example of this). It also explains why no/minimum contact (though I know it’s hard with where you currently are and that you have a young child together) is so effective in gaining clarity. I also understand why it’s concerning with how much you share with your family - though I do think the "he was unfaithful" only paints a very limited picture of your actual situation. The additional aspects that it was prolific, perverted, and that he continues to lie in the face of hard evidence is the real tell that trumps any notion of he knows he made a "mistake".

Engaging with him in any way just opens you to further manipulation. There’s a world of difference between knowing he is manipulating…and weeding out how that manipulation is still having an affect. The deeper affect is still wishing to understand, trying to find a key to his door, and, more important and insidious, all the internal questions and doubts you wrestle with - the internal conflict. This is the trauma bond aspect - that deep down you know who and what he is, you just can’t fully reconcile it. (All of this is completely normal, btw, and part of the process.). A better understanding of the trauma bond and all that happens in the reptilian brain just helped me "disassociate" from the events and interactions themselves and to instead become more an observer to my own emotional reactions. It helped to separate the human-experience part of me (instinctual survival) from the higher soul experience (deeper truth). Once I could see those two aspects with distinction then the cognitive dissonance was calmed because I was no longer trying to reconcile those two parts into one absolute…I was able to accept that both this and that can be true.

It's so very doubtful that there will be a lightning strike and he'll say something to help with the missing pieces. Unfortunately, you can't really trust what comes out of his mouth.

Especially now when there's nothing left for him to gain from it. I know enough that I don't need any more details about the what, I'm just back to wondering about the why and how of it all, and I don't think he really even knows that about himself. Black box forever.

Well, one bonus find: I unearthed more of his comments in the cheater's group after finding a second account of his (same user name with a number after it, also definitely his writing) in which he pondered whether he should send his favorite sexworker money during early Covid when businesses were shut down. I looked back at our banking and there were no cash withdrawals then, nor did he Venmo anyone I didn't know. I guess he chose not to generously support that small local business in the absence of receiving the service.

...her hedonism and poor decisions worn on her face like the burden they are, not the 'exciting new life' she thought it would be.

Same with WH! He looks awful, hollow eyed and pale and he has developed this weird tic where he rakes his hands repeatedly through his hair until it's standing on end and then he rakes it all down and starts over again, it's just so distracting and weird and for someone who cares a LOT about his appearance it's definitely a sign of emotional unwellness. Like your exWW, somehow now that he's free to live his life loud and proud, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of celebration or enjoyment happening. Your exWW should by her own account be having an objectively better life now - I wonder if it will ever occur to her to wonder why she's not.