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I ‘d like some words of wisdom from my SI community members.

I’m posting in R since this is where we are for the past three years, going on four.

We had a long talk this morning after a cool down period from yesterday evening.

I’ll summarize and please ask me questions if something is unclear, because at this point I am totally mixed up with my feelings and I feel like I’m floundering after our conversation.

He thinks I am using his past affair and his past heavy alcohol use as handy excuses to be moody, and to say no to sex. It was a complicated talk. Lots of finger pointing, blaming and "I’m right and you’re wrong" examples. Not our finest moment! For both of us.

My point of view is yes, I get "moody" as old memories/triggers hit. And yes sometimes I’m just not in the mood to have sex specifically at the end of the evening after going out on a "date" or at night. So I say no. And it may have nothing to do with any affair triggers… I do get tired at the end of the day, unlike him who seems to have the ability to stay up at night, get a few hours of sleep and start the day early again.

Which got us to discuss intimacy frequency, care, appreciation…yikes everything. So his take is in an ideal world he would have intimacy/sex every day. And that for him counts as care, appreciation etc. Especially after we would go out and truly enjoy the things we do. But like does it have to end in sex every time? It even got to the point where he said that we won’t go out on dates anymore! He admitted to bottling up his feelings and that yesterday’s event was the explosion of frustrations and built up resentments.

Do other wayward men think that way? I know that with his affair partner that this was his expectation. Did they do it every day when they were travelling for weeks together? He won’t answer me. He says I’ll use this knowledge against him. Sigh.

So much neediness on his part! So much defensiveness! Thank you’s for having had a great time are currently insufficient for him. Holding hands are no longer sufficient for him. Sex in the afternoons are great, but now he wants it nightly. His words are he wants me to be creative, interested, appreciative etc. etc. I seem to have no say in this.

Something is going on in his head and it looks like even he can’t figure this out. He does not believe my feelings. He is gaslighting me. And there he is telling me he want me to say he's the greatest lover. Insecurities! He told me his affair partner would say that. Of course she would! That was her job, to feed his ego!

How can I tell him he's the greatest lover for me, when I've had better sex in my prior relationships? Do I lie?

I can’t help him, I feel I’m giving as much as I can to build up the relationship. And he thinks he’s doing lots . We are both correct. But I thought everything was good between us…seems not. We are not in the best of places right now.

I just want to curl up and give up. I feel hurt all over again.

My ex saw sex as a transactional thing rather than an emotional connection for us. Of course in the beginning it’s good or in an A where there isn’t the baggage of daily married life. The way your WS coerces intimacy would be a total turn off to me too. My xWS did this and it drove me to repulsion rather than desire. What is he doing to try to rekindle that desire. It does sound like he is needy, needs the constant validation and that is also a turn off. Having to tell him he is the best lover oh boy. My marriage didn’t work after the A’s my repulsion was too strong as was his coercion and it was a complete nightmare.

Sex in the afternoons are great, but now he wants it nightly. His words are he wants me to be creative, interested, appreciative etc. etc. I seem to have no say in this.

This is not a healthy dynamic. I was about to call it an abusive dynamic, but don't want to get into a debate about that. My point is that he isn't loving and respecting you as he should. He's not being a good partner. Given that he cheated and called you a boring wife, that is in line with his past behavior. He does not highly value you. You might want to reconsider staying with him. He's been given the golden opportunity to reconcile with you, and is not appreciating it at all.

Btw I once had a boyfriend who wanted sex every time we were together, and surprise surprise, he wasn't in it for the long haul, despite his claims of love and devotion to me, our very public and multi-year status as a couple and the warm embrace of me by his family. Despite all of that, when I look back I see that he was using me for sex, because when I began to resist having automatically having sex every single time, his supposedly deep love for me went out the window. Your husband reminds me of him. He doesn't seem like a positive person to be with.

Did they do it every day when they were travelling for weeks together? He won’t answer me.

Him not answering you IS your answer. One of the "rules" my H and the adultery co-conspirator came up with was that IF she came to the hotel...they would be having sex. With her having three children still at home...one of them being a special needs child...she could only come to the hotel 2 or 3 times per week...AFTER 8:30pm. But it didn't stop my H from calling her EVERY DAY to see if she was coming to his hotel . My H would have had sex every day as well...IF he could keep it up that is .

How can I tell him he's the greatest lover for me, when I've had better sex in my prior relationships? Do I lie?

I don't believe that lying would help anything. BUT...is there a way HE can work on things to give YOU better sex than you have ever had before? Then it wouldn't be a lie . How BIG is his ego?? If he is willing to WORK toward being the best lover you've ever had...that may go a lot into YOU feeling that he is indeed the BEST lover you've ever had...WIN-WIN . It seems like he has a pretty big ego though...but I could be wrong.

I have read the the biggest sex organ we have is our brain. We see it all the time on here where Waywards who first come on this site talk about how their A was DIFFERENT...they were REALLY in love with their adultery co-conspirator...UNTIL the reality hits that they were actually USED. That doesn't go well with what their brain was thinking at the time of their A. I've also seen it many times on here how BH's write that they thought their WW was the most beautiful woman they ever met...UNTIL they found out they were betrayed. Then it was hard to see them as beautiful...and even harder to make love to them...it was just sex after that. For ME...my H was the most honorable man I ever knew...which was VERY sexy to ME...UNTIL I found out he was just another cheater. Other BW's have similar feelings toward their WH's.

SO...with everything your WH has done...and also what he HASN'T done by not telling you the whole truth...how in the world can he possibly think HE is the BEST lover you've ever had???? But that does NOT mean that he can't one day BE that way...it is all up to HIM to get that biggest sex organ of yours to feel it .

I can’t help him, I feel I’m giving as much as I can to build up the relationship. And he thinks he’s doing lots . We are both correct.

You are right...y'all are both correct . That's a start!! The beauty of a marriage is TWO people who compromise for each other . Maybe the two of you can each do a compromise that will be JUST for the other person? Like...HE can go out to eat with you and just cuddle afterward instead of sex. AND...the next week YOU can go out to eat with him knowing that when y'all go to bed...there will be sex. Would this be something that y'all could start with?

So his take is in an ideal world he would have intimacy/sex every day. And that for him counts as care, appreciation etc. Especially after we would go out and truly enjoy the things we do. But like does it have to end in sex every time? It even got to the point where he said that we won’t go out on dates anymore! He admitted to bottling up his feelings and that yesterday’s event was the explosion of frustrations and built up resentments.

At the point where there are "built up resentments" how can that be anything other than entitlement? We don't build resentment over something we don't feel we have a right to have and then see it as being withheld. So, long and short, what he's saying is that he only takes you on dates so that you'll put out. That's so sexy, right? HOW did you ever manage not to rip his clothes off??

Hi Notaboringwife,

Im really sorry that nearly after four years you find yourself in this dilema. I really cant understand if your WS has suddenly had some kind of crisis in his life that he is constantly looking for validation. He went looking for external validation which he clearly got from his A with AP feeding his ego. Most likely he did have sex every day and probably more than once. Hence he wants afternoon as well as nightly sex. He clearly has a high sex drive whereas you dont. He doesnt seem to understand that and true statement being he doesnt care at all for your feelings and your needs. He only cares about himself. He sees it as If you dont give him sex than you dont appreciate or love him and I guess youre not good enough for him in his eyes. He is very selfish. He just wants you to be at his constant beck and call and only for sex it seems. Theres so much more to a marriage than sex. A date does not need to end leading to sex. Soemtimes the date itself is tiring and all you want to do is cuddle and go to bed.

I think you need to sit down and have a chat calmly and let him know that you dont have such a high sex drive like he does. He needs to understand and respect that rather than be selfish and get into an arguement about it and then take it out on you. He needs to also understand that people do get tired after a long day and the last thing they want is sex. Having sex every day also kind of becomes like a chore which will eventually become meaningless. There needs to be excitement and fire with the build up to sex and if youre doing it every day then all that will disappear. Im not sure what the fun is in that. He will just be using for a release and thats basically it. As gross as that sounds thats literally what he wants.

Only do what you want and how much your body can deal with. He cannot be asking you for sex every day and if you dont want it you should not give in. You should not also be afraid that if you dont give it to him he will start looking for external validation again. If he does than you know what to do. Boot him out of the house for good this time as you deserve so much better. You deserve better than being a nightly service to fulfill his boring desire.

((((NABW)))

I feel your pain. This has been an ongoing issue throughout our relationship, as far as him wanting sex, and me being meh about it. Especially since becoming post menopausal (which happened early for me).

He would love to have sex every single day. I honestly rarely feel the full on pull/desire to get funky. I have an autoimmune disease that leaves me in constant pain, and like you I am at my best late morning, through the afternoon. Of course with both of us working full time that puts some constraints on it. We just spent a weekend away w/ the camper, and fishing, and had a great round Saturday, and nap. It was awesome. Yesterday after 4 hours of driving him pulling the camper, me the boat, we arrive home and he is horned up and ready to go again. I was miserable. I was in a significant amount of discomfort. He has finally gotten to the point where he understands my disease a bit more, and was sweet enough to tell me to sit down, and he folded some laundry, and helped me w/ a few chores. In hopes I would be able to muster up the energy. I told him I was willing, but didn't want a long drawn out event. LOL. He chose to wait.

So being honest with each other, and being realistic on what is possible is also helpful. He knows daily sex will not happen, and he is cool with that, and honestly he is patient and kind most of the time, but we have had our fair share of discussions and arguments about "my lack of interest". We have worked through that though.

I would encourage him and you both to sit down and write out what your expectations of each other are and then discuss that and come to a mutually agreed upon answer that allows both you to feel happy, intimate, and satisfied. If he is unwilling to do that, well then may be worth a trip or two to an MC, or even a sex therapist to get some feedback, and help.
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The good news is these sound like "normal" marital (aka not just affair related) problems. The bad news is that they suck. To me this sounds like fantastic material for a marriage counselor to help with (unlike most A-related issued which really need to go to a trauma specialist IMO).

What you describe sounds like a covert contract as written in the book No More Mr. Nice Guy.

If you are not familiar with the book - the author is clear that "Nice Guys" are not very nice. It's a set of dysfunctional coping mechanisms

I say this as a BH who definitely made covert contracts. The book was instrumental in my personal healing. I came across the book referenced on an infidelity site (but it's not an infidelity specific work) and bought it and devoured it. I just reread it last week as a personal checkup. I don't think the book would have impacted me so positively if my wife gave it to me.

I think the material to be good info for wives, especially BWs.

[This message edited by jaynelovesvera at 6:57 PM, Monday, July 11th]

I feel your pain. This has been an ongoing issue throughout our relationship, as far as him wanting sex, and me being meh about it. Especially since becoming post menopausal (which happened early for me).

How can I tell him he's the greatest lover for me, when I've had better sex in my prior relationships? Do I lie?

The good news is these sound like "normal" marital (aka not just affair related) problems. The bad news is that they suck.

So many of us find ourselves in this pursuing/retreating sexual cycle, and we did too! It had led to years of so-so sexual encounters. In order to bear trying recovery with WH, we had to resolve this push-and-pull dynamic once and for all, whether I stay with my WH or not. I needed to prove to myself I was still capable of having a enjoyable sex life again. Maybe I’m too old, too prudish? Turns out, yes, I can enjoy intimacy, even when I haven’t totally forgiven WH, and I missed it when WH and I were so distanced and in a rut, but this demanding sex crap is SUCH-A-TURN-OFF. Something needed to change.

Since DDay I’ve found many good sources of info about sex and relationships. One of the most helpful regarding this topic is the podcast FOREPLAY RADIO - COUPLES AND SEX THERAPY with two therapist. They have a series of hundreds of 30 minute podcasts, many of which discuss the pursuer/withdrawer dance we all do in both our emotional and physical relationships. (Yes, a shoutout, but I have no affiliation) I’ve asked WH to listen, too.

Of course every couple is unique. The main thing that changed for us is we learned my pleasure has to be considered, if not become primary. Really, if WH wants a relationship with me, he needs to step up his game, both emotionally and physically. If I’m not satisfied, then the cycle continues, and it becomes a lose-lose situation. It’s pretty much got to be all about me. While this sounds so selfish, it makes sense. I’m the weak link and we need to devote the time and attention to bringing the weaker party to THE PARTY, so to speak. Being selfish in the bedroom is not something I’m comfortable with, and it takes a bit of determination and focus on my part, yet WH seems to find the task of encouraging me to be an easy and enjoyable one. While I don’t always reach the highest level, we both find intimacy more gratifying if we both are getting something out of it. This win-win approach helps to level out the frequency issue, too. Lastly, the attitude of being the receiver rather than giver helps to tramp down those damn triggers!

Best to you and thanks for sharing.

I pulled value from each one of your shared comments and I just don’t have the words to thank you all! 🙌

While healing from his infidelity put a damper on my sexual feelings for him, I do enjoy the lovemaking. He does everything I ask. And he loves it. And I love it.

It’s his expectation of daily and after a date sex that is the issue. But this expectation is recent. This year in fact, and this is what threw me off.

We will work through this. Whether it’s infidelity trauma driven or just a marriage issue.

And I know I have all of your support to help me out!

PS: I did buy the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy 👍
and I am looking into the FOREPLAY RADIO - COUPLES AND SEX THERAPY. 👍

Once again I can't thank you all enough.

What you describe sounds like a covert contract as written in the book No More Mr. Nice Guy.

If you are not familiar with the book - the author is clear that "Nice Guys" are not very nice. It's a set of dysfunctional coping mechanisms

I say this as a BH who definitely made covert contracts. The book was instrumental in my personal healing. I came across the book referenced on an infidelity site (but it's not an infidelity specific work) and bought it and devoured it. I just reread it last week as a personal checkup. I don't think the book would have impacted me so positively if my wife gave it to me.

I think the material to be good info for wives, especially BWs.

This on all fronts.

For a moment I will ask you suspend your knowledge of his history of infidelity and to consider that he could feel this way before, during, after or even with another woman had you two never met....basically, this is a personal issue he has with what he does for or with you and his lack of ability to communicate.

He has no excuse to cheat and I am not going to dignify any connection his I had with his "nice guy" M.O. Rather, it is very possible that he needs to discover why he has "NG" tendencies and address those areas.

Also unrelated to his I is the possibility...well, instead of suggesting please allow me to gently ask if you've ever weaponized sex? For posterity's sake let me be clear that this also would be 100% unrelated to any of his unfaithfulness. My W has admitted to doing this over the years and yet it was she who betrayed me.

I recommend you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. ROBERT GLOVER and then provide a copy to him. I don't agree with 100% of the book but 95% of it really helped me. There are some red flags you voice which I identified with. And please don't read my words as froma place of anger or as an attempt to crucify you. My words are coming from a place of seeing what appears to be a similar place of being stuck, seeing history repeat itself and hoping to help both of you.

Kindly,
NMFR

I'm so sorry you are going through this. If he wants to come clean about everything that happened, that would be helpful. Saying that you will use information against him tells me that he still wants to keep secrets. I understand your hesitation with him. I have been through this before and if he isn't willing to lay down all the secrets, then he's not ready to put the past behind him. For him to say he wants sex daily sounds like if he doesn't get things his way, he has a reason to leave. I'm concerned about what he's telling you. I know this is not easy. Very hard to navigate! But stand up for what you believe is right, even though things are very emotional right now. Things will get better if you are both willing to be honest. Hugs to you!

I can tell you that my WH also has stated that daily sexual contact is something he expects (most of this came out post DDays as his reasoning for cheating on me). I do believe that he expected me to give daily gratification...maybe not in the form of actual intercourse but a BJ or HJ as he's said.

He doesn't want intimacy, but just the sexual release. It was quite eye-opening that he really only viewed me as someone who was supposed to service his every desire. And his rationale was that if I would have just satisfied him daily in the realm then he would be happy, which means he wouldn't have cheated, which means I would have been happy and we'd have our happy little marriage.

I think if someone is demanding daily sex they have more than a few screws loose. (obviously not the same thing as two loving partners who enjoy daily sex as part of their intimate relationship)

Yup, us waywards miss the boat on the purpose of sex. For me it was a tool I used to keep my fear of abandonment at bay. For him it sounds like a tool he uses to keep his inadequacy issues at bay. And both ways of looking at it completely miss the boat on how much fun and connection and really joy in each other you can find in it.

Despite an ugly fight we had 2 nights ago, we made time to reconnect and watch a fun show (Netflix's how to build a sex room show ) and really thought about and discussed some of the kinkier stuff on it. And laughed our heads off!

Non-A related (and a complete generalization! The following doesn't fit EVERY couple's dynamic), but because of our hormonal cycles, us women really only feel rowdy and randy for about 1 week in our month- around the time of ovulation... for OBVIOUS built in reasons. That really does make us the "weakest link" in the chain. H was dissatisfied in our sex life for a long while because I wouldn't peak and orgasm. I didn't care to explore my sexuality because I had made sex about his satisfaction so he wouldn't leave me. What a drag, right?

Learning to receive was hard for me... I like a sense of control too. BUT, being selfish like this really has added to HIS arousal and enjoyment. It's allowed him to explore with me and gain a sense of competency and manliness by his pleasuring of me. And really added to his satisfaction as well . And seeing him feeling his masculinity grow with his competency in bed is a turn on for me too. It's a upward spiral/feedback mechanism. I want him more since he's got some new and improved moves. He wants me more because he's having fun figuring me out- like a puzzle for him . And I tend to LAUGH and LAUGH while we're experimenting- not out of derision, but out of the joy and absurdity that sex actually entails. He likes that too and we bond more on an emotional level from that. He knows he's "getting warmer" when I start giggling. It's a lot more fun than me "putting out" in a sense of duty and dread of him leaving.

As for the whole "date night" dynamic... H had trouble with this too- we'd often find ourselves digesting big meals and coming down off our drinks and really feeling too stodgy and sleepy to have the full fireworks show grand finale. For me, I'm a riser and shiner, so mornings are my best time. Mornings tend to be more the cuddling and mellow kind of love since we're both waking up, have morning breath and the kids are starting to move about. SO, the times we do go all out tend to be in the afternoon on a couple's trip or as a standalone "date night" in after the kids are in bed. With Benedryl and melatonin ...

Like tushnurse said, setting expectations and clearly communicating our energy and mood state can really go a long way. The brain is VERY much the biggest sex organ and FOREPLAY TAKES ALL DAY. Like, how sexy is it when H does the dishes for me and cleans the stove in his OCD way without me asking? That really puts me in a good mood and makes me think how manly he is for stepping up like that in consideration to me. Do you have little favors and helps that your WH could do for you during the day? Can he lighten your load so you have the energy at night to have some bedtime fun?

Either way, it sounds like you guys are dealing with problems everyone who's married a while deals with. MC for communication skills can go a long way. Maybe pitch it as a mutual benefit thing: "It seems our communication around needs, expectation and sex is dragging us down. I'd like us to go to a coach to learn new "plays" for our playbook so we can break this losing streak. I hope we can work out our day-to-day issues and our core issues in a more positive manner so I can have more energy for our sexy time during the day or at night. It pains me to see your hurt, and I hate it when we start resenting each other. Would you help me with this? I want us to be a better team so we can enjoy each other more."

I don't know if it will work, but it's worth a shot? Before throwing in the towel and having to put all that energy into a D, maybe see if it's worth the effort to fix it.

Not to defend him at all- his coping mechanisms for his inadequacy issues are utter garbage!- but I think his expectations and entitlement are really covering a deep wound. Learning better communication together can really help you guys make a safe space for each other to be vulnerable and have some actual understanding.

Wishing you the best. I'm practicing, but really not completely there yet with what I'm preaching here