SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi Everyone,

I(32F) hate that I'm back. My first and only post was in July 2021 about a month after finding out my wife(31F) was having an emotional affair with a girl(21F) she met online gaming. Since then, there's been a lot of back and fourth about what we both want to do. We're both in individual therapy but haven't started couples therapy (I feel like there's no point until she's 100% in it with me). She moved out of our place August 2021 and has been staying at her parents since then. She says that she's been working on herself a lot and trying to figure out what she wants in life. She's been dealing with a lot of depression and childhood trauma and stuff like that. Back in August 2021 when she moved out, we basically separated although we didn't say out load that that's what it was. We took off our rings, etc. and she was still talking and gaming with her AP. But we both really wanted to stay together or at least move towards working on things. She told me numerous times that they were no longer romantic and it was just friends (I didn't buy that). I attempted to move on and she didn't like that at all. We agreed that we didn't want to let each other go just yet without trying again. So that's what we did. This was around October 2021. She swore up and down to the ends of the earth that they were just friends and didn't even really talk that much. Which I obviously was not ok with, but she said she needed to let her go herself and not because I was asking her to so that she didn't resent me for that. So I gave her time. Every once in a while (actually all the time) I would check to see if they were gaming with each other. And yeah, they were. I confronted her about this a few times and it was always the same story. She would say its nothing and that she wants to work on things with me. Her and her AP ended up having some sort of falling out in December and no longer talked or gamed. I felt relieved at the time.

Then Christmas Eve rolls around and were at our place getting ready to leave to go to a family thing. She left her phone face up on the table and I saw she had an incoming call but the name was just an emoji. I immediately know who it was. I kept my mouth shut the entire night and faked nice with everyone even though I was seething inside. Once we got back I told her I know who called her and she said she didn't know why AP was calling and that they don't talk and she was going to delete her number. She reiterated the fact that she wants to be with me and continue to work on things.

Then in January 2022 I spoke to her about them being friends on social media. She said its not a big deal, they don't talk, she doesn't look at her Instagram, and to please just try to trust her. She also said her therapist doesn't see what the big deal is about that and that I need to go out on a limb and try to trust again and let her prove to me that she can be trusted. So I tried. Things were going well, she was being transparent with me and was trying to help me heal from all of this. But something didn't sit right with me about them being friends online, even IF they don't talk.

February we celebrated 12 years together (not marriage anniversary, but our original anniversary). Things we're going so well. We were being open about how things made us feel and things that we did that hurt each other in the past and talking through things. It seemed like we had turned a new leaf. Her birthday was in early April and I planned a really fun trip with some of our friends. We had a great time and she was so appreciative that I had planned this thing for her. We get back from our trip and she tells me that AP was calling and messaging her like crazy but that she ignored it. I was really glad she told me and she said that she is glad she can share something like this with me. I asked what this was about. She said AP saw in my Instagram a picture of my wife and I back in March and she was mad about that. The AP even messaged me and said things like, "I thought you guys weren't hanging out, I don't know what's going on, and that my wife wasn't being truthful with either of us." I asked my wife what she was talking about. She said she didn't know and doesn't know why she would say something like that because they haven't even talked in so long. I trusted what she said because I was really starting to trust her again.

Then my wife wants to take time off work to focus on school and therapy, etc. (by the way, she is still living at her parents during all of this). A few days ago she goes to see a Medium. She tells me what this Medium told her. And she said the Medium picked up on another person, and my wife asked why she has trouble letting go of this person and the medium says that they had a past life together and that she's not meant to let go, but that there are many paths in life that you can take and that her wife (me) loves her very much and that my wife will figure it out. SO when she told me that I of course lost my mind once again. I feel like I am right at the beginning again. My wife is taking these 3 weeks off work to think about things like if she wants to be with me or not. I told her if she does, then she is severing all ties with this person for good and that I will no longer let her disrespect me anymore! These 3 weeks are the longest weeks of my life and I hate that I'm even giving her time to think about this. She either does or doesn't want to go all in with me. I don't know if she's expecting some revelation or answer from the universe but I'm over it. She says she loves me so much and that she see's us in the future and wants to work on things but she needs to think before she lets this person go completely. I feel like I know what you all are going to say but, please advise.

[This message edited by clrsrz at 11:09 PM, Monday, April 25th]

Hi, sorry you find yourself back here, I went back to your original post.

Gently, your wife is playing ping pong with your life. She wants her cake and eat it too, time to close the bakery.

The story about the medium is so far-fetched, it's laughable. She's using it as an excuse to continue contact with AP.

Sorry.

You've been living apart for nine months, sounds like she stepped away from the marriage.

It takes YEARS to rebuild trust, you cannot trust a word out of her mouth right now.

Seek out a good attorney for knowledge.

So she goes to a medium without her wedding ring and tells the Medium she;s married and the medium magically picks up on a 3rd person?
Riiiggghhhhtttt. This is EXACTLY what a medium told a friend of mine about her cheating ex. Pretty much word for word.
Complete nonsense. I am not buying what her IC said either— or that the IC got the full story.

You obviously are a caring person. But you;’ve been doing the pick me dance for a long time now.
And she still can’t decide? Well you can. What does your IC say?

It’s time to put yourself first. It’s not your job to trust her. It’s her job to re-EARN your trust. And so far she’s failing at that miserably.
What are YOUR requirements for R? 100% transparency? Complete NC ? Off of all SM? What would make you feel safe and like she’s all in? Write it out, and don’t settle for less.

(BTW, good call on no MC).

I’m sorry she hasn’t pulled her head out of her ass. I know it hurts. But you get to drive, friend. It’s your life.

A few days ago to goes to see a Medium. She tells me what this Medium told her. And she said the Medium picked up on another person, and my wife asked why she has trouble letting go of this person and the medium says that they had a past life together….blah, blah, blah, etc.

From what you have described, it’s just manipulative bullshit followed by more manipulative bullshit.

It sounds exhausting.

It should not have to be so difficult, dramatic, and convoluted.

A medium? For fucks sake…what’s next, alignment of the stars?

This kind of needy narcissistic bullshit never gets better.

The more she’s able to betray your trust and milk your extremely patient and abuse-tolerant nature, the more she will keep doing it.

Suffering at the whim of her willfully indecisive and childish bullshit is a choice.

I’m sorry for you. You deserve better than this.

The only way things will change is if you change. If you continue to allow your wife time to make a decision, she will continue to lie and cheat.

She had "no idea" why the AP is calling and texting like crazy? 🤔 hmm…I doubt that is the truth.

You are right that marriage counseling doesn’t make sense b/c your wife is not committed to the marriage. Your wife is basically using your patience as an opportunity to date the AP until she "figures out what she wants".

I suggest that you give her the ultimatum - you or the AP. If she doesn’t say "you my wife" immediately then you know she’s not worth reconciling with b/c she’s not committed to the marriage.

And it may be that you need to develop an exit strategy just in case.

Listen I hope you just stick around regardless of the advice. The only logical advice I can give you based on your situation is "simply" to end this farce, you really don't have a M, don't wait 3 weeks, just file for D and get out of infidelity, you deserve so much better than this proven unremorseful and unrepentant cheater and liar, life's too short, don't forget to get tested for STDs.

I'm not a "medium" or any type of psychic but based on what you posted I can tell you with almost certainty that you would most likely do so much better in life without her, again don't wait 3 weeks, she's SHOWN you who she is, believe her, act TODAY and dump her, don't even entertain the idea of giving her yet another chance, you are more than likely wasting precious years of your life with this cake eater.

The advice I gave you six months ago would not change one bit.

Quite honestly I would approach this differently. I would tell her I did not get married to be in a 3 person relationship.

I’d actually push her toward the AP, whether she is real or not.

Here’s words I’d use if I were in your shoes.

"It is clear you have feelings for this person. If you can find your happiness with her instead of me, I cannot stand in your way. I want a partner how is all in with me and only me. So go and explore what you think you have with them, and in the meantime I will do the work to legally end our marriage. It seems it’s not important to you to be married to me anyway.

And let me be perfectly clear, I don’t want you unless you have eliminated this person from your life completely, and that includes from your heart. Unless you see them as someone who helped you destroy your marriage and a force of evil in your world, then there is no place for me in your life.

And if we were ever to work to rebuild, please note, gaming and online communication would be prohibited in our relationship and individual therapy with an infidelity specialist would be required.

I wish you well on the path uou have chosen "

Then stop discussing it. Talk to a lawyer. Start the process.

Honestly there is not other way to do it. You don’t want a life w someone who is pining away for another, especially someone she’s actually never seen or met.

I hope you will consider doing this. I think you will find the results yo be positive.

You have put way to much time and effort into a person who clearly cannot make a commitment to you. She is no longer in love with you unfortunately.

I hope you can find a way to move on. She is jerking your chain and just keeping you around because you are letting her.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:23 AM, Tuesday, April 26th]

I called the Psychic Hotline, and the lady who answered told me that your wife is still cheating.

Sorry to make light of the situation but GMAB. That Medium thing is the most obvious lie I've ever heard.

I feel your pain. I was betrayed, too, loved and lost and am happier now that I'm on my own, than I was walking on eggshells around my cheater ex. The separation process hurts a lot but the pain goes away after you've been absolutely no contact for a while. I'm sorry you have to walk through the fire, but it's time. Leave her. She doesn't love you.

The good thing about this situation is that you're young, so if you act now and don't let yourself be strung along for another 10 years before she inevitably dumps you for some rando, you'll be in a good position to find another partner. Get in-depth pre-marital counseling before tying the knot next time.

[This message edited by morningglory at 2:47 AM, Tuesday, April 26th]

I'm sorry that your WW continues to drag you through this.

Is your relationship really worth much to your WW if she's going to let some bullshit scam artist "Medium" have any influence over the future of it? Ok, maybe your WW has a head full of a bunch of fantasy nonsense and it's all very deep and meaningful to her. How can you ever depend on someone in a relationship if they can decide at any moment that they were meant to be with some random OP because of "another life?" You can't.

You're never going to win this fantasy game that she's dragged you into. It's like you're doing the "pick me" dance in World of Warcraft or whatever fantasy world she's living in. You never win that dance. Even if you end up with her in the end you're just stuck wondering whether it was because you won or the fantasy just started to crumble.

Your WW needs a hard dose of reality. Tell her that "there can be only one" and she needs to agree to go NC with this AP and commit herself fully to your marriage. That means full transparency and monitoring. And no contact means NO CONTACT. Don't give her a deadline but tell her you won't wait forever for a decision. Then set a deadline for yourself and stick to it.

Meanwhile read up on the 180 and start focusing on what you want for your life going forward with or without your WW. You can be happy again either way if you start to accept the idea.

Best of luck.

I suggest that you give her the ultimatum - you or the AP. If she doesn’t say "you my wife" immediately then you know she’s not worth reconciling with b/c she’s not committed to the marriage.

I humbly disagree.

If a relationship moving on counts on the basis of an ultimatum, then there is no real relationship.

An ultimatum given will be decided with reluctance and regret no matter what choice is ultimately made.

Relationships can’t work based on ultimatums given by one to the other.

A relationship is 100% mutually based on both, without reluctance or regret, wanting to be together.

As far as making decisions in this case goes, the decision should most definitely not be hers to make between you and her fantasy friend.

The only decision here is for YOU to make.

That decision is choosing to remain dealing with your wife’s childish games for years to come, or, to be free of it.

Thanks everyone for the input. I agree, the Medium stuff is really far-fetched and the only reason that stuff bothers me is because she believes it. But she said that she is going to make her decisions not based on that. But I believe is has complicated things and it wasn't a good idea. Too late now though.

As far as what my therapist says, she explained to me anytime something happens like this between my wife and I, I cling on even more. She wants me to try to let go and see what happens. And to choose me. She also says that I should not give ultimatums unless I am willing to act on them so I am very hesitant to give an ultimatum. I agree with keptmyword, if she chooses me because I give an ultimatum then I think both of us wont feel good about that.

To answer your question, BearlyBreathing, my requirements for R would be complete NC (which includes a goodbye message that we write together) and by NC I mean not friends on any social media, delete WhatsApp (how they communicate), and 100% transparency (like me being able to look through her phone without her freaking out), and giving me all passwords. And then marriage counseling.

I agree that things will only change if I change. I'm just working on the timing of all of that. Not sure when or how. Part of me wants to wait the 3 weeks to see what she says, because if its close to what she's told me in the past (she tells me things I want to hear and makes it seem like she's choosing me, while she is able to continue to get what she wants), it will be very comedic and honestly will force me to act immediately.

Clrsrz ,

Your therapist is giving good advise. Choose you.
And watch your WS’ actions only - words are cheap and easy and have no meaning. It’s her actions that matter.

Good luck.

My suggestion?

Tell her you've chosen and you are choosing you and severing contact with her. Take back the power.

Believe me, it will feel great.

Look I gave my xwh 'time to let go' too. I get that - I didn't want to make any demands that might make him choose her. Of all the many many mistakes I made after dday, that was one of the major ones. What I should have done was give him 30 seconds to decide if he was gonna shit or get off the pot with our marriage, and then proceed accordingly.

You are under NO obligation to:
1. let your wife 'gently let go' of her affair partner
2. trust your wife (she is proving over and over and over again that she is patently NOT a trustworthy person right now)
3. give her 'time'
4. believe anything she says right now
5. be 'understanding' and kind about her jerking you around (because that is exactly what she's doing IMHO)

I know it's really scary to take a hard stand because of the fear that it might 'scare them off'. But the truth of it in my case was that if me saying NO to my 37 yo husband having a fling with an 18 yo girl was going to make him run, then I should have just opened the gate and let him go immediately. I wasted 9 months of my life trying to 'fix' a marriage that was already dead and it did nothing but cause me more pain and heartache that I would just as soon not dealt with.

I can only ask you to NOT do what I did and allow contact to continue.. It took nearly 3 yrs for my WW to go NC with her AP and I have to say that by that time R is alot harder to even contemplate let alone achieve. She used all the excuses of bring best friends, him needing her, her needing him in her life, etc etc.

Do what I should have done,
1. File for D.. It starts the clock and let's her know this is real.
2. Demand nc
3. Transparency in ALL areas, there are to be no more grey areas
4. Burden of proof is on her, do not become the marriage police, let her do the work to prove NC to you.
5. Do not go gentle on her, she has ridden all over your feelings by having an affair, she needs to do nearly ALL of the hard work to fix this, and if she isn't willing to, call it a day ASAP and go find someone worthy of you.

I wish someone had given me the 2x4 earlier, could have saved me years of heartache.

She also says that I should not give ultimatums unless I am willing to act on them so I am very hesitant to give an ultimatum. I agree with keptmyword, if she chooses me because I give an ultimatum then I think both of us wont feel good about that.

Absolutely true about enforcement. If you take a stand and then cave, you will have an even more difficult time enforcing a boundary of yours in the future.

I agree that an ultimatum won't work if someone feels forced in one direction, whether they want to go in that direction or not. They work fine is the target realizes they have a free choice and chooses to comply.

Consider yourself: your W has issued her own ultimatum - that she will take time to make her own decision and that you will have to wait. Perhaps you're having trouble with that because you feel forced to wait, but you don't want to.

An ultimatum is just another boundary - all it says is that you'll go one way, if the target does or doesn't do something.

I think you'll see - if you look - that every one of us who is happy in R activated a strong boundary (that is, you can have me or your ap, not both). Some did it earlier, some later. Some in a soft way, some with a hard limit. We all knew that our WSes could choose their aps. We just decided we'd had enough indecision.

...my requirements for R would be complete NC (which includes a goodbye message that we write together) and by NC I mean not friends on any social media, delete WhatsApp (how they communicate), and 100% transparency (like me being able to look through her phone without her freaking out), and giving me all passwords. And then marriage counseling.

Gently, that's not enough to make a successful R, IMO.

IMO, you need to take 3 further steps. First you need to figure out what you want your M to be. Second, you need to talk with your W to lay out for her what you want and see if she signs on or negotiates a satisfactory alternative; she gets to tell you what she wants, and you have to choose to sign on or negotiate. Third, you need to define how you'll know you're on or off track.

That means you need to define the M you want in observable, measurable terms.

Also, MC treats your M. Your M didn't fail - your W did. She needs IC with a goal of changing from cheater to good partner. She needs to address her enablers for cheating, and she needs to drop them.

MC might help you negotiate the requirements for R, but it won't fix your WS.

I'm blunt because my time is limited today. I understand your pain. I understand that your W may still be cheating and may leave you whether she's cheating or not.

I also think you can make better choices for yourself, and I hope you are at least beginning to understand that.

EllieKMAS, thank you, you totally get how I'm feeling. And I agree with you. The other times that I've given her "time" I've regretted and said I wouldn't do that again. I feel stupid for doing it again. I keep reading your comment over and over, soaking it in.

StrugglingCJ, that's exactly what I don't want to do. Just put it on the back burner and boom, 3 years go by and they're still "friends". I find it really hard to trust if they have any means of being able to contact each other. I feel like there's no way of moving on or healing until the AP is completely gone. I agree with your list too. That is what I want.

sisoon, yes, I have a hard time seeing the difference between giving an ultimatum and enforcing a boundary. I plan to ask my therapist today about it. And thank you for the advice about successful R. I truly did not think about those things. We have talked before about what kind of marriage we do want, and we both want the same thing. But how we would know if its off track is something I need to think about because I'm not sure. And having her address her enablers for cheating and drop them, has me really thinking. This is great information.

I really appreciate every one of you so much! Especially the comments about going through the same thing and what you would have done differently. I'm just deciding when to act. I feel like I am on the verge of doing so. But what makes it insanely difficult is that we still say I love you all the time and we still do fun things together and make dinner together and hold hands, etc. But now I'm starting to wonder if its all fake...

Love is only part of a successful relationship. Respect, honor, care, empathy, intelligence and safety are some components that make up the rest.

In other words, love is not enough to ensure happiness.

My wife is the most important person to me (along with children) than anyone else in the world. We have a saying, an agreement, that we have lived by. If anyone makes the other uncomfortable in a way that threatens our bond, our vows, our marriage, we let them go from our life forever. No contact.

Nothing is more important than our marriage. No friendship is. Forsaking all others means something.

If your wife sees the relationship with another person as equally or more important than the one with your marriage, then you don’t really have a marriage. You just have a legal document saying you are married.

It is not enough to say she will go nc and eliminate them from her day to day life. She must go further if she is going to repair the damage to your relationship.

She needs to remove them from her heart as well. That’s not easy to do. But she needs to see them as the true threat to your marriage that he is.

And if it were me, I would tell her that. That I did not sign up to be part of a 3 way relationship. And so I am letting her go pursue the happiness she seeks elsewhere.

That I would let her know exactly what I need to explore a relationship with her. And that includes in my book, monogamy, and a partner that puts my needs above anyone else’s (except perhaps children) and equal to her own needs as I would do for her, as long as her needs do not conflict with monogomy.

And that until she can prove this to you, it’s best you move on, begin the long process of healing, and eventually finding someone whose love passion and commitment fully matches yours.

Hope you can take this step. Without taking it I think you will find yourself in a constant state of limbo.

Please think about taking it sooner than later, you may never feel ready. Sometimes you have to force yourself to take the first step.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 5:14 AM, Tuesday, May 3rd]

I agree that its not enough to just go NC and that she must repair the damage done to the relationship. the issue there is that she likes to talk about how we got here, which includes things that I've done in the past. The main issues to her are that Im closed off and not as sensitive and she thinks that I don't have emotions (which is not true, I do, I just don't wear my heart on my sleeve), among other things like that. Nothing like betrayal. But she seems to have a real hard time forgiving me for this stuff. When she brings these things up I do feel bad and I apologize and explain that that's not how I am, at least not anymore. But it's not enough.

I agree that we have things to work out from our past. But I can't work on that stuff until we resolve the elephant in the room, which is, if she even wants to be with me. I explained that I don't feel safe enough yet to work on our past, I need to know if we're staying together or not. I don't see the point in doing any of that until we figure out which direction were heading.

Im just super confused right now. I feel like the bad guy. Am I wrong for not wanting to work on our past until we figure out what I think is the main issue here??? I don't see the point. And Im not sure why she's contemplating all of this at the moment.

She wants to fight about how you left socks on the floor in the bedroom when she just burned the f#@*#&@(g house down. There are no socks. There is no bedroom. There is no house.

You cannot address any past issues until you rebuild the house. And SHE BURNED IT DOWN. Not you.

She’s blameshifting and blaming you for her A. That is wrong wrong wrong. Maybe you weren’t perfect - who is?
But she had many other options to work with that— communicate with you, marriage counseling, separation, even divorce. But she chose to have an A. She chose. Not a mistake, not something you drove her to. She made that choice.

She is not accepting responsibility for her actions. She is not showing true remorse. (Re-read the post about remorse vs regret.)

I am so sorry.