SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But that was the reality--I was an inadequate lover in her eyes, clearly.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Your wife didn't cheat because the sex wasn't good. She didn't cheat because you were to nice/mean, smart/dumb, hot/cold, fat/thin.

NEVER EVER allow yourself to own her choices. She chose over and over to lie, manipulate, abuse, and destroy your relationship because she is a mentally broken person. PERIOD.

NOT one BS here was a victim of infidelity because of their shortcomings, and if they/you believe that, it is proof of the trauma you have sustained, and the help you need to heal yourself.

Has anyone recommended the PDF quick read No More Mr Nice Guy? I can't remember. It's not about being mean or vindictive, but rather taking some control back of the situation and not allowing your WS to guilt, shame, or manipulate the BS. I think it would be very good for you to read that as soon as possible.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Your wife didn't cheat because the sex wasn't good. She didn't cheat because you were to nice/mean, smart/dumb, hot/cold, fat/thin.

NEVER EVER allow yourself to own her choices. She chose over and over to lie, manipulate, abuse, and destroy your relationship because she is a mentally broken person. PERIOD.

NOT one BS here was a victim of infidelity because of their shortcomings, and if they/you believe that, it is proof of the trauma you have sustained, and the help you need to heal yourself.

Has anyone recommended the PDF quick read No More Mr Nice Guy? I can't remember. It's not about being mean or vindictive, but rather taking some control back of the situation and not allowing your WS to guilt, shame, or manipulate the BS. I think it would be very good for you to read that as soon as possible.

Truthfully, I don’t think I’m an objectively bad lover. If I was taking a polygraph, I’d say I was good in bed. But the facts still are that wife couldn’t get herself going for me, she needed to exit her mundane regular life and engage in a fantasy world to get herself into sex—that’s certainly on her, but it still feels bad for me. I now need her to fix herself and find her passion with me or R is out the window.

As for No More Mr. Nice Guy, I’m reading it, but thus far I don’t relate to it. I’m not really a "nice guy" as defined by the author—in fact, if anything, I wish I had more of those traits. I think my lack of compassion is one of my worst vices.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 9:17 PM, Wednesday, March 30th]

so to flip a switch and ask her to retell me the stories in a sexy way so I can jerk off would be just too fucked up for both of us. I just don't think that's a viable path forward.

I think you know this is a lunatic idea. The fact that you're thinking it at all is evidence of the crazy emotional roller coaster we BH's go through in the first phase of this process.

If you were, in the future, to indulge your c fantasy, it should be only in the context of a healthy relationship based on honesty, respect, and choice, and it should be within the boundaries of mutually agreed-upon rules.

But the facts still are that wife couldn’t get herself going for me, she needed to exit her mundane regular life and engage in a fantasy world to get herself into sex—that’s certainly on her, but it still feels bad for me.

If you read many threads here, you'll find this phenomenon exists in a huge majority of cheating wife threads. Part of the cheating for a lot of wives is convincing themselves that their husbands are bad spouses and unworthy as mates. There are dozens upon dozens of threads here where, in hindsight, the betrayed husband can pinpoint when the wife's affair started by the drop-off in sex, often coupled with her rejecting or belittling him sexually. That's not because these husbands suddenly became bad lovers. It's because a cheating woman needs to find a way to justify the cheating to herself.

Despite this, the feelings of emasculation and sexual humiliation that you are experiencing, those feelings are felt by a lot of betrayed me. Perhaps most. Most of us commenting here, brothers in betrayal, have felt this. It's a legitimate question to ask yourself: whether you can ever get over those feelings in the context of this marriage. Will you ever feel confident and sanguine that her sexual desire for you is not ersatz?

It is perfectly legitimate to say to her: "Wife, you have shown me with your actions that you prefer Constable Cocksman as a sexual partner. I love you and want you to be happy and fulfilled. Therefore, I want you to know that I am freeing you to diddle Deputy Dickler as often as you like, wherever you like. But not as my wife. I won't share you with another man. Therefore, to give you the freedom your actions have told me you crave, I am taking steps to end this marriage."

I now need her to fix herself and find her passion with me or R is out the window.

That is the crux of R. The ephemeral matter of the heart, I call it. Can you two ever reach a place where you can believe, in your deepest recesses, that her desire for you is real? It could take years to figure out. Is she a long distance runner? As you describe her, it doesn't seem so.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:10 AM, Thursday, March 31st]

I have, a few times. This is the first according to her.

The reason I asked this is because if you are considering R, it’s important to start with the whole truth, all of it.

Make sure she understands she has to put everything in her timeline, then you verify it with a polygraph.

That will give you a good starting point to make your decision about R or D.

If you discover in a few years something else that happened, it will be D day all over again.

And all those issues with alcohol, spending attention seeking from other men…
It "feels" to me like there is more that you don’t know.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 12:01 PM, Thursday, March 31st]

The reason I asked this is because if you are considering R, it’s important to start with the whole truth, all of it.

Make sure she understands she has to put everything in her timeline, then you verify it with a polygraph.

That will give you a good starting point to make your decision about R or D.

If you discover in a few years something else that happened, it will be D day all over again.

And all those issues with alcohol, spending attention seeking from other men…
It "feels" to me like there is more that you don’t know.

Her descent began shortly after the pandemic, which aligned with her new social life and increased drinking. She took on additional responsibilities (namely dealing with schooling and childcare for our children while also working full time). Also, as a generally anxious person, the situation of the pandemic affected her (way more than me).

From that perspective, the affair took more than a year to take hold. By late 2021, the groundwork had been laid by the stress of the last year. Once interest from the OM hit, she was willing to follow the rabbit hole.

I note all that just to point out that a previous affair would have had entirely different circumstances. Not to say it couldn’t have happened, just that the triggers from this one were relatively new in her life.

And the out of control spending? When and in what context did the reach problematic proportions? What triggered that doc?

Her descent began shortly after the pandemic, which aligned with her new social life and increased drinking. She took on additional responsibilities (namely dealing with schooling and childcare for our children while also working full time). Also, as a generally anxious person, the situation of the pandemic affected her (way more than me).

From that perspective, the affair took more than a year to take hold. By late 2021, the groundwork had been laid by the stress of the last year. Once interest from the OM hit, she was willing to follow the rabbit hole.

I think the flaw in your thinking is that you're trying to explain her infidelity by tying her behavior to external events. I understand why you're doing it (we've all been there). However, it's her core values.

However, your wife is not the only person that experienced the above (including anxiety) - but they didn't cheat. Your wife had other options to deal with changes and stress in her life - but she chose (deceitfully planned and executed) to cheat.

Until she digs deeper and understands why she decided to cheat and how to manage her behavior/thinking she is high risk to repeat. And not necessarily this year or next year (or with the cop).

Among other things, cheaters share certain characteristics (in the context of marriage) that allow them to cheat: selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lacking empathy for their spouse. That doesn't make them a bad mother or member of the church or community - but it does make them a high risk life partner and vulnerable to repeat.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 1:21 PM, Thursday, March 31st]

And the out of control spending? When and in what context did the reach problematic proportions? What triggered that doc?

Her spending has been an issue her entire life. She has never valued money. It’s been a point of conflict for us constantly. The wild spending that led her to cut up her credit cards hit a peak about five years ago. The spending during the affair, was especially hurtful because it was money spent on the OM.

I think the flaw in your thinking is that you're trying to explain her infidelity by tying her behavior to external events. I understand why you're doing it (we've all been there). However, it's her core values.

However, your wife is not the only person that experienced the above (including anxiety) - but they didn't cheat. Your wife had other options to deal with changes and stress in her life - but she chose (deceitfully planned and executed) to cheat.

Until she digs deeper and understands why she decided to cheat and how to manage her behavior/thinking she is high risk to repeat. And not necessarily this year or next year (or with the cop).

Among other things, cheaters share certain characteristics (in the context of marriage) that allow them to cheat: selfish, entitled, deceitful, and lacking empathy for their spouse. That doesn't make them a bad mother or member of the church or community - but it does make them a high risk life partner and vulnerable to repeat.

You’re doing to me exactly what I keep doing to her lol. Her decision to have the affair has nothing to do with anything other than her being of incredibly low moral character. We all agree—including her. The question I was answering involved her likelihood to lie about a previous affair. I can understand the logic of why she wouldn’t have had an affair previously, so it hasn’t left me overly suspicious.

As for the future, you’re right. The fact that any situation justified an affair in her mind means that she could easily justify another affair down the line. Essentially, it’s not a bridge too far for her, and now I am willfully engaged in a relationship with such a person. Had I met her for a date now, and she told me this as a story about her marriage, the red flag would be too significant to ignore and I wouldn’t get involved.

But I am involved, so I am giving her a chance to improve herself before I just walk away.

I think she’s already made some progress—acknowledging that her parents fucked her up a bit and that she hasn’t gotten support from them in all the ways she needed. In fact, I think it’s clear she held some resentment for me and my family because of how supportive they are of me.

The CT has picked up on all of this as well and was really digging into it with her—focused on all the historic male presences in her life and her search for "protection," and her use of sex as a tool rather than an act of love. Something I fully agree with—I think she has entirely disassociated sex and love.

My wife has some deep issues and for the first time in her life she’s staring them in the face and not running from them.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 2:17 PM, Thursday, March 31st]

Spending was an issue for my FWW also. It made me feel quite taken advantage of.

About 12 months ago I needed the patience of Job for a few months. In FWW’s mind she was reconfiguring her life. She was actually acting like a child. I had to say, ‘what would happen if I acted in a way similar to what you have?’ I resisted the urge to show her.

It hurt to have to be stern, because I thought she valued me as one of the best things which had happened to her, after a bit of a deprived start in life. Somehow that all evaporated for a few months. She was avoiding me, spending big with no discussion, avoiding sex, timetabling activities for herself obsessively, running herself into the ground with this and then using tiredness as an excuse, speaking dismissively about conventional relationships, and exploring lesbian ones.

I can be tough as nails (career litigator and life-long martial artist, although a bookish one). I had to make it clear that many of the things which she had come to regard as atmosphere, which were invisible to her in that moment, were in fact conditional on commitment, trust and mutual sustained effort. I said that I would much rather be with her, the mother of my children, than someone else, but not at any cost. I implemented some rough and ready 180 measures, simple ones like rejoining the gym and not consulting too much about it, and going for some long bush walks with the dog.

I think she got a glimpse about how much her life would suck if I laid down the burdens I have always carried without much complaint. She also knows I am a good Dad. Then she was the one with insomnia instead of me, and even crashed the car.

Things have improved quite a lot this year.

My wife has always had issues. She was drawn to the fact that I was a mix of upright and tolerant. She lost sight of my value for a while in a heady mix of late middle-aged existential crisis, bisexual acting out, peri-menopause and a bucket load of other things which we had been able to navigate okay up to that point.

I believe in large part what we are seeing from you are mistakes we've all made, especially BH's.

I made every excuses in the book, even through I was set on divorce. My wifes parents allow her to take the lead, they never held her accountable for her actions nor did they force her to face the consequences. I continued this. My wife was selfish and had a bit of a diva attitude. Her behavior during her affair was odd ( she was never mean or disrespectful up front).

After we divorced I spent alot of time reevaluating. After a conversation with her sister who simply stated "I grew up in the same house with the same parents" it finally and really sunk in that this was all on her, 100%. I also started to realize that her behavior during the affair wasn't isolated. I believe in time most BS come to realize this

I'm not saying you should move right to divorce, I'm saying I don't think its wise to be all in on R. Sunk-cost fallacy, you are taking minimal ADJUSTMENTS in your wife as signs of great movement. Continuing to invest heavily in something that would likely be more advantageous to abandon.

At some point, you will realize its more likely that your wife is simply a woman, who independently decided you are unworthy of trust and honesty, she decided that you were unworthy of respect and dignity. When it happens all the excuses and almost blind devotion to her will make you sick.

Not a unicorn, just another cheater.

Sorry, wrong thread.

[This message edited by Sanibelredfish at 4:59 PM, Thursday, March 31st]

Make sure she understands she has to put everything in her timeline, then you verify it with a polygraph.

The flaws in this are at a minimum that it's impossible to put everything in a timeline for an A and that something that is important to you might be trivial to your W and vice versa.

So the timeline is bound to miss stuff in every case, and it may be totally unintentionally misleading. Remember: the poly is limited to a few yes/no questions.

Don't get me wrong - the TL can be very useful, if your W writes it out and you discuss it and get your questions answered. Discussion, not so BTW, has the added benefit of surfacing additional memories, and you can clear the air about those topics, too.

Finally, If next year you think you've gotten some TT, you can check the TL to find out if the TT was, in fact, mentioned.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:20 PM, Thursday, March 31st]

OP, I think the biggest issue is when your wife talked so disdainfully about you with her mother, the bus incident in winter. If she just had "meaningless" sex that would be easier to work through but how she talked about you to her mother showed utter disdain, no respect, as if you were just an annoyance. That is no sign of love. Her mother is no better either, she just wants her kid in a stable relationship that's why she wants her to be with you.

Dr

This is your life and your relationship. I just wanted to say that I think you are doing a good job listening to the advice of those who have suffered similar circumstances before you, synthesizing it, and applying it where you deem appropriate to your recovery.

This is not a science. But there are generally successful steps that seem to work in such grim situations. You’ve implemented some of them, decided to postpone others.

It’s fair to say that we all have free will in how we handle what happens after finding out that our partner has betrayed trust so drastically.

I would probably D if I were in your position. Her actions fired me as her husband is what I would assume and she broke the vows we agreed to on our wedding day so that to me would mean the marriage was nullified.

Whether I’d give her another chance down the road would be based on whether she did the work necessary to fix herself and build something new with me, and if after that I had it in my heart to try and do that building with her.

You’ve decided to come from another direction. It’s your prerogative and valid as well.

Keep up what you are doing. I do also hope you’ll find a way to get yourself into IC. I think it’s important.

Spending was an issue for my FWW also. It made me feel quite taken advantage of.

About 12 months ago I needed the patience of Job for a few months. In FWW’s mind she was reconfiguring her life. She was actually acting like a child. I had to say, ‘what would happen if I acted in a way similar to what you have?’ I resisted the urge to show her.

It hurt to have to be stern, because I thought she valued me as one of the best things which had happened to her, after a bit of a deprived start in life. Somehow that all evaporated for a few months. She was avoiding me, spending big with no discussion, avoiding sex, timetabling activities for herself obsessively, running herself into the ground with this and then using tiredness as an excuse, speaking dismissively about conventional relationships, and exploring lesbian ones.

I can be tough as nails (career litigator and life-long martial artist, although a bookish one). I had to make it clear that many of the things which she had come to regard as atmosphere, which were invisible to her in that moment, were in fact conditional on commitment, trust and mutual sustained effort. I said that I would much rather be with her, the mother of my children, than someone else, but not at any cost. I implemented some rough and ready 180 measures, simple ones like rejoining the gym and not consulting too much about it, and going for some long bush walks with the dog.

I think she got a glimpse about how much her life would suck if I laid down the burdens I have always carried without much complaint. She also knows I am a good Dad. Then she was the one with insomnia instead of me, and even crashed the car.

Things have improved quite a lot this year.

My wife has always had issues. She was drawn to the fact that I was a mix of upright and tolerant. She lost sight of my value for a while in a heady mix of late middle-aged existential crisis, bisexual acting out, peri-menopause and a bucket load of other things which we had been able to navigate okay up to that point.

Excellent post. Thank you for commenting. I agree with you entirely. My wife got to design her dream house before the age of 30 and had me run off and build it. No mortgage and Im handle all the medical benefits. I'm wearing pants right now that I've owned for 10~ years--because all my expendable income goes toward saving for retirement and my children. Her ability to spend so frivolously is a gift from me and she has no comprehension of that.

Dr. I just wanted to add that I felt exactly the same as you do regarding our sexual performance. I struggle with ED problems to this day, it started right after dday. The pills help with this to a certain extent. To me, I felt like I was fighting a ghost in the bedroom for a long time. This, for me, was complicated by the fact my wife is my one and only partner, so I don’t really have any reference when it comes to other partners.

The fantasy thing was something that we had too, not the same, but similar. After dday, there was no way we could continue this fantasy anymore. Another loss related to infidelity.

It did take me a long time to come to grips with the sexual aspects of the A‘s. Over time, that has lessened, but there lying and gaslighting is still something that I think about and to this day, does upset me, but time does a lot to heal those wounds, but I don’t think they ever go away completely.

The flaws in this are at a minimum that it's impossible to put everything in a timeline for an A and that something that is important to you might be trivial to your W and vice versa.

So the timeline is bound to miss stuff in every case, and it may be totally unintentionally misleading. Remember: the poly is limited to a few yes/no questions.

Don't get me wrong - the TL can be very useful, if your W writes it out and you discuss it and get your questions answered. Discussion, not so BTW, has the added benefit of surfacing additional memories, and you can clear the air about those topics, too.

Finally, If next year you think you've gotten some TT, you can check the TL to find out if the TT was, in fact, mentioned.

I now feel reasonably confident I have an accurate timeline of events that are significant to me from the last several months. She has still been working on her timeline separately--and it's getting VERY long. From what I can gather, she is focused much more on her feelings throughout the affair and recording various instances I will likely fund mundane. Still, I'm looking forward to completing the task and I hope it gives some closure to the affair.

OP, I think the biggest issue is when your wife talked so disdainfully about you with her mother, the bus incident in winter. If she just had "meaningless" sex that would be easier to work through but how she talked about you to her mother showed utter disdain, no respect, as if you were just an annoyance. That is no sign of love. Her mother is no better either, she just wants her kid in a stable relationship that's why she wants her to be with you.

You're right: her lack of respect for me throughout the affair is something I can't fully process. And seeing her flip this switch to now being loving and devoting to me leaves me very suspicious of her. I disagree that her only connection to me is our children though. I do believe her now that she regrets the affair and genuinely loves me--that's not my concern--my concern is how easily she slipped into the affair, making me have to assume it could happen again.

I think some of you caught on early in this thread and others perhaps haven't. But I was oblivious to the depth of her psychological issues. I see them clearly now and she is really waking up to them in real time--we're talking a lot--and this far our conversations have been reinforced by two therapists trying to help her. This is a loud wake up call in her life and my gut tells me she gets it.

But regardless, the rules are now in place. She knows the game. Should she choose to break the rules (spending, alcohol, contact with OM), the game ends. And it might end regardless if I don't see progress in the next few months.

Dr. I just wanted to add that I felt exactly the same as you do regarding our sexual performance. I struggle with ED problems to this day, it started right after dday. The pills help with this to a certain extent. To me, I felt like I was fighting a ghost in the bedroom for a long time. This, for me, was complicated by the fact my wife is my one and only partner, so I don’t really have any reference when it comes to other partners.

The fantasy thing was something that we had too, not the same, but similar. After dday, there was no way we could continue this fantasy anymore. Another loss related to infidelity.

It did take me a long time to come to grips with the sexual aspects of the A‘s. Over time, that has lessened, but there lying and gaslighting is still something that I think about and to this day, does upset me, but time does a lot to heal those wounds, but I don’t think they ever go away completely.

I'm sorry to read that.

This experience has been a bit weird on my ego; perhaps I'm fortunate it hasn't hit me the same way. It feels stupid/arrogant to say, but objectively speaking, I'm better than the OM: smarter, better looking, better shape, great cook, and exceedingly superior moral character. Now, I have no way of truthfully knowing if my wife agrees with any of that, but I see the affair as self-destructive action on her part. This wasn't a better man sweeping her off her feet, it was a lesser man she was blowing in a dirty parking garage. It's her self-esteem that's fucked more so than mine.

Don't get me wrong, it's still horribly humiliating and I'm going to struggle with understanding it, but from an objective sense, I know I'd do just fine in a divorce and could easily see a life with a younger, smarter woman of superior moral character. I've noticed many of you framing this like I'm scared of divorce and attempting reconciliation out of weakness--but I don't feel that way. I care about my wife and I care about my children--I think there is the potential for a happy ending, but I'm prepared for the alternative.

And as for my sex life now, I've been having sex with her 1-2x a day--not because I'm trying to over-compensate, but because it's a chance to resolve my horniness in a practical way. I haven't looked at porn in nearly three weeks, which is awesome.