Newest Member: AcesEights

Reconciliation :
I have asked for a divorce

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Underserving ( member #72259) posted at 2:58 PM on Thursday, November 18th, 2021

Unless there is abuse, or the A is still active, I never feel like it’s my place to tell anyone to leave. I believe we ultimately figure out what’s best for us on our own, and in our own time. That’s why I wanted you to know you’re not alone in the back and forth of should I stay or should I go.

I personally was not going to go through the trauma and pain of infidelity just to end up with some subpar partner and marriage. That meant my husband was going to have to work his ass off to become a man worthy of R. He is now a better version of himself than he has ever been. There is more affection, communication, and intimacy (not just physical) in our marriage now than all those years pre A. (Not saying the A helped anything. It’s what he did AFTER that made the difference) Even with those changes, it’s still hard to stay sometimes. Now, this is just my opinion based on my circumstances, but I don’t see the point in staying after infidelity if your spouse is going to remain the same selfish person they’ve always been. So, yes, I fully understand his actions after discovery being the ultimate deal breaker.

The thing is, I feel like he is too late. I don't want him to save it now. I think I just want him to leave me alone permanently. I had a point where I just thought, "I don't want this person anymore". I woke up even more certain than yesterday that I want D.

You’ve slept on it, and are even more determined to take the next steps to D. Making a decision one way or the other can be such an empowering feeling, even if it’s mixed with some fear and sadness. You’ve got this!! I think you will breathe a little easier, and walk a little lighter, sooner than you think. :)

If R is your comfy place I understand, but you might consider moving to the D and Separation forum. They will be able to give you better advice based on experience during this next season.

Hugs and best wishes!

[This message edited by Underserving at 2:59 PM, Thursday, November 18th]

BW (32)Found out 3 years post end of AD-day 12-9-19In R

Infidelity brings out the cuss in me. I’m not as foul mouthed in real life. ;)

posts: 732   ·   registered: Dec. 9th, 2019
id 8699053
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 3:06 PM on Thursday, November 18th, 2021

Graceloves

At this point leaving really is your only option. He is pulling you backwards, refusing to accept the consequences of his actions. You can only be responsible for you and what you accept.

What he's done and continues to do is unacceptable. If he chooses to take that shame and spiral, there is absolutely nothing you can do and it is not your fault. But you do not have to go down with him.

There is also the guilt you're holding on to that pushes you towards R when youve already recognized the continued contact after d day was insurmountable. That's OK.

To get past what you know is insurmountable, he would have to do monumental work. Really sit in the pain with you and get through it. He isn't even doing the bare minimum of being caring. He still prioritizes his comfort above everything else and the victim mentality definitely demonstrates that. To claim at any point be a victim after what he's done to you is just beyond comprehension!!!! He is choosing to be weak and comfortable and you deserve better. What he does after you truly leave him is for him to decide. It's time to take care of you and make decisions that are best for you because that's all you can be responsible for.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 3:07 PM, Thursday, November 18th]

posts: 144   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8699055
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Marz ( member #60895) posted at 3:38 PM on Thursday, November 18th, 2021

He’s high risk IMO. Repeated infidelity happens if they don’t take precautions and fix themselves.

Stop talking and start doing.

You don’t need his permission.

[This message edited by Marz at 3:39 PM, Thursday, November 18th]

posts: 6791   ·   registered: Oct. 3rd, 2017
id 8699059
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Chaos ( member #61031) posted at 3:50 PM on Thursday, November 18th, 2021

Reading through all this my heart is breaking for you. And everything I'm reading here is him gaslighting, DARVOing, blameshifting, excuse making, throwing your pain back at you...everything straight from the Wayward Handbook. And it is heartbreaking.

I betrayed myself this past year by tolerating behavior that wasn't acceptable, and he got comfortable disrespecting me and not keeping agreements.

This. Right here. This is you knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt. This is acceptance of reality - and it is a sucky reality.

Take care of you during this process. You don't need his permission to proceed.

BS-me/WH-4.5yrLTA Married 2+ decadesChildren (1 still at home)Multiple DDays w/same AP until I told OBSBrandishing a sword, channeling my inner Inigo Montoya and saying "Hello–My name is Chaos–You f***ed my husband-Prepare to Die!"

posts: 3322   ·   registered: Oct. 13th, 2017   ·   location: East coast
id 8699062
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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 4:12 PM on Thursday, November 18th, 2021

I'm sorry all your effort in R hasn't worked out. It does sound like it's time to "cut your losses". Everything you posted makes sense, it's based in facts that have emerged and now are clear despite your feelings. He has shown you who he is and now you're seeing it.

posts: 405   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8699068
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ChamomileTea ( member #53574) posted at 10:53 PM on Thursday, November 18th, 2021

Living with a depressed person is hard anyway, but when the thing that depressed them was betraying you, then I think there's probably no greater love than the love it takes to do that.

I am so sad for him that he pissed that away.

I took care of him when he was at his lowest. I told myself he had made mistakes because he was abused as a kid but he really loved me and I loved him and we would be okay. Then he blew every chance I gave him. He turned into the "what not to do" version of this.

Did you ever get a chance to read that book by Terrence Real I recommended to you? It's called I Don't Want To Talk About It and it's about covert male depression. Of course, it doesn't matter if you're sure you're done. But if you're not, it's possible that your WW isn't hopeless. If Real is correct in his assertions, the abuse you've mentioned was likely the culprit for the covert depression. The cheating, the drinking, the dopamine band-aid are meant to avoid overt depression. But when avoidance fails and depression sets it, Real's theory is that the CURE is allowing the overt depression +and+ working through those earlier wounds. IOW, he's got to FEEL all the stuff he was avoiding.

I'm not suggesting in ANY WAY that you forego your own needs in deference to your WS. Not by a long shot. I think OIN is right. Sometimes the WS doesn't really take you seriously.. until you're really serious. By that time, it can be too late. My only point is that just because you're not seeing any progress yet, doesn't mean there won't ever be progress. We can't know from the outside looking in, of course, whether your WS fits Real's profile. He might just be a tool, right? But maybe not.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 10:55 PM, Thursday, November 18th]

posts: 4674   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016
id 8699140
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EllieKMAS ( member #68900) posted at 12:07 AM on Saturday, November 20th, 2021

And in return he sends her a message absolving her of all wrongdoing and talking about what great friends they were and how alike they were. It was disgusting.

Oh man, this reminded me of something mine did. Mine sent a long fb message to his 18 yo ap (he was 37 at the time, gross, no?) waxing poetic about how they were 'twin flames' and were 'destined for love' and then thanked her for 'everything she had done for his life' - to whit, convinced him he was poly, broken up his marriage, gotten him and herself fired for 'dry-humping each other around the shop' (from a job where he was working towards a buy-in and not taking a paycheck), and had given him a stuffed narwhal (that I enjoyed very muchly shredding into teeny tiny pieces and putting in his things when I packed him out of my house). What the WHAT??

I, his grown-ass WIFE, read that long barfy thank you note while I was sitting by his ER bed after he'd had another seizure and I got called by the paramedics that my insurance paid for after 9 years of paying all the bills and doing all the adulting, while he had no job and no ambition and contributed nothing of any real value to my life. But sure, thank you teenage ap for all your 'wuvs'. RME SMDH. The one good thing reading it did was dash cold water on all my remaining hope for R and get me out of infidelity finally.

Grace, I am so sorry you're hurting and that your wh is just not getting it. You deserve so much better than this!

"No, it's you mothafucka, here's a list of reasons why." – Iliza Schlesinger

"Being weird is just a side effect of being awesome."– Unknown

posts: 3201   ·   registered: Nov. 22nd, 2018   ·   location: CO
id 8699394
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Forks027 ( member #59996) posted at 1:39 AM on Saturday, November 20th, 2021

And in return he sends her a message absolving her of all wrongdoing and talking about what great friends they were and how alike they were.

Personally, that misdeed alone would make it a dealbreaker.

He's practically told and shown you that when it comes down to it, he'll do whatever it takes to make himself happy/comfortable in the moment. Even at your expense.

Maybe he hasn't reached that point yet where he needs to do hard work on himself to be a better person and partner. Maybe he never will.

But it doesn't mean you have to sacrifice yourself in the process waiting for change to happen.

Good luck.

posts: 276   ·   registered: Aug. 4th, 2017
id 8699407
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 GraceLoves (original poster member #78769) posted at 2:02 PM on Saturday, November 20th, 2021

I appreciate everybody here so much. I can't explain how much it's helped me to talk with you all. I have been reading the forums for so long, probably read literally every thread and some of them have honestly been better than any book or counsellor. I'd like (maybe in future) to contribute more to helping others but right now I feel I have not much wisdom to offer anybody at all!

WH did apologise and recognised everything said here. Which was some comfort. He properly acknowledged the way he behaved was terrible and saw my side. He said I deserved all these things to have been done a year ago. I have still not seen him since the argument but we talked.

It's not my fault or responsibility, I know this, but speaking to him once we'd calmed down made me see he is genuinely experiencing pretty extreme PTSD. I am not excusing him AT ALL. He has done SO MANY WRONG THINGS. But he really doesn't deserve to be in this state crying I think what makes it worse is that when people abuse you, you can say "it's not my fault", but because he endured this abuse in the act of cheating on me, and also certainly for a few weeks, leading AP on, in his mind, it's all completely his fault and he is a worthless person.

I dug into the problem with IC, and it boils down to fear. He can't trust anyone. Not even an IC right now. The problem is not, I think, that he doesn't want to take responsibility or "do the work", I think he does, but he is too damn sick right now to give it. He's too sick to make dinner right now.

I feel like IC right now is going to help me a lot. It's such a weird situation to be caught in because I can't win or do anything to fix it. Selfishly, being cheated out of him being with me / healthy / able to meet my needs feels like one more thing the A took away from me. I haven't proceeded with anything official with the D. I need time in IC to discuss and thing about what the long term outcomes might be.

Seeing him now, I think it's possible the damage to him is a lot more serious than I'd even thought. He needs consistency, unselfish love and unwavering support. He needs to hear "I am not going anywhere". How can I offer that when I myself feel so insecure? It's a situation I feel has no solution :(

BW - seperated since Nov 21
DDay 1 - Nov 20, LTA during LDR. DDay 2 - Feb 21, ONS with AP. WH will maintain we were separated
DDay 3 - June 21, discovered WH had exchanged closure emails with AP

posts: 124   ·   registered: May. 9th, 2021   ·   location: London
id 8699448
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 2:09 PM on Saturday, November 20th, 2021

You don't need to ask for a divorce. Hire an attorney,and file for divorce.

180 him. Ignore him. Do not engage.

posts: 3780   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8699449
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 2:34 PM on Saturday, November 20th, 2021

You have already tried being there for him. He took advantage of it and took it as a green light to let you continue to absorb the pain that he didn't want to.

You cannot stay in this situation for his sake and literally sacrifice yourself. You already have done that and it helped nobody. You have already been there for him and he chose to lie and hurt you more.

Stop taking on his mental health as your problem. If he is sick, he can either get the help he needs and do what they tell him he needs to do or he can stay sick. Neither is your choice or your job.

I highly recommend you move forward with divorce and let him do what he's going to do. You can hold on it being final but stop trying to save him. He's either going to save himself or not but don't let yourself go down with him.

posts: 144   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8699454
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 GraceLoves (original poster member #78769) posted at 5:40 PM on Saturday, November 20th, 2021

He's moved out, which for today is enough. I think I need a little breathing space. Whatever decision I make I don't want it to be rash.

If I start divorce proceedings, I want to mean it, rather than it be a ploy for a reaction.

I read the 180. It's not for me. One thing through all this is I wanted to stay true to who I am. If I do a 180 it will be heartfelt and permanent. Not strategic.

I've always led with my heart and if I'm done I'm done. Right now I almost can't think about the M because I'm registering the information.

Right now, I think I need tranquil today. I think I just need time to accept all this. I didn't realise until quite recently how much all this has affected me.

BW - seperated since Nov 21
DDay 1 - Nov 20, LTA during LDR. DDay 2 - Feb 21, ONS with AP. WH will maintain we were separated
DDay 3 - June 21, discovered WH had exchanged closure emails with AP

posts: 124   ·   registered: May. 9th, 2021   ·   location: London
id 8699463
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 12:00 AM on Sunday, November 21st, 2021

Same as asking for D can lead to R but when you ask for D you really need to mean it. Not be a strategy to get a o R.

Good luck on your path.

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 1479   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8699490
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clouds777 ( member #72442) posted at 11:10 PM on Sunday, November 21st, 2021

I definitely agree you should take all the time you need to assess your situation. Fortunately it sounds like your finances aren't an issue so you can take your time to decide.

But, from what you shared, it seems like his issues only need addressing when it affects him, i.e. you leaving or wanting to leave. When it's affecting you, he's fine to keep the status quo or do whatever he wants, like the letter to her.

posts: 144   ·   registered: Jan. 1st, 2020
id 8699559
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DevastatedDee ( member #59873) posted at 2:23 AM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Only he knows his own mind, but be wary of this making himself the victim thing being manipulation. If you had met my XWH, he could have you believing that he is the victim in any situation. He could have you feeling so sorry for him that it would break your heart even as he was telling you about something awful he did. He was the victim because sexual abuse as a child led to him cheating on me. He was a victim because his cheating on me cost him his marriage. He was a victim because his drug abuse cost everything else and his drug abuse was because he was a victim. If his mind works like this and you get too sucked into all the sads and such, your value will disappear altogether. You will be either the person he hurts or the person who is to blame for him not being better because you left him. You as an individual human being will not matter. You do matter. You are not less important than he is.

Seeing him now, I think it's possible the damage to him is a lot more serious than I'd even thought. He needs consistency, unselfish love and unwavering support. He needs to hear "I am not going anywhere".

What do YOU need?

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 2:25 AM, Monday, November 22nd]

DDay: 06/07/2017
MH - RA on DDay.
Divorced a serial cheater (prostitutes and lord only knows who and what else).

posts: 4632   ·   registered: Jul. 27th, 2017
id 8699573
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Bigger ( Guide #8354) posted at 11:21 AM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Frankly I don’t see this as much as abuse as I see two people that can’t communicate.
Maybe because your husband isn’t listening or understanding the message.

Just remember this:
You don’t ask for divorce and then expect the other party to bring you one gift-wrapped.

You DO divorce.

If you want a divorce, then you need to go and start the work. As per my initial statement then don’t expect him to have heard and understood the request for a divorce the same way as you do.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10012   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8699604
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PurpleReign ( member #75083) posted at 11:42 AM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

Graceloves I’ve been following your story closely because your WS’s behavior mirrors mine and many others I’m sure. My stbx WS also is having mental issues due to the fallout of his own choices. The thing is it’s ok to care about their mental state but it’s not ok to have more compassion for them than we do ourselves.

Right now he’s not safe for R. He’s shown you that for more than a year. Matter of fact he’s shown you that repeatedly right after Dday. The going back to the AP when you asked for divorce. The non breakup letter that should’ve mentioned absolute regret, that it was a horrible choice, and his intent to fix what he broke should’ve been made clear in that "it’s over" message. He didn’t make a clean break or choice. How they end it tells you where their head is at.

My WH also was abused and neglected. It’s never been dealt with either but we can’t use the trauma of our past to excuse or abuse the people in our present. It’s truly no excuse for it. Many of us have that same background and don’t make these hurtful choices. He has to overcome his shame and selfishness to do the right thing by you. You’re giving him more love and compassion than you’re showing yourself. You need to know your bottom line to R and what the consequences are if he can’t fulfill them.

It’s a good thing you can make a clean break if that’s what you finally decide. That’s a huge obstacle out of the way. As a person who’s been there don’t mistake pity for love. We can’t fix someone who’s broken. It takes years to fix that kind of brokenness. Ask yourself can you sacrifice years for him to finally decide to do the work. He has to do double time. Deal with his own self inflicted trauma AND help heal you his wife. They chose this path not us. Like my WH he could’ve chosen a million healthier ways to fix his mess. Right now he’s hurting you because he hasn’t chosen to make the effort to do the real work.

I hope you take this time to put all the focus on what you need and what you want. Maybe with IC you can really dig into why you’re sacrificing your own emotional well being for someone who chose to hurt you. Wishing you healing and some peace of mind.

[This message edited by PurpleReign at 4:38 PM, Monday, November 22nd]

"Don’t get even get everything" Ivana

posts: 90   ·   registered: Aug. 4th, 2020   ·   location: Texas
id 8699605
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 GraceLoves (original poster member #78769) posted at 2:48 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

The non breakup letter that should’ve mentioned absolute regret, that it was a horrible choice, and his intent to fix what he broke should’ve been made clear in that "it’s over" message.

Thanks for writing this. Having contact with AP at all was so incredibly bad, but to not include in that letter how much he regretted any of this was unbelievable really. For me, this is the worst part of all of this.

I hope you take this time to put all the focus on what you need and what you want.

This is where I am at.

What I feel right now is exhaustion. I have started IC and I think I am just going to start from the beginning with all this and try and figure out how I feel and what I think.

BW - seperated since Nov 21
DDay 1 - Nov 20, LTA during LDR. DDay 2 - Feb 21, ONS with AP. WH will maintain we were separated
DDay 3 - June 21, discovered WH had exchanged closure emails with AP

posts: 124   ·   registered: May. 9th, 2021   ·   location: London
id 8699624
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HardKnocks ( member #70957) posted at 3:27 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

What I feel right now is exhaustion. I have started IC and I think I am just going to start from the beginning with all this and try and figure out how I feel and what I think.

Perfect!

BW 30-year marriage.
DDay2 2/20 5 month EA/PA
Recovering

posts: 333   ·   registered: Jul. 7th, 2019
id 8699628
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Underserving ( member #72259) posted at 4:08 PM on Monday, November 22nd, 2021

I think you’re doing great working through all this with your IC. It’s ok if you’re not ready to pull the plug. It’s ok to need some more time to figure out what you want (as long as you are safe) As I said, I have had a lot of back and forth myself, and I think that’s pretty normal. No matter what, know we are all on team Grace! You are understood, supported, and not alone ❤️

BW (32)Found out 3 years post end of AD-day 12-9-19In R

Infidelity brings out the cuss in me. I’m not as foul mouthed in real life. ;)

posts: 732   ·   registered: Dec. 9th, 2019
id 8699636
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