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Complicated relationship

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PSTI ( member #53103) posted at 6:15 PM on Thursday, November 4th, 2021

He didn't pursue his AP for a relationship, didn't hide anything from you and asked you to have sex with her. We can say that this is not a good thing, but we cannot say that it is cheating. Do not be misled by manipulations in this direction.

Coerced consent is not true consent.

Me: BW, my xH left me & DS after a 14 year marriage for the AP in 2014.

Happily remarried and in an open/polyamorous relationship. DH (married 3 years) & DBF (dating 2 years). Cohabitating happily all together!! <3

posts: 745   ·   registered: May. 6th, 2016
id 8696778
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 keljpvs (original poster member #79553) posted at 6:21 PM on Thursday, November 4th, 2021

@Walksthestorm Yes, she is supposed to be moving soon. Our mutual friend has told me she is dragging her feet. Didn't say why but I assume because of my husband. They are both abandoning their children in this situation. She goes home to see them on the weekends but that's it.

This whole situation is incredibly painful. I'm hoping MC will help with all of this and address why he feels he needs attention from other women and why he thinks he's in love with her so fast. I don't want to be a doormat and if this were to continue with other women I don't know what I would do. I couldn't keep living like this.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:12 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:07 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

posts: 58   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: Fredericksburg,VA
id 8696780
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Catwoman ( member #1330) posted at 7:11 PM on Thursday, November 4th, 2021

He knows you will do anything to save your marriage and he is using this knowledge to his advantage.

^^^^^^This.

He's abusing your desire to stay married to him.

This ends when YOU say it does. If you're unwilling to share him (and you should be), then he has to decide.

What woman lives several states away from her FOUR CHILDREN? She's likely bored and looking for some fun and excitement AT YOUR EXPENSE.

This ends when YOU say it does.

Repeat that until it sinks in.

This site is for getting OUT of infidelity. Yes, getting OUT of infidelity may mean ending your marriage. However, what kind of example do you set for your children in accepting this sort of mistreatment and abuse. Do you want either of your children living this kind of life? Trust me, they WILL find out. It may be down the road, but they will find out.

I'd go through the shock and awe of having him served at her house.

Think about it.

Cat

FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 27 and 24. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

posts: 32986   ·   registered: Apr. 5th, 2003   ·   location: Massachusetts
id 8696790
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Buck ( member #72012) posted at 9:06 PM on Thursday, November 4th, 2021

Kels,
From my experience, in a very similar situation, you're being given bad advice here. You seem to have glossed over what you did. Your description of your affair(s) reek of trickle truth to me. For instance, you say "handful" of men in a 3mo period instead of just saying how many men. Is a handful 5? Or 7? Maybe it's 9, why not just say? And that gets to the crux of why your H doesn't want IC.

You can't openly admit to the number of men you fucked in a 3 month period on an anonymous internet forum yet you expect your husband to trot into a stranger's office and have a detailed conversation about being cucked by his wife because she sought validation by letting herself be sexually used by a "handful" of men for 3 months along with a proposal of some sort from a winner she was banging that knew her for less than 3 months. You sound classy kels. I'm guessing the phone hack clued him in on unprotected sex and other disgusting details he probably would not like to disclose to another person. He's stuck with you because of kids and finances. He's also trying to sort out who the fuck you really are, not only because of the sick shit that validates you, but the lies and the way you handled the aftermath. ​Now he has to explain to someone why you're worth going through all of this bullshit that is R and why he wants to be with a woman that would do that to her children and husband. And the truth is he probably isn't entirely sure why he would even entertain staying with you. I've been there and it's embarrassing, difficult, and fills a man with shame. And this isn't even touching on the paternity aspect or all of the insecurities that get amplified by your spouse betraying you. No man wants to be married to a woman that needs to fuck a handful of men to realize she wants to be in her marriage or to recognize his worth. And I don't give a fuck how remorseful she is. It took me 11 years to go to IC, get EMDR, journal, meditate, and by then I had been in some sort of relationship for six and a half years with two different women. I completely understand why he doesn't want IC and you should too sisoon.

The truth is you traded your importance to your husband for "validation" from a handful of men. You hold very little sway over him now and you know it. He is not going to give a fuck about any ultimatums you dish out. You have put yourself in a position where your choices are stand by and hope your H gets his pound of flesh and comes back to the marriage or he leaves you for another woman - now or in the future. I chose to divorce after 20 years. The main takeaway in these situations is you're free to choose any fucking behavior you want, hell you can have all the unprotected validation you want from how ever many handfuls of men the hitch is you don't get to choose your mate's reaction or behavior in the aftermath. Same goes for your H. You have to decided what you can and can't live with.

posts: 338   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2019   ·   location: Texas
id 8696808
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waitedwaytoolong ( member #51519) posted at 9:20 PM on Thursday, November 4th, 2021

You are truly in an awful spot. the current situation is one that is not tenable for very long Neither you or her, or the the children can can continue this very long.

Unfortunately , and their have been countless posts about this, but many WS after a period of years thinks that
"everything is great"and their BS have totally forgiven them. Not to gloss over what a BW goes through, but this seems to occur more with the betrayed guy. Either the guy after a period of years decides its his time to have the same experience his WW had, or more often, the pain and trauma comes roaring back and agate even decades the BS reopens the discussion of the affair to the amazement of the WS who thought everything was hunky dory.

This is probably a casual affair, and will run its course, but I encourage you not to rug sweep his affair, and you should probably reopen the discussion about yours. Im not going to be a hard ass about it, but i agree with the thought your description of a handful of men over 3 months glosses over how devastating it must have been to him.

You both have a lot of ground to cover here, but I think the marriage probably can be saved with a lot of work.

I am the cliched husband whose wife had an affair with the electrician

Divorced

posts: 1879   ·   registered: Jan. 26th, 2016
id 8696813
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Walkthestorm ( member #72157) posted at 10:08 PM on Thursday, November 4th, 2021

@Buck, forgive me but something about your posts rubs me the wrong way. I can't put my finger on it fully but the underlaying current of anger, regret, pain and deep resentment stick out. In your world is there anything a WW can do to atone for her bad choices? What would it take to make a woman worthy of a second chance in your book? Or are all WW doomed?

How about yourself? Not only did you do what OP's husband is doing, you also had an affair that your wife does not know about which makes you a cheater too and not only that it makes you worst (in my opinion) because you knew better! Do you believe you are worthy of being given a second chance?

You carry so much resentment for your wife and in many of your posts you always circle back to her actions but rarely to your own. You are not a victim. You had 20 years to leave your marriage.

OP, your husband had options after your affair came out. He had a choice to make and he chose to stay married for whatever reason. He needs to take responsibility for that choice. You can not be expected to live for the rest of your life on edge waiting for the other shoe to drop. If your past infidelity is a deal breaker he needs to own up to that instead of engaging in a destructive behaviour that is affecting your whole family.

posts: 89   ·   registered: Nov. 26th, 2019
id 8696818
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Buck ( member #72012) posted at 12:04 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

@Buck, forgive me but something about your posts rubs me the wrong way. I can't put my finger on it fully but the underlaying current of anger, regret, pain and deep resentment stick out. In your world is there anything a WW can do to atone for her bad choices? What would it take to make a woman worthy of a second chance in your book? Or are all WW doomed?

How about yourself? Not only did you do what OP's husband is doing, you also had an affair that your wife does not know about which makes you a cheater too and not only that it makes you worst (in my opinion) because you knew better! Do you believe you are worthy of being given a second chance?

You carry so much resentment for your wife and in many of your posts you always circle back to her actions but rarely to your own. You are not a victim. You had 20 years to leave your marriage.

OP, your husband had options after your affair came out. He had a choice to make and he chose to stay married for whatever reason. He needs to take responsibility for that choice. You can not be expected to live for the rest of your life on edge waiting for the other shoe to drop. If your past infidelity is a deal breaker he needs to own up to that instead of engaging in a destructive behaviour that is affecting your whole family.

WTS, for the love of God, my wife knows about both affairs, or whatever you want to call them. She knows about the inappropriate things I did between those affairs too. I've answered every question truthfully, written timelines, and we've discussed what I did in great detail. It's true she knows more about the first affair because I threw the whole thing in her face much like the OP's husband is doing now. I made damn sure she knew what was going on and not in a kind way. I told her before I ever started seeing any other women that I was not going to be faithful to her going forward. I did not tell her about the second woman until after it had ended. I also said that I would leave when the kids were older. My wife agreed to these terms. I did not coerce her or force her to make any fucking choice. She's an adult.

And what about me? I tried at first to R but my wife was foggy and blameshifty and everything was my fault. I think they all are. She backtracked when divorce was mentioned but we got some shitty MC early on and the whole unmet needs and childhood trauma bullshit became the why and how. Oh, I worked too much and didn't pay her enough attention either. I was completely checked out of the marriage for 10 years and 6.5 of those years were spent with other women. I was not going to honor or be faithful to a whore. During those years my wife sincerely figured her shit out for the most part. I was cordial to her, not kind, cordial. Outside of our home life and children, I went about my life as if she wasn't my wife. Honestly, I never really thought of her as my wife again. I was one of those folks that saw my cheating spouse in a whole new light. I didn't have the feeling that she acted out of character or was broken somehow. I saw her for what she had always been. This was her character. A lot of issues in our relationship now made sense to me. And to keep this somewhat short, I did time in IC. I've done EMDR. I've read so many infidelity books in the last 7 years I've lost count. I still journal (sometimes) and meditate (daily) now too. I'm saying this with the benefit of hindsight, I would not have stayed one single day post d day knowing what I know now. I regret being married while pursuing other women. I know now that I am not R material. There is no coming back from this for me. I know that now. And it took me way too long to figure that out. There were gains and losses in R. I did try for years. The "new" M just didn't work for me, the losses were just too much for me to live with. They were the things I enjoyed most about marriage. I moved out and filed for divorce 3 months ago and my wife is still frantically trying to save things. It's crazy.

posts: 338   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2019   ·   location: Texas
id 8696835
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longsadstory1952 ( member #29048) posted at 12:25 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

Can we please not call out each other! This woman needs help.

posts: 1096   ·   registered: Jul. 14th, 2010
id 8696840
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ChamomileTea ( Guide #53574) posted at 1:17 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

I was completely checked out of the marriage for 10 years and 6.5 of those years were spent with other women. I was not going to honor or be faithful to a whore. During those years my wife sincerely figured her shit out for the most part. I was cordial to her, not kind, cordial. Outside of our home life and children, I went about my life as if she wasn't my wife. Honestly, I never really thought of her as my wife again.

I hope you're paying attention to that bit above, kels. THAT is the kind of attitude which can have a BS behaving the way yours is behaving now... entitled to hurt you and to waste your God-given life. Imagine putting another 15 or 20 years in, thinking that you're forgiven because of cordiality or whatever. But all that time, there's seething resentment lurking beneath the surface and your spouse thinking of you as a "whore" that he's never going to honor or be faithful to again, and he hasn't, and he doesn't. I mean seriously, think about those years ahead, where you are investing and your spouse is just stringing you along because divorce is inconvenient and he's going to do whatever he wants to do anyway so why bother?

You're five years out from cheating, but still being actively PUNISHED. That's the FIRST thing I realized as a BS when I decided to try for R, that Punishment and Reconciliation are polar opposites, that this isn't a situation in which one can extract justice and still KEEP the emotional intimacy which ought to be the goal of R.

Right now, you're so afraid of losing this marriage that you're unwilling to protect yourself. But I tell you now that your fear is misdirected. I think you'd be wise to consider that paragraph above and what a horrible fate it must be to continue investing your good years with a person who might always think of you as somehow beneath him. THAT is a thing to fear... wasted decades. Life you can never have back. To live in the one-down forever is a much more lonely fate than divorce. In divorce, there are endless possibilities. You are free to recreate your life, maybe even to meet someone who will allow you to grow and to enjoy equality in the relationship again. You're looking at this situation in fear of losing the path you're on, but there's a path untaken that you are giving up by staying, so if what you're staying for isn't wonderful, how can it be worth giving up the endless possibilities on that other path?

Do you believe that every person who has ever cheated is beyond redemption??? Can you look at our recovered WS's here at SI and tell them that they are worthless people who don't deserve REAL love and happiness? If you can't condemn someone else that way, how can you do it to yourself? Who is going to value you if you won't?? I think it's clear that you've still got some work to do tackling shame. There are some great posters in Wayward who can help you with that. Also, anything by Brene Brown but I particular liked Rising Strong. This is work that can take time, but it's sooooo worth doing. As a BS, what I found to be KEY in healing was relearning how to love and trust myself. I can't imagine that it's so much different a lesson for the truly repentant WS. Invest in YOU. You may or may not lose your marriage. But you will always have yourself. And YOU ARE ENOUGH. Believe it.

ETA: Look for TED talks online by Brene Brown too. And try also The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson. I think that might be a good resource to get you reinvesting in yourself.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 1:29 AM, Friday, November 5th]

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)Married 38 years; in R with fWH for 7

{edited for typos.. again}

posts: 4886   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8696845
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Cooley2here ( member #62939) posted at 2:04 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

Your marriage is toxic to both of you. It most definitely is to children. KBecause you both have nothing more to lose I suggest you put your kids to bed and sit in two kitchen chairs face-to-face with nothing between you. Before you do this each of you should write down any thoughts you have or any questions you have. This is where the rubber meets the road. If he’s not willing to give up the choices he’s made then you really need to accept that and plan a life without him. Make sure he understands that your children still need him to be in their lives 100%. I wish both of you luck because it sounds like the two of you have caused each other a great deal of pain.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 2:04 AM, Friday, November 5th]

When someone walks away let them go
TD Jakes

posts: 3109   ·   registered: Mar. 5th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8696852
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OwningItNow ( member #52288) posted at 2:19 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

Abuse is often accompanied by hugs, apologies, promises, and professions of love. If your WS was beating you several nights a week, maybe then you'd see that all that stuff is meaningless.

me: BS/WSh: WS/BS

Reject the rejector. Do not reject yourself.

posts: 5349   ·   registered: Mar. 16th, 2016   ·   location: Midwest
id 8696855
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 keljpvs (original poster member #79553) posted at 3:34 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

Wow a lot going on here tonight. First @Buck…I do not take what I did to him lightly. I was quickly trying to paint a picture. I know I hurt him to depths I cannot imagine but I have to believe that everyone deserves redemption if they truly feel badly for what they’ve done. I certainly have felt horrible for years. I know that does nothing for him but I have done my best since to be a better wife and friend to him.

He is my best friend. We’ve been together since we were 19 and now we are in our mid-forties. He is my whole life. Our lives are completely intertwined and I thought no matter what happened we would make it through. I still want to believe that.

He’s not perfect and is he fucking up right now? Yes! Is he with some whore that is a piece of shit that doesn’t take care of her own kids? Yes again! But I still try to find compassion for everyone involved.

We all mess up cause we are human. Our vows were for better or worse. This is another worse. He’s not his best self and he is putting this younger chic on a pedestal where she doesn’t belong. They have nothing in common other than sexual attraction yet he thinks he’s in love. He’s not! This bitch has her claws in him so tight he doesn’t know which way is up. Isn’t is possible for him to realize he’s probably making a mistake and fully come back to me.

Circumstances change every moment and my emotions along with it. I’m trying to cope and deal with my anxieties and fears and have compassion at the same time. I can’t be quick to condemn him when he has been with me for so long. I have to believe there is something to save here cause there is! History that cannot be compared. Years of love, hate, sex, children, laughing in the kitchen, playing games with the kids. It’s all filled with that. More happiness than not. Doesn’t that count for something?

I really appreciate those that have shown compassion for me at a time when I desperately need it. I need to hear I’m not a piece of shit and deserve happiness. All of us do!

I don’t know. In a weird place tonight. Lack of food and total exhaustion will do that. I hope to hear from you lovely people tomorrow and I hope that you will continue to support me as the future seems so uncertain.

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[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:08 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

posts: 58   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: Fredericksburg,VA
id 8696868
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66charger ( member #69471) posted at 4:15 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

We know you love him, but you need to face the fact that this may be an exit "affair".

He said he would leave when the kids were older. Your time may have ran out.

Look, your husband is not in love with the OW, but he is not in love with you either. That was a hard time you laid on your husband. You were a seriel cheater and made plans to leave him for another married man...and he read all about it. That was a big ask for him to recover.

He did not and here you are.
Quite honestly, the best thing for the both of you may be to wish each other well.

Give the ultimatum a shot, but if it doesn't work then see an attorney. Your husband almost certainly has seen one.

[This message edited by 66charger at 4:22 AM, Friday, November 5th]

posts: 299   ·   registered: Jan. 17th, 2019
id 8696872
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Sofarsogood ( member #71991) posted at 4:39 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

Your situation is going to boil down to what you're willing to tolerate. You stepped out of the marriage, but you made the decision to recommit to your husband and your marriage. Maybe you should expect the same from your husband. If he isn't capable of making the decision to value you and the marriage at this point, you may want to step back and do a soft 180. Since he is in the affair fog, look after yourself and your children. Right now he is acting like he can do whatever he wants and you'll still be around. At the very least, start doing things you enjoy and make yourself the priority. Best of luck to you!

posts: 298   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2019   ·   location: Michigan
id 8696876
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Walkthestorm ( member #72157) posted at 7:31 AM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

OP be prepared if you choose to stick this one out you may be in this place of uncertanty for some time. Months if not years. For your own mental and physical health and for your kids you need to try to pull yourself up and regain strenghth. Drink water, eat and do something active every day.

History, happy moments etc get tainted for the BS for obvious reasons. BS looks at those happy moments you described and think 'if it was so good, why did you choose to throw it all away?'. All I am saying is that joint history might not count as highly in your husbands book as it does in yours.If you want a glimpse of your husbands true state of mind I think Buck's latest post and Chamomile Tea's analysis of it comes close.

Yes, your husband is worthy of grace and redemtion but not while he is activly choosing to have his fantasy fun at your expence. He is not entitled to have your forgivness. He will need to earn it.

Yes the OW sounds like a real jem.

When you feel strong enough, now or later, come back to this thread and re-read Chamomile Tea's wise post.

@Buck, thank you for clarifying even if you did not answer the questions. I wish you and your STBEXW well on your separate journeys.

[This message edited by Walkthestorm at 7:32 AM, Friday, November 5th]

posts: 89   ·   registered: Nov. 26th, 2019
id 8696893
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MangledHeart ( Webmaster) posted at 1:40 PM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

Buck, you have a PM.

Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrow; it empties today of its strength. ~Corrie Ten Boom

posts: 10000   ·   registered: May. 31st, 2002   ·   location: The beach
id 8696917
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 3:34 PM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

You hold very little sway over him now and you know it.

That's true for all of us.

The context of that statement views M as some sort of power struggle in a zero-sum game. If that's what M is, I want no part of it. M can be a way of life which brings out the best in both partners. It can be a relationship in which cooperation increases the 'sum'. R is the process of building that sort of relationship.

*****

kel,

Your H is not your whole life. In telling yourself he is and in trying to make him your whole life, you're doing yourself and him and your kids a great disservice. I hope you start seeing yourself as an individual separate form your H.

I suggest reading about 'co-dependence'.

*****

** posting as a member **

Buck, I do not mean to attack you, but I will share my reading of your last post.

You describe your thoughts in a way that makes me think you're extremely angry in your M to a 'whore'. I don't think I'd stay in that sort of M, but you do. So why not D?

Are you in the 'R at all costs' camp?

If it's financial, does staying in your M for financial benefits make you a whore? Or have you never made that connection?

(I don't see 'whore' as necessarily negative. We all sell something of ourselves to survive, IMO. But that's me.)

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 26513   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8697005
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 3:44 PM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

Keljpvs

Look – there isn’t really any way to quantify what you did and give it a value and then quantify what your husband is doing and give it a value and then try to see which is more, worse or anything along those lines. Marriage isn’t a competition with scores and new lives and all that. It’s a contract – a union. As I have stated: your actions do not mean he can abuse you.
Are his actions a consequence of what you did? Maybe. But even then it’s not the correct response. Not the response that benefits the marriage or even him.

OK – can we start with one basic?
Go get something good to eat. Doesn’t have to be healthy but make sure it’s filling and nutritious. Chase it down with a sugared soda or a shake. We are thinking energy here. Refuelling the tanks. Then go for a walk or a jog. Get some air. Don’t worry about your problems – they will still be there when you get back, only now you might be able to face them.

I think a very common problem is a lack of communications.
I think you are perfectly entitled to say something along these lines:
"What is going on is not in accordance to how I envisioned marriage. I know I had the affair and I regret that. However that does not tie us into something that will only make one or both miserable. We need to decide what we want – both individually and as a couple. It might not be the same thing and if we cant have the same expectations to our marriage then it can be better for both of us to acknowledge that and work out from that basis. What is clear however is that I don’t want THIS anymore."

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 10172   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8697018
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 keljpvs (original poster member #79553) posted at 5:41 PM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

@Sisoon I do agree that I believe I'm in a co-dependent situation here. I think it almost occurs naturally when you've been together as long as we have. We grew into adulthood together.

I do know the easy thing would be to walk away. I'm just not sure this fling is forever. Even if he ends up leaving me for her. His love grew way too fast and too strong. 3 weeks! I can't imagine with her past history that this relationship is going to sustain itself.

Maybe I'm delusional, I don't know.

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[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:09 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

posts: 58   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: Fredericksburg,VA
id 8697058
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 keljpvs (original poster member #79553) posted at 5:46 PM on Friday, November 5th, 2021

@Bigger we did kind of have that talk last night. That we both need to figure out what we want. Especially him. I think I've been anxious for an immediate answer to the uncertain future becomes certain but I'm approaching it the wrong way. I need to calm down and rationalize. What if I could live with an open relationship? The kids keep their normalcy, he doesn't have to choose between us and our relationship can still be happy.

I've been working out at least every other day. I've lost 25 pounds since this whole thing started. It's hard for me to eat. Due to my anxiety my tummy isn't happy with me most days so for now, I stick to minimal. Some days I'm able to tolerate a bit more and some days less.

I read the text messages today between them and it broke my heart. Made me sad to see the love web he is in with her when it's not even reality. Reality is her 4 screaming kids and responsibility. She's acting like she has none right now and doesn't think about the consequences of her actions. They are both doing what feels good now and are addicted to it.

You are right, there is no keeping score. We are both hurt. Period.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 4:11 PM, Monday, December 6th]

[This message edited by keljpvs at 7:09 PM, Friday, December 3rd]

posts: 58   ·   registered: Nov. 2nd, 2021   ·   location: Fredericksburg,VA
id 8697060
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