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former BW here, no stop sign.

The OM is married and no I haven't told his wife. From my perspective that's not my decision to make.

Boinking her husband was a decision you made, and telling his wife is also your responsibility at this point. Being remorseful is more than showing dedication to your partner, seeking IC to figure out the why's and the how's, and being willing to make your marriage work. It's about doing the right thing to those you've hurt. You indirectly hurt his wife by crossing a forbidden line with her husband. You were not committed to her, AP was, but it doesn't negate the fact that you caused damage. Ignoring the damage doesn't make it go away.

I want nothing more to do with my AP and certainly nothing to do with his wife.

Herein lies the issue....you don't want to face her! Well, unfortunately your decisions caused you to be in this position. She didn't ask for you to invade her world, but you did. By your other posts you seem very sincere in wanting to do the right thing. Well, the "right thing" includes being completely honest with AP's wife. She may want nothing to do with you, but that's HER decision to make, not yours.

Believing that you owe her nothing tells me that you are sorry you hurt your husband, but everyone else must fend for themselves. Poor attitude for someone who wants to make things right.

[This message edited by newlife03 at 7:12 PM, April 8th (Thursday)]

@guvenziz

This puts her in a position of stranger regarding the marriage of AP and OBS.

She is no stranger to the marriage. She willingly became a 3rd party in it.

Waywardness is,among many other things, cowardly.

So it's not surprising that you won't do this.

Maybe, if you find a good IC, who helps you dig deep into your issues, you will come to understand why everyone here..minus one..is telling you this is a necessary step in your healing,and in showing your husband you take full responsibility, and are working on becoming a safe partner.

Telling the OBS is one of the "easiest" things a WS in your position needs to do. If you can't do that small thing, maybe you are not ready for reconciliation..

We tell all new BS..watch their actions. Their words mean nothing. What are they doing to become safe? Right now, you are hoping your words are enough. How's that working so far?

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:41 PM, April 8th (Thursday)]

guvensiz

This puts her in a position of stranger regarding the marriage of AP and OBS. Actually, being a judge of a crime you are a partner of and denouncing an accomplice is more evil. The person entitled to this is the victim (BS).

I don't agree with this at all.

Let's put this slightly differently. Let's suppose that she (OP) beat up the OBS because the AP asked her to. She donned a mask so the OBS has no idea who it was. OP has now sworn never to assault anyone again. Would you consider her a stranger to the marriage of AP and OBS and that she should not aware the OBS of what she did and what the AP asked her to do?

To hazard a guess I would say no, you would think that would be different. The thing is, in both cases OBS has been abused. In both cases AP and OP have abused her and contributed to her having a deceitful marriage. This isn't about being the judge of a crime, it's about accepting responsibility for committing a crime.

If you steal something and the person you stole from doesn't know it, does that mean you didn't steal it? Does simply placing the stolen item back in the person's house regain your integrity and make you a trustworthy person?

No. Taking ownership of the wrong actions you do does that. Telling the person you stole from that you stole from them is taking ownership of your actions.

She is no stranger to the marriage. She willingly became a 3rd party in it.

I also gave the reasons for what I said.

So, is there any difference between telling OBS about the A by WS or any other stranger? BH will not benefit from this. Who will? OBS we assume. If any stranger does this, does the result change that? No. So why would it be wrong to say that WS is in a position of a stranger about exposing an A to OBS?

I don't say "don't tell", if you want you can tell, but as a minus one I just say you don't have to tell OBS if your BH doesn't see it necessary. But don't wait him to tell you, ask him (same about the polygraph).

We're not talking about the necessities of being a good person here, but what you have to do for R with your BH. Otherwise, I can make suggestions such as kill the AP and yourself, donate to charities, feed the animals etc...But these have nothing to do with your R with your BH.

Actually, I usually make the same suggestions to the BSs with other posters here, but WS section requires another perspective. As I said above, I couldn't tolerate infidelity and would D in this case, as you tell, your husband thinks so too.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 9:05 PM, April 8th (Thursday)]

We're not talking about the necessities of being a good person here, but what you have to do for R with your BH.

The wayward forum is about more than trying to get your BS to want to reconcile with you. It's about working on themselves. Being Wayward is more than not cheating. It's about being selfish, entitled, dishonest, low self esteem, a need for external validation,etc,etc.

The wayward forum is for waywards who no longer want to be wayward. It's here to help those WS become FWS.

So..yes, in fact, we are talking about her becoming a good person.

If her BH remains steadfast in his decision not to R, does that mean she is going to be a good partner in her next relationship? If she's done none of the work on herself, then she is still the same person who thinks cheating is an option.

She is 4 months out from dday. Remember 4 months past dday as a BS? You still didn't really understand just how deeply the affair has affected you, and how it would affect every aspect of your life. Same goes for the WS. She has no idea. She hasn't begun to understand how deeply this will be a part of who she is, until she does the work, and can put it in the past.

We have waywards who have been here for a few years. People who we all respect deeply..because they really put in the time to figure themselves out. What OP doesn't understand yet,is that this isn't something you figure out in a few months and simply move on from.

While some of us may seem.harsh, we are not being harsh at all. We are trying to help her.

Telling her she is a stranger in their marriage, does her, and the OBS such a huge disservice. She helped a man abuse his wife. That's a fact.

Im hoping some of our FWS weigh in here. She needs to hear from HO, BSR,and FL, Evolving Soul,etc She needs to know what work needs to be done. She hasn't a clue.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:30 PM, April 8th (Thursday)]

TheLostOne2020

What is sworn and broken here is to be faithful to the husband. Everyone is responsible to the person they swear by, so, WW to BH, AP to OBS. Your example does not match this situation.

Everyone has said that it should be told to OBS, but there is no satisfactory clarification for this in the cause and effect relationship; it is just a "good thing".

For example, I am telling the situation that she has to tell; "If BH wants her to tell"...Why? Because she wants to R and she has to take into account her husband's expectations.

Well, if BH doesn't care whether she tells or not? Why has she tell to OBS? Because she wants to R and what?

Oops. Slow internet

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:04 PM, April 8th (Thursday)]

Because the OBS deserves the truth. No matter who tells her.

Because the OBS deserves the truth.

So, this is not about the R and the marriage between WS and BS.

No matter who tells her.

And no matter it's WS or stranger.

Thank you. And please don't be angry with me when I tell BSs opposites of these. These are different perspectives.

guvensiz - I think I can understand a bit of where you are coming from in that if my WH had told OBS against my specific wishes, I would not have been very happy. HOWEVER, whether to tell the OBS was never a question - it was really only timing bc I was on a high profile project and had objectively valid concerns that AP could go bunny boiler and put my WH's As in the newspaper to further harm ME - the BS (it would only have been newsworthy bc of my work on a particular project with a relatively short shelf life). Once the dust settled from that project and I felt reasonably confident that not a newspaper on the planet would give a damn, OBS was informed.

But here's the thing - look at OP's responses to the question:

response #1: The OM is married and no I haven't told his wife. From my perspective that's not my decision to make.

response #2 (less than 2 hrs after #1): Although I haven't spoken about this with my H, I know him well enough to know that it's not something he would want to do.

response #3 (after SIers/BS weighed in): He doesn't want to discuss the OM, his situation or anything. My BH does not want to tell the OBS.

The point is that telling the OBS was originally "not her decision to make", and who knows about her BH, whom I suspect is in deep trauma mode and doing his best to get through the days trying not to think about it.

If I'm reading the posts right, OP and her BH are S. I still believe that OP informing her BH she intends to tell OBS, and then following through, show real commitment to change. To honesty. To integrity. To atonenment. I get that this is a tough call if the BS doesn't want to tell. But I still believe that absent some basis (other than BH trying his best to avoid all of it - which we all know will not get very far for HIS healing, a prerequisite for R), telling OBS is the right call. Even if it's OP saying I will give you some time, but it's something that has to be done and I want to do it with your blessing and following your needs is better than "it's not my place" (which is hogwash) and my BS doesn't want me to.

And all the crap about who made a commitment to whom is just that - crap. I didn't make a commitment to not take a dump in my neighbor's back yard, but if I did that, I like to think I'd clean up my mess and apologize.

And FWIW, while we've gotten off track on the telling the OBS issue, there still remains an OP who is hurting, and trying to figure out if there is a way to R, along with all the other consequences that rain down after dday.

Unfortunately, I don't think I have much to offer, other than to do what you can to educate yourself (and coming to SI, even with what can often feel like very harsh treatment, is an excellent step IMO).

You can read "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" by Linda MacDonald (I'm told you can get a free pdf online). It's a pretty quick read (maybe 100 pages) and chock full of solid steps (full disclosure: IIRC, it assumes that the WS and BS are communicating). You can read "not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass - an oldie but I'd call that my encyclopedia of infidelity. You can learn about trauma, esp relational betrayal trauma, to help understand some of what your BH is going through.

You are already in IC and it sounds like you are taking the early steps in the whys. Some here on SI believe the "hows" are important, and I agree. IOW, it's not "only" why choosing a 3rd party to your M seemed like a viable choice, but "how" you were able to do it, how deceit felt comfortable to you, etc. There are other WS that would be able to describe that aspect better than I am, and I hope they come along in due time.

I assume you've already read some in the healing library on SI. There's a tagged post at the top of the wayward forum called something like "what ever WS should know" that I would read - more than once. I believe that DaddyDom recently bumped a couple of his threads (admitting it vs getting it, etc) that I think have a LOT of really good stuff in them.

I read a book called Resilience by Rick Hansen that was a real game changer for me. Has nothing to do with infidelity, but about seeing, accepting, and incorporating joy into our day-to-day lives. Many -WS & BS - get a LOT from meditation and mindfulness exercises. I use a free app called insight timer that I listened to several times a day for a while. It just helped get me centered and more able to cope with the stress and anxiety, etc.

I got a lot out of Brene Brown and learning about shame - which was a rec I read on SI from a WS. I think we all "get" why a WS feels shame, but I don't think WS ever really understand the ways in which a BS can experience overwhelming shame, but we do. Shame for feeling not good enough. Shame for not deserving a faithful spouse. Shame for leaving. Shame for staying. That can be a very long list. And Brene Brown knows her stuff. She has an excellent audio called The Power of Vulnerability that I just loved. It's about 6 hours, comprised of a series of lectures. I got it on Hoopla via my local library. I read all her books and found that audio to be a pretty good synthesis of the first few (and she's just an easy to listen to speaker. I still use her "be the container" mantra on a damn near daily basis).

That's about all I got off the top of my head.

Godspeed to you, DevastatedI.

ETA: And Guvensiz, I absolutely agree with Hellfire that it does not matter if it's WS or a stranger. One of my WH's AP's informed me, so she was both the WS AND a stranger to me. Is it the 'perfect' way to find out? No. But better to find out in a less than perfect manner than to never find out at all. Esp when one considers that the OBS could still find out at some point in the future and go ballistic. It's a ticking bomb no matter how you slice it. Better to diffuse it as best you can - and earlier vs later.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 11:36 PM, April 8th, 2021 (Thursday)]

By not informing the OBS, you rob them from knowing their true reality. You allow them to believe a lie. It's a matter of integrity.

Although I haven't spoken about this with my H, I know him well enough to know that it's not something he would want to do.

How would that help my H?

I want to be proactive, I want to do whatever I can to make things work if possible and to give my H whatever he needs. I don't know what I should do that is best for him

It appears to me that there is a total lack of communication throughout your marriage.

This will not magically rectify itself.

Men and women process situations differently and I would suggest that you slowly start to get to know your husband again.

By doing this hopefully he will get to know you again, at least who you truly are. He may have thought he knew you but your actions have shown him that you are not who he thought you were.

I would recommend that you write out the timeline of your affair and do not leave anything out, try to minimize your actions or blame him in any way.

He may not want it now but should the two of you recover from this he might want it sometime in the future.

If the two of you divorce keep the timeline as a resource on how not to take the same actions in a new relationship.

I'm done trying to get you to see that it's the right thing to do,and one of the "easiest" thing you can do to begin to become a safe partner. You are clearly not ready. We have some amazing FWS here, hopefully they can help you..but you will have to take in what they say, without being defensive..and consider that your way of thinking is wrong, and be willing to accept that.

guvensiz

I also gave the reasons for what I said.

So, is there any difference between telling OBS about the A by WS or any other stranger? BH will not benefit from this. Who will? OBS we assume. If any stranger does this, does the result change that? No. So why would it be wrong to say that WS is in a position of a stranger about exposing an A to OBS?

The WW benefits from this because it's part of developing integrity and character for the WW. The WW becomes a better, more trustworthy partner, by doing this.

Presumably the WW wants to change and not just snow their BH into believing they've changed.

HellFire hits it on the head:

The wayward forum is about more than trying to get your BS to want to reconcile with you. It's about working on themselves. Being Wayward is more than not cheating. It's about being selfish, entitled, dishonest, low self esteem, a need for external validation,etc,etc.

The wayward forum is for waywards who no longer want to be wayward. It's here to help those WS become FWS.

So..yes, in fact, we are talking about her becoming a good person.

guvensiz

What is sworn and broken here is to be faithful to the husband. Everyone is responsible to the person they swear by, so, WW to BH, AP to OBS. Your example does not match this situation.

Er, no, they are also responsible for their own actions. I think my example does match the situation. The WW presumably wants to become trustworthy, right? The goal is not to just fool the BH into thinking they are trustworthy, it's to actually BE trustworthy.

Right?

Everyone has said that it should be told to OBS, but there is no satisfactory clarification for this in the cause and effect relationship; it is just a "good thing".

It's the responsible and accountable thing. Knowing that if you wreck something you will take responsibility for your part in that wreck.

For example, I am telling the situation that she has to tell; "If BH wants her to tell"...Why? Because she wants to R and she has to take into account her husband's expectations.

Well, if BH doesn't care whether she tells or not? Why has she tell to OBS? Because she wants to R and what?

I guess it depends on whether she wants to be a person with integrity or a person who just says what her BH wants to hear.

If my BH asked me to re-enter that world for something then I would consider it.. but I fundamentally disagree that I, or my BH, must tell the OBS.

DI, the challenge here is well illustrated in your statement that if your BH asked you to do it, you’d consider it. That demonstrates the kind of fluidity of conviction that I know contributed to my A. Your actions need to be rooted in what you know to be right. When it comes to helping your BH heal, certainly his opinions matter, but this matter is ultimately independent of his opinion, and reflects more on your willingness to accept responsibility for your actions.

Simply put, until you can accept that your responsibility to yourself mirrors your responsibilities to those around you, you’re living on an unequal footing where your concerns (R with your BH, moral comfort) supersede those of others with whom we interact. That’s why people are stating that this makes you continually unsafe- Because this implicitly minimizes the impact of your actions.

A great read to help understand how to recover the self you thought you knew and are likely grieving as you try to resolve with facing your actions is Covey’s “7 Habits of Highly Effective People.” He describes effective as “integral,” where your daily actions are consistent with your beliefs and overarching principles. That requires reflection and effort, and simply putting this behind you won’t get you that.

A lot of folks come here eager to R, but asking how to get there without spending a lot of time discovering and understanding yourself is a recipe for disappointment.

[This message edited by JBWD at 11:55 AM, April 9th (Friday)]

Hi OP, in your first post:

I feel like my life without him is so pointless and don't understand how I could have made such utterly stupid and devastating decisions. He is the person for me and I am willing to do anything to have another chance.

A chance to show him how much I love him, how much I want to rebuild his trust and faith in me and have a chance to repair our marriage.

And you cant even start with telling the truth to his wife?

This is the golden chance to prove your husband that you are taking serious step towards bettering yourself to become a safe partner. As a betrayed partner I always notice the actions not words. Actions matter words dont.

guvensiz, just curious. What is your infidelity story. I've gone back and tried to figure it out but I don't see anywhere that you've shared your story.

Most of the people on this thread who are encouraging/urging the OP to disclose the A to the OBS are established members who have earned respect and credibility by sharing their stories and are here because they want to help everyone who has been affected by infidelity to get out of infidelity. That includes all of the spouses. And the advice would be the same regardless of whether the OP was in S or R or D. The Wayward forum is not here to help Waywards save their Ms, but to help them recognize and own their stuff and then work towards becoming a better person. Will that make the WS a safer partner? Well, yes. Because someone with a healthy self image, strong boundaries and willingness to make things right regardless of how much it hurts them tends to be a good partner. But the primary goal is to be a good person.

So while you're giving the OP a pass on this because in your opinion, it won't help her M and you feel like that's the question she's asking, the rest of us are challenging her to do better. To want better. To expect and require more from herself than what she thinks is the right thing.

Because as I stated before, to the OP, your best thinking is what got you where you are. Your judgment and decision making are flawed. They will be for a while. No one here is trying to punish you, or give you a hard time. We are trying to help you through something we've seen too many times. We know how this story line plays out. It's like the old joke about the rabbi, the priest and the minister who were fishing. The priest realizes that he has to go to the bathroom. Not wanting to disturb the fishing of the others in the boat by having them take him to shore, he gets out of the boat and walks across the water to do his business and then returns to the boat. A little while later the minister has to go also and he does the same. He walks across the water, does his business and returns across the water to the boat. Finally the rabbi feels the urge to go to the bathroom too, so he climbs out of the boat. But instead of walking across the water, he falls into the water and starts to wildly splash around. The priest and the minister finally drag the rabbi back into the boat and the priest turns to the minister and says, "Maybe we should have told him where the rocks were."

We know where the rocks are. We're trying to show them to you.

I wanted to give him time without putting him under pressure to talk, but I'm so scared that the more time that passes the more he will realise he is better off without me.

You keep giving him the time that he needs. If he wants to talk to you, but not about the affair or anything related to your marriage, then you respect that. Talk to him about whatever he is comfortable talking about. If and when he does he want to talk about your affair or your past marriage or a possible future, then you listen and respond. There is absolutely a chance that giving him that time will give him the chance to realize that he is better off without you. That's a fact that you have to come to terms with. Many many many people will tell you "you have to be ok with losing the marriage to possibly build a new one." It absolutely sucks, but so did your cheating in a much bigger way. I was deathly afraid that giving N the space he needed would only prove to him that he was better off without me. I definitely failed at it. Give the man the space he is asking for. Be there, but don't push.

You said you want to prove that you want a life with him but don't know how when he doesn't want to talk. You do that by your actions, which again many have already said. You tell your bh that you will always be available for whenever he wants to talk or meetup. When he does text, you answer right back. If he says he wants to spend some time together, you meet him. Do not talk to other men or go out with any. I don't know what your profession is, but do not allow yourself to be alone with other men. Always make sure there are other people around. Ask your bh if he is ok with you texting at least once a day just to check in. If he says yes, then please don't forget to check in. Even if you forget once, he could easily think that he is not important enough to you.

Write a timeline and make a copy. If and when he asks for one, then you will have it at the ready. The other copy will be for the OBS, for if or when she asks for it. Listen, you have no idea if the OWS is going to come clean to his wife. He may never. His wife may go the rest of her life believing she had the perfect husband. Would you say that is fair? How exactly you would tell her? I'm not sure how you would, but she absolutely deserves to hear the truth from you and her WS. She may want to meet with you to hear it come from your own mouth. If she does, then you meet with her. You tell her the truth about it all. You answer any questions she has. If all she wants to do is scream and yell at you, then you stand there and listen. You bottle up all of your defense mechanisms. You do not blame shift. You do not get defensive. You do not get angry. You gather up any amount of sympathy and empathy you have and you give it to that woman.

Keep coming back here. It will suck a lot but that's only because the people are pointing out that in which you are afraid to admit to yourself.

I'll be crass.

This isn't the first time I see an OP that doesn't look like a really story.

Every one of the OP's posts look like someone wrote dumb stuff to get some kind of sick attention.

I've seen several of these types of posts and I don't reply, but this seems as fake as hell.

No details, nothing really personal added, just general bemoaning "I know I did the wrong thing, I know WW are supposed to do this that and the other thing".

Do you? How are you so informed yet so damn colourless in your description of what happened.

"How do I make my man see I love him blabla" no one can answer that because there's no info to go on.

If this is one of those attention seekers and it really looks that way, hope you burn.