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I think what you and ff are concerned about is that it goes against YOUR values, your idea of what is right and moral in the world.

Other folks don't share those thoughts

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Well i don't agree with many things.

Polygamy for example. Nope not my cup of tea. Yet i don't see polygamists insisting that i include them in my day to day speech. I don't see them insisting that multiple partners is the ONLY way to have a good relationship.

Woman being told to keep their faces covered.

Nope not something i agree with. But they don't insist i wear a head covering. And i don't demand they take theirs off.

I refuse to walk on eggshelss and tip toe throughout life fearing i'll offend someone because in todays society you're ALWAYS going to offend someone.

** Posting as a member **

Well, a man IS a man, and a woman IS a woman.

The trouble is that there is a wide range in between and outside of 'man' and 'woman'. Reality is analog, not digital. There are human beings with many characteristics of multiple genders.

Some languages do not use gender in their grammar. English does. How does forcing people into one of 2 genders help anything when gender is often mixed? More important, how does forcing people into one of 2 genders help anything when gender is so often irrelevant?

50 years ago, many people objected to 'Ms'. Now it's in common use. With luck, gender-neutral English will be in common use in a lot less than 50 years.

I'd have big problems with laws requiring certain usages, though. I get your dissatisfaction.

It seems that many of you are confusing GENDER with biological plumbing.

Gender neutral/inclusive is NOT disrespectful, it is meant to INCLUDE ALL humans.

Biology is not the same as gender Dragn. And your right to free speech is not absolute. You cannot use speech to start a riot. You cannot create panic by yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater where there is no fire. These are only a few examples.

Of course you can teach your children how organisms reproduce. This will involve biological females and males in our species, but these biological roles are not necessarily indicative of the individual's gender identification.

No one 'chooses' their (biological) sex OR their gender - it's just part of who they are. Just as whether someone is homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual or anywhere else on the spectrum is not a choice. How they BEHAVE is a choice.

What does anyone lose by using gender-inclusive language? What does anyone lose by respecting all humans? I don't get it.

Why is it wrong for me and ff to have the belief that gender isn't fluid???

Why cant we have that opinion?

You can't have an opinion about a FACT. There is a lot of evidence for the concept of misalignment between biological sex and gender. A person's gender is NOT something they decide. It's part of their BRAIN, part of THEM.

Can I have the 'opinion' that the earth is flat? Well that would make me a moron, because there is substantial evidence that the earth is (mostly) round, not flat.

There are facts and there are opinions. Just because you don't understand the facts doesn't mean that your opinion is valid. Reasonable people cannot disagree on facts. Reasonable people can have different opinions about non-factual issues.

So no, you can't have 'your opinion' about gender misalignment/fluidity, because it contradicts scientific fact. You CAN have an opinion about the need for gender-inclusive speech.

I'd have big problems with laws requiring certain usages, though.

why?

Dragn, as you said in your first post, you are going to get flamed. I understand the passion, but as you can see, there is only one acceptable way to think, feel and believe. Despite the social consequences that with their views. No amount of reason, science or fact will change that. Just know, you aren’t alone.

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On a side note, my corner of the world is about 20 little villages with 300-500 people per community. Everybody knows everybody kind of places. And by extension, are related connected to people from neighbouring communities. I talk with the generations older than myself frequently, and the topic of transgenderism comes up from time to time. To this day, none of those I’ve spoken too, or myself have heard of a transgender in our communities. Until my 17 year old nephew went to high school. Apparently, there are 7 in his school of 300. Anecdotal, but a puzzling all the same.

Call it being inclusive and respectful all you want, but there is still a social responsibility to a child’s formative years. Confusing children emotional, mentally and genetically is not respectful nor inclusive. This topic has far reaching consequences that go well beyond calling Bob, Sue. Especially when puberty blockers and life altering surgery on children come into play.

It is a much larger picture, folks. And something women will suffer for more than anyone else. It’s also a topic that is fast becoming taboo with only one way to think, or as the case is here, law.

What does anyone lose by using gender-inclusive language? What does anyone lose by respecting all humans? I don't get it.

Gender is not fluid and gender neutral language doesn't work when it comes to explaining biological procreation.

Of course you can teach your children how organisms reproduce. This will involve biological females and males in our species,

THAT is what we have been told NOT to teach.

And thanks but i have read the studies and scientific reports. One report found that the male or female brain (which is independent of physical sex) is dependent on estrogen released before or just after birth. I get it. They look one way but feel another.

That still doesn't mean i should go to jail for not wanting to change how i speak or what i teach my kids about reproduction.

I talk with the generations older than myself frequently, and the topic of transgenderism comes up from time to time. To this day, none of those I’ve spoken too, or myself have heard of a transgender in our communities.

no, because until recently it was socially unacceptable to come out in the identity and gender one wanted to be.

Now, it's become more acceptable, except for sticklers who just refuse to consider there may be another way.

Beck then, those wanting to live their lives as transgendered were in closets, committing suicide, etc.

[This message edited by sewardak at 2:39 PM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

Gender is not fluid

NOT TRUE.

gender neutral language doesn't work when it comes to explaining biologic procreation

I can understand this because procreation is related to biology and NOT to gender.

Just to clarify, Hasbro is not eliminating Mr. & Mrs. Potato Head from their product line. They just dropped "Mr" from the overall brand name. So, for example, one would now buy a "Darth Vader Potato Head" toy instead of a "Darth Vader Mr. Potato Head" toy. You can still get Mr. Potato Head, if that cools anyone's jets here.

Gender is not fluid

NOT TRUE.

I can understand this because procreation is related to biology and NOT to gender.

How is gender not fluid when describing biological functions and reproduction?

Still need a female and a male for natural reproduction.

It just boggles my mind that theres such a huge push to change a toy brand name when theres really more pressing problems in the world imo

Wars are raging, people are starving to death, our planet is dying. Sure lets make a big fuss over a damn toy.

Dragn, because as relates to this topic, gender and biological sex are considered different things.

As I understand it, a biological male is always a biological male, because of their chromosomes. But if they identify and/or express as female, female is their gender. Not their sex.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 3:17 PM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

Yes i get that.

I do not agree with things like changing toy brand names and making the phrase "breast feeding" wrong.

I also dont agree with the school teaching my kids that "some people" get pregnant.

No, biological females get pregnant.

Theres NOTHING wrong with saying that. Even better if they go on to include that some of those biological females may have an alternative gender identity.

Fixed word

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 3:19 PM, April 20th (Tuesday)]

How is gender not fluid when describing biological functions and reproduction?

A person's gender identity is NOT NECESSARILY the same as their biological sex. Sex does not equal gender. These are two (possibly) different entities.

You are CONFUSING these two things to mean the same thing. They are NOT (always).

Just because you do not understand the distinction does not mean that is doesn't exist.

Read and re-read Darkness Falls.

It just boggles my mind that theres such a huge push to change a toy brand name when theres really more pressing problems in the world imo

Wars are raging, people are starving to death, our planet is dying. Sure lets make a big fuss over a damn toy.

I don't think there was a "huge push." Hasbro decided to change it to be more inclusive. I'm not aware of a massive campaign to persuade them to do so. I suppose a cynic might speculate that they knew doing it would throw a spotlight on their product, and "there's no such thing as bad publicity." The outrage got them a lot of press.

Gender issues are critically important in my house, though. I don't care about the title of a plastic potato, but I care very much about my son's right to his affirmed identity.

Gender issues are critically important in my house, though. I don't care about the title of a plastic potato, but I care very much about my son's right to his affirmed identity.

Yes! And we should all be comfortable affirming that identity.

No, biological females get pregnant.

This is not true either. SOME biological females get pregnant. MOST biological females CAN get pregnant. Not all who gender-identify as female can get pregnant. Not all who have been pregnant gender-identify as female.

A transgender man with female sex organs and hormones can usually get pregnant. This exact scenario has happened.

A transgender man with female sex organs and hormones can usually get pregnant. This exact scenario has happened.

This is a biological female who transitioned to male yes?

Still a biological female.

Instead of the headline man gets pregnant it should be transgender male gets pregnant and thats not a big deal.

This is not true either. SOME biological females get pregnant.

OMG. Yes not all biological woman can get pregnant. But can we all agree that you must be biologically female, have female organs to get pregnant?

Teaching anything else is wrong imo.

This is a biological female who transitioned to male yes?

Still a biological female.

Exactly what I said!!

But can we all agree that you must be biologically female, have female organs to get pregnant?

With technology the way it is at present, yes, this would be a true statement. And a biological female, of whatever gender, is INCLUDED as a subset of 'some people'.

What is so terrible about that?