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Newest Member: Jokeisonme

Divorce/Separation :
I am divorced!

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The1stWife ( member #58832) posted at 6:49 AM on Saturday, December 18th, 2021

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

posts: 12142   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8704884
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 2:19 AM on Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022

A very small update that would be entertaining for me except that it is so freaking expensive.

I received an invoice from my attorney today for about $1500. I was completely unaware of any legal activity since my appellate hearing so I emailed my attorney for clarification.

My xWW filed a request for need-based attorneys fees from me for filing the appeal. The $1500 was for the ~5 hours that was required to file the response. I had not heard of it for a legitimate issue with my email account (long story that's boring).

So, in reading the claim, they are claiming that my xWW is soooooo poor that she cannot afford the legal fees and that I should pay them because I make more money than her. This is such bullshit because (and I am not making this up):

1. If you use the judge's numbers on my income, her income, child support, and alimony... she literally makes 54% of our combined, net income.

2. She admitted that she had to pay for these legal fees from her "401K". Meaning, her request for need-based attorney's fees includes an admission that she has the money.

3. Since our divorce has been finalized, she has paid off her car loan (in cash) and purchased a relatively new Honda Pilot (I am guessing model year 2018 or 2019). She sold the marital home for $60,000 more than the value for which it was appraised as part of divorce and she purchased a new house that cost $110,000 more than the sale of the marital home.

Our response basically repeated a lot of what was covered as part of the appeal (i.e., her net income is higher than mine, her income far exceeds her budget), an explanation that proper documentation is missing (for example, what is the size of this 401K?), and a quote from the judge's ruling that explicitly explains that my xWW received very large quantities of assets as part of the divorce.

My attorney basically said that she will go nuts if the court grants her attorneys fees.

Meanwhile, we're now about 45 days from receiving the ruling from the appellate court.

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8713209
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Tigersrule77 ( member #47339) posted at 2:34 AM on Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022

So you had to pay $1,500 to dispute paying your XWW's attorney fees of how much? I'm guessing it was quite a bit more than $1,500.

posts: 1593   ·   registered: Mar. 27th, 2015   ·   location: Maryland
id 8713212
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leafields ( member #63517) posted at 3:41 AM on Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022

Interestingly, you started this post one year ago today. What are the odds?

I just hope you're getting closer to being DONE!

It sucks that they weren't forward in stating they were doing some work, but I really hope yo get some justice. Cheering for you.

BW M 34years, Dday 1: 2/18, Dday 2: 8/19, D final 2/25/21

posts: 1180   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2018   ·   location: Washington State
id 8713217
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 5:54 PM on Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022

So you had to pay $1,500 to dispute paying your XWW's attorney fees of how much? I'm guessing it was quite a bit more than $1,500.


Nonetheless, I suggested a settlement offer to my attorney. xWW is to be awarded about $35,000 in alimony for the next 7 years. My attorney estimates a full appeal will cost $20K, maybe $10K if we cut costs here and there. I estimate that xWW will need to spend the same. So, assuming a $20K combined legal cost for both of us (at the low end), I proposed that I give our children the $20K that we would spend on legal fees. I'd pay it in equal amounts each month until the 7 years is up. I keep the remaining $15K.


From a previous Barcher144 post. I'd say whacked ex will be on the higher end so about 20k or higher. I suspect an attorney as scrupulous as Barcher's appears to be wouldn't have allowed the ex to proceed this far.

posts: 1216   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8713334
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 7:25 PM on Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022

So you had to pay $1,500 to dispute paying your XWW's attorney fees of how much? I'm guessing it was quite a bit more than $1,500.

It cost me $1500 in billed hours to my attorney to submit a response because xWW was requesting the court force me to pay her ~$6,500 in legal costs.

My attorney estimates a full appeal will cost $20K, maybe $10K if we cut costs here and there. I estimate that xWW will need to spend the same.

My attorney fees for the appeal have been about $10,000. I had to pay some additional costs because I was the appellant. For example, I had to pay for the transcripts from trial, which was something like $2000. I had to pay some extra filing fees too.

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8713346
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 7:26 PM on Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022

Interestingly, you started this post one year ago today. What are the odds?

I know, right?

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8713347
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 7:30 PM on Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022

A slight update on my post from last night.

I looked more carefully at the motion to have me pay for attorney's fees. My xWW filed that motion on her own, pro se.

I am certain that she did this because her attorney knows that filing this claim would be 100% frivolous. I am still going to include it in my ethical complaint because her attorney in a very cagey move submitted an affidavit appended to the motion that verified that all of the bills that xWW incurred in defending my appeal were valid.

That is, this very much looks like an attorney-filed motion but it was literally pro se because the motion was frivolous/unethical for an attorney to file.

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8713350
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TooOld ( new member #74671) posted at 7:28 PM on Thursday, February 3rd, 2022

Hi Barcher,

I have followed your story for a long time. I know how horrible the divorce process continues to be. I don't know where your case is being heard, but in most jurisdictions the party seeking attorney's fees must provide proof beyond the bills, hence the affidavit which is filed under threat of perjury. You can file a complaint with your the state bar, but why bother. The attorney didn't file the motion and the affidavit maybe necessary for a valid filing. If those are the facts, you nor the state bar can determine motivation and frankly the state bar won't care. Even if your wife's lawyer suggested it, your wife filed it. I never practiced family law, but I know that my state bar is overwhelmed with complaints like those against Michael Avenatti, where lawyers steal money or abandon their client. If it makes you fell better, go for it, but it is not likely to even generate a letter to your wife's lawyer from the state bar. You have been through so much, is something you can let go of? Just a thought.

posts: 12   ·   registered: Jun. 25th, 2020   ·   location: SoCal
id 8713585
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 7:33 PM on Thursday, February 3rd, 2022

If it makes you fell better, go for it, but it is not likely to even generate a letter to your wife's lawyer from the state bar. You have been through so much, is something you can let go of? Just a thought.

I get your point... but honestly, filing an ethics complaint would help me let go of it.

I had a chat elsewhere in the wide wide world of the internet and based on what I was saying... I was encouraged to file a complaint.

One other comment from that conversation was that perhaps there is something wrong/unethical with my judge, which becomes very dangerous ground to walk on. If I "win" my appeal, we will almost certainly end up back in front of my judge... so I am going to have a chat with my attorney ahead of time about when/whether she should ask the judge to recuse himself. His decisions from the preliminary hearing in May 2019 were ridiculous (he waited 8 weeks to make a ruling and then required that I move out within 7 days?). A few of his decisions at trial were also very curious... such as, in his ruling... he literally discussed the pertinent statutes and case law... but then said, no I am going to rule differently. My concern is that he might come up with some weird way to punish me for appealing his decision.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 7:38 PM, Thursday, February 3rd]

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8713586
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katmandude54 ( member #35992) posted at 7:01 PM on Sunday, February 13th, 2022

Some of us don't immediately realize how "LUCKY" our own divorces were.
Mine: Wife abandoned/moved out/left in March 2016.
I finally filed in September 2020 after begging, pleading, haranguing her to try to do it between us. Could not get anywhere plus we had a house foreclosure to deal with in that time as well.
SO, she never got a lawyer, never contested anything, just simply agreed. I JUST WANTED HER GONE so I agreed to no child support (she made more, AND she's 15 years younger) and I also wanted to avoid having a tit-for-tat over Social Security and pensions. Plus she also got one contempt citation threat for not filling out financials.
Anyway, I spent $2,500 total for my divorce over the 9-month ordeal. BUT, I also spent and extra $6,000 on my income taxes due to the foreclosure that she would not pony up, an extra $3,600 for back income taxes due to her underpaying previous years, $5,500 for a new AC system for the house going into foreclosure that she would not pay for, both of which came AFTER she walked out. SO, all in all, I spent close to $20,000 to be rid of her. Money well worth it in my estimation. WE ARE DIVORCED. laugh

If at first you don't succeed, you're probably screwed.

posts: 166   ·   registered: Jul. 1st, 2012   ·   location: FLORIDA
id 8715911
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Wiseoldfool ( member #78413) posted at 8:08 PM on Sunday, February 13th, 2022

The rules that a lawyer has to follow with respect to an opposing party are quite more narrow than the rules that apply to a lawyer and his/her own client.

If you can't articulate precisely which rule of professional conduct your opposing counsel violated, with evidence, you're wasting everyone's time. "(s)he said/wrote things that aren't true" isn't going to get it. Not even close.

Every secret you keep with your affair partner sustains the affair. Every lie you tell, every misunderstanding you permit, every deflection you pose, every omission you allow sustains the affair.

posts: 227   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2021
id 8715925
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leafields ( member #63517) posted at 10:13 PM on Sunday, February 13th, 2022

Sorry, posted on wrong thread.

[This message edited by leafields at 10:15 PM, Sunday, February 13th]

BW M 34years, Dday 1: 2/18, Dday 2: 8/19, D final 2/25/21

posts: 1180   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2018   ·   location: Washington State
id 8715953
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 1:25 PM on Thursday, February 17th, 2022

If you can't articulate precisely which rule of professional conduct your opposing counsel violated, with evidence, you're wasting everyone's time. "(s)he said/wrote things that aren't true" isn't going to get it. Not even close.

Honestly, if I get to waste some of opposing counsel's time, then I'll be happy with that. I have a very low bar of expectations.

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8716754
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emergent8 ( member #58189) posted at 6:05 PM on Thursday, February 17th, 2022

Honestly, if I get to waste some of opposing counsel's time, then I'll be happy with that. I have a very low bar of expectations.

If the move were frivolous (and it would be if there were no articulable professional violation), this would likely constitute an abuse of process and could result in sanctions against you if the lawyer were motivated to seek them.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 6:05 PM, Thursday, February 17th]

Me: BS, Him: WS. Mid-late 30s.
Together 15 years, married 6 (11 m at D-Day).
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
5 years (and two toddlers) into R. Happy.

posts: 947   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8716809
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gmc94 ( Guide #62810) posted at 4:41 AM on Friday, February 18th, 2022

I recently heard of a lawyer who routinely sues people who make bar complaints against them - even clients (it's kind of a black hole in the rules of some states). Something to consider.

M >25yrs/grown kids
DD1 1994 ONS prostitute
DD2 2018 exGF1 10+yrEA & 10yrPA... + exGF2 EA forever & "made out" 2017
9/18 WH hung himself- died but revived

It's rude to say "I love you" with a mouthful of lies

posts: 3810   ·   registered: Feb. 22nd, 2018
id 8716972
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thatbpguy ( member #58540) posted at 4:08 AM on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2022

Barcher, been following this thread from the beginning. Been thru 26 containers of Orville R's popcorn. A few random thoughts...

1. I am not an attorney, but I am a large loss litigation claims rep. Been so for over 32 years. If you do file a bar complaint (and I'm not so sure it's a good idea), wait until everything is over. Otherwise, his response will be that you're trying to intimidate him and his client. Second, if you do file with the bar, have an attorney provide you with appropriate state ethics rules and address them with evidence. I've filed several and whenever I can quote chapter & verse and back it up, they get hammered.

2. With respect to your kids and your ex setting them against you... my wife's ex did the same thing- and hard. But all she did was love and respect them and within a few years they fully understood who loved them and who didn't. In fact, now they are each 30 and married and their dad has to beg them to see him. They rarely do and he's a miserable SOB over it all and we see the kids & grandkids constantly. Patience and you will win this war easily.

3. In the end most judges get it. They are getting conflicting information and need to decipher it all. I think you'll be relatively happy with the end results.

4. Lastly, if you wife ends up owing you money, it really gives you the leverage for a serious negotiation. Place a lien on the house. I did so about 20 years ago over a lawsuit I won and got paid about one year ago. The guy wanted to sell his house but my lien blocked it. I finally got paid and with interest. You will as well.

Wishing the very best for you.

BP

ME: BH Her: WW DDay 1, R; DDay 2, R; DDay 3, I left; Divorced Remarried to a wonderful woman

"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." C.S. Lewis

As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool repeats his folly...

posts: 4480   ·   registered: May. 2nd, 2017   ·   location: Vancouver, WA
id 8718018
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 3:36 PM on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2022

If the move were frivolous (and it would be if there were no articulable professional violation), this would likely constitute an abuse of process and could result in sanctions against you if the lawyer were motivated to seek them.

I would not say that my ethics complaint are frivolous.

Complaint#1: Opposing counsel went to the court through back-handed channels and claimed that I was refusing to sign a release for my mental health records from a specific provider. I did not even know about the accusation until the judge's ruling awarded my ex attorney's fees as a penalty when I refused to turn over these health records from this provider. While this seems innocuous, I never received any treatment from this provider -- opposing counsel invented this allegation out of thin air. This is lying to the court, which is explicitly a violation of legal ethics.

Complaint#2: Opposing counsel has taken positions that are completely counter to actual laws. I can't cite the actual violation of legal ethics (I don't have them memorized), but this is also an explicit violation of legal ethics.

For example, she convinced my ex that her salary for the purposes of determining child support and alimony should be based on her part-time income. In contrast, my state has clear statutes that say that all people are expected to work full time (it is clearly defines "full time") and if an individual is voluntarily underemployed that the court needs to impute their salary to the full-time equivalent. Opposing counsel did not attempt to argue any of the various exceptions to this full time rule; instead, she went with "this is always how it has been for the couple," which is not one of the exceptions. And opposing counsel stated this in writing.

Simply put, opposing counsel ran up a legal bill for her client based on negotiating positions that were completely contrary to actual laws and statutes. During negotiations, we assumed that they would eventually capitulate because their positions were so absurd that no reasonable person would go to trial like that. Yet, they did go to trial and they lost on virtually every issue. That is, opposing counsel generated ~$30,000 in billable hours for herself but screwed her client over in the process.

My first attorney once told me that opposing counsel is the type of lawyer who bankrupts their client. This is clearly not the first time this lawyer has done this.

While I have low expectations that my ethics complaint will go anywhere, my actual complaints are not frivolous or retaliatory. Opposing counsel is a slimy lawyer that abuses the law for her own personal benefit. My ethics complaint will only include complaints for which I have documentation, which is a small fraction of the total number of ethic violations committed by opposing counsel.

I recently heard of a lawyer who routinely sues people who make bar complaints against them - even clients (it's kind of a black hole in the rules of some states). Something to consider.

As far as my research goes, my state has pretty strong anti-SLAPP protections. Along those lines, the lawyer would need to have quantifiable damages. There is also the Streisand Effect that the lawyer needs to consider.

If you do file a bar complaint (and I'm not so sure it's a good idea), wait until everything is over.

Yep. I have spoken to my attorney about this and she suggested the same. There is a reason why I have yet to file a complaint.

Second, if you do file with the bar, have an attorney provide you with appropriate state ethics rules and address them with evidence. I've filed several and whenever I can quote chapter & verse and back it up, they get hammered.

I already have them. The bar association in my state has them available online.

With respect to your kids and your ex setting them against you... Patience and you will win this war easily.

Yes, I think that I am in really good shape with my kids over the long term. I have a great relationship with the oldest and the youngest right now. The situation with the middle child is not great, but I think that's mostly because she's 15 and she doesn't want to hang out with her father.

My only concern is that one (or all) of my kids will stop talking to me. It's hard to win the war if I don't have any relationship with them at all.

In the end most judges get it. They are getting conflicting information and need to decipher it all. I think you'll be relatively happy with the end results.

I think my judge has a bias against me but it's not a huge deal. I didn't quite get this until my lawyer submitted our appellate brief, but in his ruling on alimony and child support... he correctly described the evidence in front of him... and the pertinent statutes that should guide his decision... but then he basically said "I am going to rule otherwise." It was almost as if he was asking us to appeal. It was weird, in hindsight.

Anyway, I am not especially worried about the judge. My second attorney said that he was stupid and I think that's probably a pretty accurate description of him. He was appointed for political reasons (he had personal connections with the governor who appointed him), not because of his credentials.

Lastly, if you wife ends up owing you money, it really gives you the leverage for a serious negotiation. Place a lien on the house. I did so about 20 years ago over a lawsuit I won and got paid about one year ago. The guy wanted to sell his house but my lien blocked it. I finally got paid and with interest. You will as well.

Thank you for the encouragement. This is something that I am leaving for my lawyer to handle.

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8718084
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WhoTheBleep ( member #49504) posted at 9:37 PM on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2022

Popped in here to check for updates, as you were on my mind, Barcher. Lots of good advice given above. I'm glad to hear your relationship with two of your three children is strong. I think you are right about the 15-year-old. That's just a tough age for father/daughter closeness.

As I think I mentioned, STBX filed a bar complaint against my attorney last year. She was appointed an attorney by her insurance company to defend her to the bar. Stbx then filed a complaint against THAT attorney, for "conspiring and colluding to steal from him" etc etc🤣. They had to file separate affidavits swearing that they had never met each other in person in their lives, and had no knowledge of the other's existence until his initial bar complaint. The typical rant of a Cluster B. Anyway, this bar complaint (squared!) severely delayed my case, because if it went badly for my lawyer, she would have been thrown off my case and I would have been left without representation. So we had this whole little side skirmish going on for months. Just something to keep in mind, although it seems like you have decided to wait until everything is wrapped up. Excellent advice, there. As usual, hang in there, friend. You're almost there.

[This message edited by WhoTheBleep at 10:11 PM, Tuesday, February 22nd]

I believe we have two lives: the one we learn with, and the one we live with after that. --The Natural

posts: 4402   ·   registered: Sep. 6th, 2015   ·   location: USA
id 8718158
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 barcher144 (original poster member #54935) posted at 12:08 AM on Wednesday, February 23rd, 2022

Popped in here to check for updates

Hi Bleep!

I am probably three weeks away from an actual update. I am thinking March 15-ish.

Me: BH, age 48Her: WS, age 45 (multiple EAs and PAs)D-Day: August 30, 2016

Diagnosed with depression in December 2016, which was primarily caused by my xWW's affair and associated emotional abuse.

posts: 5285   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8718202
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