Talisman ( Member #75398) posted at 4:51 PM on Saturday, May 8th, 2021
You say your wife is still aloof? What exactly makes you say that ? What has she said or done or not said or not done to make you think that?
Buffer ( Member #71664) posted at 11:10 PM on Saturday, May 8th, 2021
Sorry brother she is trying but it is about her not you or the family unit. Just have her served. Then she can truly look into your recovery and not fret about her cash cow.
One day at a time
WontBeFooledAgai ( Member #72671) posted at 1:41 AM on Sunday, May 9th, 2021
I find this exercise that your WW brought up, and moreover her answer, to be bizarre and concerning. It does not take into account the situation.
We all want someone who lets us be ourselves, someone we can relax and have fun around. BUT what your WW needs to understand is that you and your marriage took a huge hit, and it was precisely your WW "being herself" which is what got you in this position in the first place! You're hurt, angry, and you rightfully so don't trust your wife after she spent the past 6 months going behind your back. And on top of that, she seems to have a hard time loving you as a wife should be loving her husband. THAT needs to be taken care of first before you can appreciate her and what a 'free spirit' she is. Please.
There is still a nugget of insight here that your WW gave you though. You do come across as a solid dependable guy, one that many women would love to have. Does your wife on some level resent you/feel that she cannot measure up/feel judged because of that.
[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:46 PM, May 8th (Saturday)]
nekonamida ( Member #42956) posted at 2:10 PM on Sunday, May 9th, 2021
It was my turn last night and my items were someone I can trust that has my back, someone who loves me for who I am, someone who is spontaneous, & someone who has a strong sex drive. She than asked me if she was any of those things and I point blank said no.
Even if R could re-build your trust in her, do you really think she'd be able to change herself in order to meet the other 3? Doesn't sound likely especially if anything she said about her attraction to you is true. Ask yourself, if she can't meet those traits or only meet one of them, would you be happy in this marriage? Would your needs be getting met? Maybe that was something you could accept before infidelity but you don't have to accept it now.
DoinBettr ( Member #71209) posted at 1:53 PM on Monday, May 10th, 2021
I was one of the people who told you months ago to file.
I filed and stayed together.
You need to first lay out what you want from your WW. Then make a list of things she would do that would initiate immediate divorce (Like talking to AP).
Don't show her the second list, just the first. Give her a couple of weeks. Then if things don't change, after a short conversation about progress file. Say you aren't seeing the marriage going towards where you would be happy. Let her counter point if she can, but ask her what actions show that.
I wanted to address the not having someone you can trust or loves you for you. Those are things you are never getting back. You will always have a little nagging self esteem issue and distrust of your spouse.
You need to find about 95% trust. You shouldn't have it now. You are only a few months out. Don't expect trust for a while (Year or so). You should have trust in yourself. Trust that if she cheats again, you will leave her so fast. That will remove some of the fear of losing her or of being weak.
I recommend focusing instead on trying to think what parts of your life she made better. Mention those and direct her to those.
I don't think your wife thinks she ever was going to lose you, because she isn't walking on eggshells or hysterical bonding. Usually they do one or the other at a minimum.
CM70 (original poster Member #76077) posted at 5:58 PM on Monday, May 10th, 2021
Thanks for the responses everyone, I will try to touch on the questions asked. Why do I say she is sill aloof? I say that because I still don't see her really trying to fix/address the issues I have put in front of her. She want's to focus on the issues of the marriage that bothered her versus what damage she did to the marriage in having an affair. Do I think the marriage was perfect? No, I do not but I have to be able to trust the person I am with before I can ever work on the things she wants/needs in the marriage.
DoinBetter, stated "I don't think your wife thinks she ever was going to lose you, because she isn't walking on eggshells or hysterical bonding." I think you are right DB she has never bonded or really walked on eggshells so she probably thinks she is in the drivers seat. I wanted to give this time to see where this would go and it really has not improved. Last weekend she initiated sex, and she just laid there like a dead fish. I told her that this is just a chore/task for you & this does not work for me & got up and left the bedroom. She tried to stop me from leaving but not real hard. The next morning she wanted me to come lay with her, and she initiated again and it was OK but the vibe is off. On a side note she has prescriptions for two different anxiety/depression drugs that she will not address with me. To her these are only taken when she really needs them & I don't think she is taking them daily as she should be which probably does not help.
AP is out of the picture physically I am sure. Mentally I don't know if he is or if she would tell me the truth if he wasn't. Her physical presence & actions towards me were the same while she was in the affair, now they are not. I have told her I cannot continue down this path and I need to see a change. I cannot make her feel or manufacture these actions.
WontBeFooledAgai, you make a valid point when you said "There is still a nugget of insight here that your WW gave you though. You do come across as a solid dependable guy, one that many women would love to have. Does your wife on some level resent you/feel that she cannot measure up/feel judged because of that." Yes IMO I think it absolutely drives her nuts because in this journey her friends & family all have told her she is making a mistake because they have said I am a great guy & she is going to regret her actions down the road. I think she resents that she can't paint me as the bad guy because people that know me don't believe her narrative.
I know many have said file over the last couple of months and I was not mentally/physically ready at that time. I would not/do not take filing for Divorce lightly. I would not use it shock her into reality. I would use it to get away from the day in day out struggle of trying to hold this relationship together and to find peace & happiness again in myself.
BlueRaspberry ( Member #76065) posted at 6:24 PM on Monday, May 10th, 2021
Sorry to hear your wife really isn't stepping up to the plate and trying to address the harm she's caused.
Right now, it looks like you're in limbo. Do you plan to give her more time with the IC to try and sort through her issues OR have you had enough? It is difficult to gage what progress (if any) she has made to date. I know you want to avoid D if you can due to your belief in long term relationships/marriage and your concern about impacting your kids. These are valid issues but you seem to be pretty miserable.
gemini12 ( New Member #78670) posted at 6:27 PM on Monday, May 10th, 2021
I'm really sorry you are going through this CM70.
I've read everything you posted up to this point and I have one question.
Do you want to stay married or not?
I know this is complicated but it really boils down to this question, imo. And yes I've been where you are.
CM70 (original poster Member #76077) posted at 7:12 PM on Monday, May 10th, 2021
Gemini, yes short answer I want to be married. But it's just not that easy.
Buster123 ( Member #65551) posted at 10:47 PM on Monday, May 10th, 2021
All I can tell you is that based on your posts your WW does not seem remorseful, and if there's no remorse there isn't a chance for a successful R, NONE! and that again based on your posts it doesn't seem like she's even trying hard enough. I hope you don't stay in limbo for much longer.
Triedntesty ( New Member #77363) posted at 1:42 AM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021
Hi CM70. Buster123 said it right "All I can tell you is that based on your posts your WW does not seem remorseful, and if there's no remorse there isn't a chance for a successful R, NONE! and that again based on your posts it doesn't seem like she's even trying hard enough. I hope you don't stay in limbo for much longer."
I remember reading your first entry when I first discovered this forum and I thought "brother has lived my life" same age as me, married the same amount of time, and our spouses followed the typical cheater's formula. This is what struck me when I first read your post and others, these fucking cheaters all BEHAVE the same way, it's like they got the same book out of the library - 100 steps to lying, deceiving, and destroying your spouses sanity, while escaping your own miserable self. Needless to say, it really sounds like your wife has not faced the full consequences of her choices, has not felt full REMORSE. Though it will be very painful for you to leave her, it is the only way she will grow to appreciate you and the error of her ways. The no contact rule is so effective. Kicking my spouse out almost killed me. I've had a great career but he ran the financials, I would blindly hand my cheque over and let him manage everything. I took care of the rest which was a lot with my career and our three kids. I trusted him with my life. And he lied his ass off. I was left having to learn everything, electrical issues, hot tub chemicals, carbon monoxide alarm needing a new battery in the middle of the night, (up the ladder I had to go half asleep in my pj's) doing my taxes, completing a financial statement for my lawyer, it was a huge learning curve for me, still is, overwhelming at times to think I don't have a life partner anymore and there is so much to do on a daily basis, running this household. But you know what? I have my dignity, I love myself, and I don't need to be stuck with a mother fucker who does not appreciate all I have done for him for our family and for his family for the past 20 years. You don't need to be anyone's second fiddle bro, it is better to be alone than to be in the company of someone who does not cherish you and value your worth. She needs a good year of therapy, on her own, her issues have nothing to do with your marriage. You need to feel it in your gut that she wants you, will always choose you, and cherishes you. I'm sure your body is telling you "yikes this does not feel right" - listen to your gut bro, when someone really loves you, you feel it in your bones. I recommend a clean break, giving it a year, giving her time to fix her issues, you will know if she is working hard to make the changes she needs to make. In that time, you may have a change of heart. That's my advice based on what I have live. After 3m my ex called me crying asking how I felt about reconciling,(I had to say no of course, he has not changed or gotten any therapy) this is how powerful no contact is, they really feel the absence of their partner and best friend of 20 yrs. All I allow him to discuss with me are finances, lawyer issues and our kids wellbeing. He does not get the luxury of a relationship with me anymore...good luck, I'm what ever decision you make will be the best one for you and your kids
RocketRaccoon ( Member #54620) posted at 3:22 AM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021
get away from the day in day out struggle of trying to hold this relationship together and to find peace & happiness again in myself.
Key point here. Why are YOU the one struggling to hold the relationship together, and not her?
Ideally both parties who want to stay in a relationship, will work at the relationship. You have been deluding yourself that this is a relationship worth holding on to, even though your WS does not think so.
If your WS were working on the M as hard as you were, it would not be a struggle.
Right now, it is an asymmetric relationship, where your WS wields the power and control, and you are struggling to hold on for..... what? Hope that she snaps out of her own delusions?
CM70, you seem to be a good man, who cares deeply for your WW. The problem is, you seem to be ignoring YOUR own needs at the expense of keeping the M alive.
TheWrongOne ( Member #78753) posted at 2:07 PM on Tuesday, May 11th, 2021
CM70 your wife is very similar to mine. Mine never addressed the issues that caused her to cheat on me fifteen years ago, and we swept the affair under the rug, and here I am again in the same boat all these years later. I would spare you future anguish and heartache and implore you to divorce your wife. Judging by her attitude nothing is going to change until you decide to change it. Don't waste years of your life like I did.
CM70 (original poster Member #76077) posted at 3:47 PM on Thursday, May 13th, 2021
Hey Everyone, thanks for the great thoughtful responses. I am directing this question to Triedntesty since our stories are very similar it seems. So did you legally separate or did you file for divorce? I don't think I could just separate for a year to give her time to work on herself in her own place. If I am going to do this I am going to file for divorce. We are coming on almost 6 months from DD and things have not changed.
HalfTime2017 ( Member #64366) posted at 6:34 PM on Thursday, May 13th, 2021
CM70 - If you have not read TheWrongOne's thread just above yours, I'd suggest you head over there. His is not the only example on this forum by the way, just the latest returning BS that once again, caught their WW in another affair b/c the issues were not address correctly the first time around.
So many times, there is a rush to fix things. Not just on the side of the BS, to bring normal back, but also from WWs b/c they want to get away from the wreckage that they caused, but theyve never really address the underlying damage to the framework of your marriage or themselves.
MyShovel ( New Member #74975) posted at 9:58 PM on Thursday, May 13th, 2021
CM70 - I'm now a firm believer in evaluating actions over words. The comments caught on VAR plus the starfish sex tell you a lot about what your WW thinks of you. The next morning's encounter felt off because she was acting, poorly, and your eyes are now wide-open.
This is just one aspect to consider when determining your ultimate course of action. Many of us have had similar experiences, right down to the getting up and leaving the room moment. Can you continue in the marriage with a partner for whom the spark has gone out? Anecdotal evidence suggests plenty of older people do, but at what cost? Crushing resentment at being seen as little more than the chore-boy or homemaker or housemate with a nice income? I like to joke that I could become Brad Pitt with Bill Gates' money and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference!
No answers here. Most of us would rather stay married, or more accurately would rather our current spouses had never become lying cheaters. Got to play the hand we're dealt, I guess.
BlueRaspberry ( Member #76065) posted at 12:12 AM on Saturday, May 15th, 2021
In mid April, you wrote
I have seen much more emotion & real regret out of my WW as of late because she knows I am burned out and tired of hearing I need more time. I think she is finally coming around to figure out that she has real issues, even though she had denied this in the past & blamed me for her personal happiness. When your own Mother tells you need real help & you are in a middle of breakdown it is finally hitting home. Her family is not in her corner & that really threw her for a loop that they didn't believe her narrative about me. That's where I am at just another day, but I am a much better place mentally then I was a couple months ago.
In early May, you wrote
...we are still in limbo. We have would I call the State of the Union of our relationship discussion last night. The WW has been home the majority of the time and not going out with the friends that have caused troubles in the past. Her IC came up with an exercise to tell each other what you would want your ideal partner's traits to be. She went last week, and the majority of her items dealt with letting her be herself, listening, making her laugh, etc. It was my turn last night and my items were someone I can trust that has my back, someone who loves me for who I am, someone who is spontaneous, & someone who has a strong sex drive. She than asked me if she was any of those things and I point blank said no.
Recently, you wrote
...she has never bonded or really walked on eggshells so she probably thinks she is in the drivers seat. I wanted to give this time to see where this would go and it really has not improved. Last weekend she initiated sex, and she just laid there like a dead fish. I told her that this is just a chore/task for you & this does not work for me & got up and left the bedroom. She tried to stop me from leaving but not real hard. The next morning she wanted me to come lay with her, and she initiated again and it was OK but the vibe is off. On a side note she has prescriptions for two different anxiety/depression drugs that she will not address with me. To her these are only taken when she really needs them & I don't think she is taking them daily as she should be which probably does not help…I have told her I cannot continue down this path and I need to see a change. I cannot make her feel or manufacture these actions.
So far, it appears she started to make some progress but has flatlined in terms of addressing her issues and helping you heal. Do you think the change in IC contributed? The second IC did not put up with her nonsense. Perhaps that is why she wanted to switch - it was too hard to fix what she sees in the mirror. Have you had a chance to talk to her current IC? You need to find out what progress (if any) she has made or could make in the near future.
What did she say when you told her she did not have any of your ideal partner's traits? Did she say you had any of her ideal partner's traits? Is she taking any steps to work on those traits? It sounds like she is making minimal effort and not trying to truly reconcile.
redwing6 ( Member #72593) posted at 8:10 PM on Saturday, May 15th, 2021
We are coming on almost 6 months from DD and things have not changed.
If that is the case, go ahead and file. You can always stop the process, but if you're heading where I think, file now and follow through with your plan.
WW #2 D'd after 6month EA who scammed her out of our life savings
WW #1 51 since remaired twice continues to cheat even today
WW #2 Refuses to admit she wrecked our marriage
DD adult 32
DSD adult 33
DSS adult 30
Thumos ( Member #69668) posted at 9:13 PM on Saturday, May 15th, 2021
She want's to focus on the issues of the marriage that bothered her versus what damage she did to the marriage in having an affair. Do I think the marriage was perfect? No, I do not but I have to be able to trust the person I am with before I can ever work on the things she wants/needs in the marriage.
Very common unfortunately. The problem is twofold: The old marriage is dead. She made sure of that. So working on that marriage is de facto nonsense. The other problem is that every marriage, especially even the good ones, have challenges. Lots of challenges. Those challenges or "problems" (altho usually they aren't very big problems, let's be honest) can be addressed before infidelity. After infidelity, the trauma of betrayal must be dealt with, and only that for a good long time. And I'm willing to bet your WW is now engaging in a lot of theatrical posturing and an inaccurate reframing of the prior marriage, telling a new story about the marriage that doesn't ring true. Am I right?
Last weekend she initiated sex, and she just laid there like a dead fish. I told her that this is just a chore/task for you & this does not work for me & got up and left the bedroom. She tried to stop me from leaving but not real hard. The next morning she wanted me to come lay with her, and she initiated again and it was OK but the vibe is off.
This is probably about as good as it gets. My WW is the opposite. Off the charts HB and initiates sex often and enthusiastically. This is known as sex/love bombing. Either way it's difficult. But when you're getting the starfish treatment you have to wonder when does that get better? Two healthy people in their late 40s/early 50s who are attracted to each other should be boinking like bunnies.
I cannot make her feel or manufacture these actions.
You can't negotiate attraction, and you deserve far more in life than a dead bedroom/ occasional starfish sex with an unfaithful woman. I don't mean to tear down your WW, but I'm sure you realize by now there are plenty of attractive, smart, funny, sexy, awesome women out there -- many who will be attracted to you and will enjoy sex with you and will want to be a good life partner.
You don't need to distract yourself by thinking about a dating life just now, but the point of that thought experiment is to ask yourself what you're really getting from this woman.
No woman (or man) is particularly special. There are no soulmates. There are dozens of wonderful women in your close geographic proximity who would make you a happy man. You'd never have time to develop a relationship with all of them.
Does your WW measure up to them, or not? Is that good enough for you or not?
I know many have said file over the last couple of months and I was not mentally/physically ready at that time. I would not/do not take filing for Divorce lightly.
Nor should you. I don't feel ready myself. When you're ready, you'll be ready. Don't let others make that decision for you.
Right now you are faced with the classic "regret vs. remorse" conundrum. WS's who are filled with regret and perhaps guilt, and are more interested in fleeing the burning building they set on fire. It's also known as real remorse vs. naugahyde remorse.
I can't remember has your WW read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" -- and if so, how did she react to it? Have you read it? Do you feel she's acting as the "healer" the author of the book describes?
[This message edited by Thumos at 3:18 PM, May 15th (Saturday)]
"True character is revealed in the choices a human being makes under pressure. The greater the pressure, the deeper the revelation, the truer the choice to the character's essential nature."
BH (me): 50, WW: 49
Married: Feb. 1996
DDAY: Dec. 20
CM70 (original poster Member #76077) posted at 5:53 AM on Sunday, May 16th, 2021
BlueRas, yes I saw hints of remorse & some positive signs when she was seeing the second counselor. When she switched it has gone down hill since then. I believe you are right the second counselor was being to hard on her & telling her the truth. I looked at her kindle yesterday as it was sitting on the bed and she is reading a book "To Good to Leave to Bad to Stay". When she should be reading "How to help your Spouse Heal your from you Affair." She did start reading this a few months ago but then stopped because it was to hard to hear the truth. I have read it and thought it was decent. It's just sad that she can't come out of it, but I have really tried.
To Thumos yes I do deserve better from life and I know there are great women out there. Currently I am getting pretty much nothing from this women except for being good with our kids.