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BlueRas, she has always had some anxiety most of it dealt with public speaking. It has grown in the last few years to expand to anxiety to life in general if that makes sense?

Lurkster, in speaking with her Mom the AP is currently out of the picture and has not been mentioned in a month. The sense I get it is she is fighting internal demons, a mid life crisis and guilt over what she has done.

MG, I think you are on point in your evaluation of WW that is what I am thinking as well. I am to the point of do I want to deal with this crap much longer? I have told her recently is you need to show me something that you want to be in this and I have to believe you...

[This message edited by CM70 at 8:09 PM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

CM70,

Thanks for the response. You're a good man and handling this admirably.

If your instincts are correct, it sounds like she's coming out of the fog and doesn't like what she sees. So, if she keeps working on herself, it could take some time. The question for you is how long are you willing to wait and that is entirely up to you.

As strange as it sounds, she's actually making progress. I would give her some more time to continue working with her IC and understanding why she did what she did.

In the interim, please take care of yourself and your kids.

All of WS’ actions right now indicate that she doesn’t want to reconcile, but feels she needs to reconcile because it is the “path of least destruction” for everyone. CM70 is still second place. The worst reconciliation is the one where it happens through logic not love or both logic and love.

Smells like a break before a repeat rather than reconciliation.

CM70,

If that’s your take, that’s a good thing. I think I made the leap that if she spends all this time talking with mom and sister, but can’t say anything to you, then she is still stuck in the limerence and can’t find a way to commit to you.

You are handling this whole thing with more patience than she deserves and I’m really rooting for you to be able to R.

Anxiety before public speaking is the number 1 anxiety-generating issue. I'm going to call BS on that. Everybody has anxiety before public speaking. It doesn't progress to other areas.

I have told her recently is you need to show me something that you want to be in this and I have to believe you...

Not just that she wants to be in this, but that she has purged the OM from her heart and has nothing but disdain left for him.

Until that point the process of R cannot even begin.

Your words and sentiment were good but only scratched the surface at describing what she needs to do.

Leafields, you are right everybody does have anxiety probably when they would speak in public. In the WW case her anxiety level has increased exponentially in the last few years. She tries to be a perfectionist and is a worrier by nature which has only gotten worse with age.

Stevesn, you are right I told her that exact thing that until you see the AP as an enemy to the marriage and he is 100% out of your heart there can be no us.

Something I was oblivious to until this happened was analyzing her family & their issues. Her parents divorced when she was eight years old which was a traumatic experience. Her Dad was not always reliable and was a functioning alcoholic that had and accident in which he fell down the stairs when he was plastered a few years ago. He was in a coma and came out of it but then he started having major withdrawls which forced him into going dry and being in rehab. He is OK now but another trauma experience in her life. Her younger Half Sister is a recovering druggy which started when she came out of Highschool and she has been in & out of rehab over the last ten years. She is clean now, and is doing OK. Her middle Sister was big time druggy in college & almost failed out but has been clean for the last 20 years. She has a family is a great teacher & totally normal now. The WW Mom is a great person but is on many anti-depression medicines & has her own demons with mental health. I did not know any of these things of course when I married my wife and she never had any issues with alcohol or drugs. The thing that is obvious is her family were all fighting demons of some sort & had addictions or other issues. My WW is a result of her family past & her genetic traits she inherited from her parents. I almost think my wife may need deeper psychiatric help then she has been getting.

[This message edited by CM70 at 9:49 AM, March 18th (Thursday)]

CM70,

Based on your description of your wife's family history and recent anxiety/depression, I would recommend she begin seeing a psychiatrist to help address this problem. Perhaps the IC has someone he/she works with that they can recommend. That way, they can consult on how to address your wifes issues jointly.

You mentioned that you recently told your wife "...you need to show me something that you want to be in this and I have to believe you..." Has she NOT been pro-active in showing remorse OR is it simply repeated apologies? Has she taken any action? Do you think she's over (or getting over) the AP or just hiding it better?

I have pressed her for open communication, as she calls her Sister & Mother for hour long calls and then comes to me and says do we have to talk tonight?

Maybe it's time of VAR again. If these phone calls are happening at home, it will be easier.

Agree about the VARs. Wasn’t it the toxic girlfriend that tracked down the GPS? Now that she’s out of the picture and given your wife’s current mental state, I doubt she’ll be looking for or thinking about VARs.

The VAR, forcing more IC and seeing a psychologist are all things that CM70s wife should be doing on her own and working towards. He cannot do this all on his own.

I agree the VAR would provide additional insight, but it all reeks of CM70 doing all the work and monitoring in R. It should be his WW doing the heavy lifting. WHat do we all say on here. She broke the vow, now its on her to show CM70 that she really wants to save the marriage.

No doubt that his WW may be hitting her rock bottom, and only from there can she truly rebuild. BUt its on her to rebuild, not CM. CM needs to continue to work on himself and his relationship with his kids, while giving her a chance to show him that she is working on R.

CM70, my exWW had a family history of drug abuse as well, in addition to alcohol addiction. Her mom was bipolar and her parents did end up divorced. But you know what, some of those things you cannot fix. We may not have been wiser when we chose to marry these women. We were younger and not knowledgeable about this type of stuff. We chose love, and that was all that mattered.

You and I are both wiser now. You have a new chance now to choose again. I know for a fact that the newer, wiser me, who has been deal the hand of infidelity is looking a hell of a lot closer at all of this stuff when choosing a new mate. I would not have married my ex knowing what I know now. Just because you have kids and a history with this women doesn't mean you should still be with her now that she has given you a chance to walk. My screen name is HalfTime, bc I really looked at this as a chance at a new beginning. Caught my exWW cheating on me 4 yrs ago this month. I just posted about it in JFO last week. KNowing what you know now, would you marry her again?

Right now, you keep telling her to show you, make it up to you and as others have suggested to monitor her. That's all on you. She is the one who needs to do the work, not you. Knowing what you know now, you still want to put in this work? She has given you a reason to start over again, with a fresh start, liking coming out of the tunnel at halftime. Score is tied.

Knowing what you know now, she carries a ton of baggage. Start you new life, and she can come along if she ever does the work on her own. Once you start moving along, you'll see by her actions if she is worthy of being by your side. Don't ask her, don't tell her, don't even bother monitoring her anymore. Just keep moving yourself ahead.

For the life of me, I don’t see what having anxiety about public performance or being a perfectionist and a worrier has to do with her private sessions with the OM. She sure seemed to get past her introversion to drop her panties.

Isn’t the real issue is that she still has feelings for OM and can’t get past it? Hence the depression? What am I missing here?

CM70, are you doing well? It's been a while.

Ask yourself this-

At the end of the day, does it really matter that she has a trauma history and a ton of baggage? I mean...she is still an adult and still responsible for her actions. She isn't stupid and wasn't a hostage.

It is entirely possible that she is simply unsafe at any speed and can't be a good partner to a person expecting monogamy, for whatever reason she wishes to pick.

The hard fact is that there are people that are simply unsafe partners and no amount of IC or wishing is going to change that. They can fake it for a bit...but it will show.

Your WW looks unsafe at any speed. The reason why is largely irrelevant as it changes nothing.

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here CM70.

Both you and your wife are trying to fight human nature.

She is battling her limbic system and its tendency to ring her bell with love hormones seemingly in an involuntary fashion.

She feels broken and fragmented because she cant undo her choices or their consequence on her lymbic system.

So against her best interests (she realizes) she has lost attraction for you, and still desires the AP. At least on some level.

There is no switch she can flip, and the lymbic system doesn't speak english.

It speaks hormones, and images.

Telling her mind she needs to changes, (be it you, her therapist, or herself) seems ineffective.

This adds more stress to her, and makes reprogramming herself feel impossible.

She is at a breaking point because she cannot compartmentalize the dichotomy between what she wants, and what she desires/imagines/feels drawn to.

The IC needs to give her the tools to work through this. I would say in a somewhat detached and objective manner.

Property labeling each aspect, and putting everything in the right category, time and time again. As long as it takes.

She needs to do this in a safe, secure, and accepting atmosphere. One that allows for personal growth, and self-evaluation.

Lots of alpha brain waves, as it were.

Something like this is what I am driving at;

5 pillars of the DNRS program

Recognizing limbic impairment

Interrupting patterns of limbic impairments (POPs).

Guided visualization

Incremental brain retraining

Elevating emotions during retaining

You are facing your own lymbic challenges.

Your fight or flight alarm bells have been pumping you full of adrénaline and cortisol. These,and this is not intended to be a long term state.

You are in danger of burning out. You may abandon any attempt at reconciliation for this reason alone.

Also our love and respect tend to rise and fall together.

To say your respect for her has taken a hit would be an understatement, but everyday as this scenario cycles mercilessly through your brain, your respect for her drops a little each time, and your love will follow it down.

You need to put this in a holding pattern, and approach this intelligently, and not just become the victim (like her) of processes you are unaware of.

I have seen wayward wives with a small measure of remorse and a large measure of regret sort it out to a full on remorse that was a concern to the betrayed partner because the depth of the waywards pain seemed to become comparable to their own, and the wayward partner was almost inconsolable.

From what I have seen in most situations where reconciliation is moving in the right direction the remorse is clarified, purified, and intensified during reconciliation.

At present your wife doesn't even know how to be remorseful. She needs guidance.

You honestly may be expecting too much too fast.

I think, and this is just my opinion, that you are trying to move to an outcome to quickly. (This is not to say that you should not have her served when the time seems right to you. This is kind of a given to me.)

In a sense this is out of her hands. All she can do is perform the work of renewal and let that enable her to recover.

To put it in terms of addiction. She made the choice to use the drug, the drug took her choice away. She has to do the work of rehab to reclaim her choice, to reclaim her humanity which she surrendered to these choices.

Also there is NOTHING wrong with self-interest. That is the very foundation of relationships. She has an interest in her relationship with you, her future, etc.

Altruism can be the enemy of the truth.

Now I will hasten to add that she needs to put your interests ahead of hers because of her betrayal, and unfaithfulness. She needs guidance here. Some good books, and IC, but she doesn't need to apologise or be ashamed of her self-interest.

So to circle back, being compared unfavorably to the AP is gut wrenching.

She can get to the place where she genuinely disowns this. He offered her those new relationship feelings. She will feel stupid and used one day.

You will never feel the same about her. Before you had an idealistic love, and gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Now there is no doubt.

But also now you know she can be vulnerable, and weak,and broken.

She came crashing down off her pedestal and is a broken fully human woman now.

It's not really fair to put someone on a pedestal. It makes it easier to overlook their genuine needs or to minimize their significance. In other words it makes it easier to take them for granted in a disconnected and more impersonal way.

From the outside I'm 50/50 on reconciliation. It all depends on you.

Some people are just not wired to reconcile. It has nothing to do with good or bad, weak or strong, right or wrong.

If I knew you personally I would tell you that I would respect and support whatever decision you would make, but I think you are trying to make up your mind to quickly

, and there are some things that need to be in place in order to make an informed and intelligent decision.

I think we have roughly the same amount of life experience. So take it for what it is worth.

I really do wish you well!

[This message edited by Decorum at 4:28 AM, March 28th (Sunday)]

Are you doing well CM70? It's been a while since you updated.

Hey everyone, thanks Banjo, Decorum, Half Time & Walking Home for your recent posts. Decorum I think you touched on many of the points of where my WW is still lost and is going through a mid-life crisis/nervous breakdown whatever you want to call it. She had been going to counseling, and recently took a break. She is going to a new counselor this week as she felt her other counselor wasn't working out. This new counselor was recommended by a mutual friend that had marital issues & seems to be happy in her marriage now.

At this point her & I have had the same discussions at nauseum of where we go from here. I will say we have talked a lot and have really tried to re-connect. I have created new banking accounts, and have been finishing up my final basement remodel items. I am also having the house painted this month. This is to get the house ready to sell if I have had enough. She does not know any of these things, but I have tried to give this enough time to make the right decision for myself. As Decorum stated "You are in danger of burning out. You may abandon any attempt at reconciliation for this reason alone." Yep that's where I am at burned out & tired. To end on a positive note I am now down 20 lbs, and continue my workouts!

[This message edited by CM70 at 9:56 AM, April 12th (Monday)]

Great job with the fitness and weight loss. It’s such a great investment in yourself.

Glad to hear you are focusing on yourself. And hopefully she continues to focus on what is broken in her.

I’d really like to get you out of this limbo but I know you have to go at your own pace. I still don’t trust that she doesn’t think she loves him and she still pines for him.

At some point I’d love to see you put the VAR back in place to confirm what you think or unfortunately perhaps prove it wrong.

Wishing you continued improved good outlook.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:41 AM, April 12th (Monday)]

She is going to a new counselor this week as she felt her other counselor wasn't working out. This new counselor was recommended by a mutual friend that had marital issues & seems to be happy in her marriage now.

How are you feeling about this? As I recall her former counselor was holding her accountable.