SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Raleigh glad my words resonated with you.

That said, please know there are countless others here on SI who are way wiser than I could ever dream of....especially on the subject of infidelity.

Please do not hesitate to ask them for advice Raleigh. People like Bigger (and countless others) can help you navigate this nightmare and more importantly get you to the place you're seeking....a place of inner peace.

Let me also say how freaking PROUD I AM OF YOU!!!!

We all know how painful this (and has been for yrs). You're fighting through your fears and it takes a ton of COURAGE to do this!!

Keep pressing forward because your spirit demands and needs the truth.

Once you get your truth, then and only then, can you sort this out and ultimately determine where your journey is going to take you.

You'll get there Raleigh and I will be praying for not just you but for your wife.

With regards to getting in touch with the OMs BS, you can always start with LinkedIn or Facebook as well and search for her there. The thing is you often have just one chance to convince them you are not crazy when it is in writing.

You need to provide specific details to be very credible, be empathic and kind as you are blowing her world up potentially if she does not know. Apologize, as you now realize you should not have kept her in the dark 40 years ago. Finally offer your number to call you.

Then hope that she contacts you before she confronts him as he will surely paint your WW as some stupid office girl that had a crush on him and he rebuffed her advances.

RG, you are doing her a favor by asking for the poly. She has been living two lives for all these years, you are giving her an opportunity to “become whole” and be one person. I hope she takes it.

But expect to be hurt by what you find.

As long as you value the truth above all, whatever it is, you’ll be fine.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 6:20 AM, September 1st (Tuesday)]

RG,

You may want to create a facebook account which looks like your WW to see if the OM pings it.

I found the OM about 20+ years later by searching on his complete name and the stupid hobby he loves.

Use quotes in google to get more exact matches “Tom Cheater” plumber etc.

I was able to arrange an “accidental meeting” between OM and my WW with me as a witness.

A good source is also obituaries, for example OM mom or dad or uncles etc or his BWs relatives might list his name or her name and kids names.

Once you have a list of relatives, then each relatives name becomes searchable in facebook, linkedin, etc. More data is better data.

There may have been other witnesses to the affair you can try contacting them, is there anyone your WW confessed to?

RG,

Write down a list of questions in a notebook try to be exhaustive.

Forcing her to read the questions and think about the answers will help her access her memories and write down an answer she can be held accountable to on the polygraph.

List different types of sexual activities bondage, threesomes, anal, girl-girl etc.

Also ask where and when.

List different types of financial infidelity giving OM money, gifts, paying for lunch, keepsakes, etc.

List different types of emotional infidelities, promises of eternal love, thinking about OM years later, did she ever love you after the affair or did she settle for you.

Ask who knew, who supported the affair and who encouraged the affair.

Ask if there is a chance one of your children is not yours.

You have one major advantage and that is time.

I would strongly suggest you use that time and put the poly on hold for a minimum of 30 days.

Unlike many of us you aren’t dealing with an active affair, but something from the past. Doesn’t diminish your pain, the necessity of healing or the fact YOUR d-day is recent. But it does offer you the ability of dealing with this in a more calm, controlled manner than most of us can. Most of us are dealing with raging fires and have yet to deal with the debris and damage. It sounds like you can go directly to dealing with the damage.

I somehow get a sense that you are rushing to the poly as if the poly is the solution to all.

Well… What are you going to do if she fails? What if she confesses NOW to a dozen affairs? How much leeway are you willing to give her for the truth?

What would divorce mean? What does reconciliation mean?

What is your next step IF she fails? What is your next step if she passes?

I seriously suggest you look into all these aspects and have a clearer path laid out for after the truth and/or the polygraph. Time will allow you to vision that path and to put in place plans so you are more likely to stick to your path.

We had a poster here (still contributes on and off…) a couple of years ago. His wife insisted the affair was non-sexual, despite texts and e-mails describing sexual acts, finding sex-toys, lingerie and nights spent with OM in hotel-rooms. I tend to be reluctant to jump to assumptions, but I don’t think a single poster contributing to his thread doubted she and OM had sex.

He eventually had his WW take a poly and she failed miserably. The operator graded the answers as accurate beyond reasonable doubt. Despite that failure his wife still insists it was non-sexual and IMHO he is still trying to reconcile from something he doesn’t know or understand. He and his wife are trying to learn how to live with a great big smelly pink elephant in their house.

I am of the opinion that a marriage can survive anything. If both BS and WS want to reconcile and commit to it then a marriage can survive anything. Anything other than lies. The truth is the very base reconciliation is built on and any deviation from the truth is doomed to wreck reconciliation.

I have no doubt the poster could reconcile his marriage knowing that his wife and OM had sex. But I am equally certain that there will be no real reconciliation in that marriage while the BH THINKS his wife had sex with OM, but never has the certainty of KNOWING.

This is why I say a poly needs to be a watershed moment.

You have to believe the result and act accordingly. If she fails it needs to have negative impact on your ability to reconcile. At the same time – if she passes then she needs to be credited with some trust.

The poly can not be used as a bi-weekly test until she passes.

This is what I would suggest:

First of all make it very clear to her that the truth is the single most important factor.

It’s so important that whatever truth she shares NOW will be appreciated and will not be met with the anger it should deserve, but that while there is truth there is hope.

Make it clear that if she isn’t truthful it shows she doesn’t trust you, and without that trust there really isn’t a future for you two as a couple.

Let her know that if she passes a poly then you will do your best to work at reestablishing trust and work towards reconciling. Be clear it’s work, and that there are no guarantees but that if you believe she is telling the truth and therefore trusts you it will be willing to give your best effort to reconciliation.

Make it equally clear that failing would diminish both any wish and any hope you have of reconciling. Divorce would be tough, but realizing that after 40 years of marriage your wife doesn’t know you and trust you well enough with the truth would be worse.

Go look up divorce in your state. I’m fairly certain that with +40 years marriage its plain old 50/50. Frankly that’s just fair. Don’t fall into the “she’s taking everything” or the “men get screwed in D” trap. Be realistic about what D would look like. Remember it’s detachment so it’s not like she will move into the shed at the bottom of your garden and still cook your meals.

Visualize divorce. Imagine yourself 2-5-10 years from now without your wife.

Consult an attorney. What would the timeframe of D be?

If she fails: Do you move out? Is it instantaneous divorce? Is failure on one question of 5 enough? Does it matter what question it is? Maybe as an initial step: When she leaves for the poly ask her to pack a bag for and that if she fails she needs to be somewhere else for 3-5 days while you contemplate your next steps.

If she passes: What are your next steps? What are you two going to do? MC? IC?

Have all these things as clear as possible.

Have a plan in place. Have one you have thought through and believe is enforceable. It’s OK to change your plans according to what happens, but it would be immensely better for you to give yourself time to prepare and think things through.

Your WW has been carrying this secret in your marriage for 40 years. It’s in the open now, and waiting for a couple of weeks won’t make it any better or any worse, but it can definitely help YOU make the correct decisions.

RG, I'm sorry you are here but, as you've found out, it is a very good place to have found for this shitty club.

Before I wed in 1977 there were red flags that I deliberately ignored. I wanted to marry this young woman. I didn't know about actual adultery. We wed.

Through our marriage there were things that happened that caused me to question our relationship. They were things that seemed to be from her past that invaded our present. There was always some weak or inconsistent explanation. But they were from the past. "Willful Blindness" on my part. Having said that we had a pretty good marriage - lots of good times, great memories, wonderful children now successful at living in their own right.

Right after our celebrated 25th anniversary my XWW started a 4 year LTA. Much longer, actually, if you count all the years of lying about it. I was very suspicious the first year but never got proof. After that, if she was committing adultery and it wasn't the extreme stress at work, etc., it must have ended. It didn't. More "Willful Blindness" or love bias. Work place adultery is very hard to detect especially if there is travel involved.

There were several times that triggers happened but always denial, fishy explanations, gaslighting. Finally there was one that really got me and I focused on it. Seven years after the LTA physically ended and 11 years after it started I got the truth. Later, I also got the truth about before we wed. In all, it was much worse than I even expected.

I write this to show you that you are not alone. There are more similar stories around. There's a thread for those who found out years later in I Can Relate. I don't go there much but it's there.

One of the things having your WW write out a timeline is that it help stimulate her memory. One little memory will trigger another one, etc. I never got a timeline. I got a lot of "I don't know" (IDK) and "I can't remember" (ICR) and no attempt to try to remember. I think that's why she wouldn't do a timeline.

I highly recommend the polygraph. You will only get 3 or 4 questions. They have to be very specific and can only be answered with a "Yes" or "No". A good examiner will help draft them and make sure the intent is fully understood by the WS. An example of this would be if the WS thinks a blowjob isn't adultery what constitutes adultery to the BS is what's important.

I desperately wanted to be given reasons to try and attempt R. I never got any. I kept trying to show my WW what I needed (me doing the work for her). That lasted about 2 years and it took another 2 years for her to actually leave (separate). I think that she thought I would eventually just get over it and her life would go on. It took another 2 years to D.

I didn't start to heal until after we separated. Maybe your WW will see the light and step up to the plate. Maybe you will get what you need to rebuild an authentic life with her. What I wish for you is to find peace. Both R and D are hard and take time. I wish you find the path that is right for you.

Bigger: Thanks for your input & advice. It is information like this that makes me wish I found SI a lot sooner.

Let me take a couple of points you've made one-by-one..........

* You are correct regarding the advantage of time. But it cuts in both directions. She has had many occasions over the last 40 years to come clean. So, in my way of thinking, there is no reason to believe waiting any longer will change things - she's either going to spill the beans or she's not.

But the 40 years also gives me another big advantage that people who recently discovered an active affair don't have.......And that is the experience of living as a couple after the affair(s) are over. I will be the first to say that my WW is not a 100% bad person at all. There are many things about her that I sincerely appreciate and enjoy. We've certainly had a lot of good times over the years - even with unresolved issues hanging over us. We also have grown children and a couple of grandchildren. All of these are factors that can't be ignored or taken likely.

*******************************

I do not have any pre-conceived plans on what I will do. My intention is to make things work between us and go to the grave together. I have told her exactly what you've suggested already: Anything I find out now - no matter how hurtful - we can at least talk about and try to work through. No guarantees. BUT....on the day of the poly exam, there's no going back. She's been told repeatedly that anything new or deceptive that crops up during or after the exam is going to be almost impossible for me to overcome.

* The exam will take place two weeks from now; so it's not like I am totally rushing into it - especially given how long this issue has been weighing on us. And I am abundantly aware of the limitations of the exam and what it will/will not reveal. I don't look at the poly as some sort of a panacea for us, but it IS an important gate to walk through. If she is still being untruthful after all this time then there is no realistic chance I will even attempt to work through this. Doesn't matter what the deceit is about, its about me knowing with certainty that ALL cards are out on the table.

****************************

Well… What are you going to do if she fails? What if she confesses NOW to a dozen affairs? How much leeway are you willing to give her for the truth?

What is your next step IF she fails? What is your next step if she passes?

Great questions, Bigger! If she fails the exam, I am STILL going to give our relationship a fighting chance. Trying to be cautious here - I don't want to draw a line in the sand with and auto-response if its crossed. To much at stake to do that.

Having said that, there are limitations on what new revelations I can work through. And the poly isn't the only place revelations may come from. Late yesterday I tracked down the email address of the OMW. She has a message in her Inbox I hope to get a response from. As other SI members have pointed out, she may turn into a wealth of information. AND......there's always the "parking lot confessions". (I believe she's already had one of these immediately after agreeing to accept a poly exam.) My gut is screaming that there's more to come - possibly much more. And she's scared - really scared. She's told me she's afraid of the exam and "feels like she's being treated like a criminal". I'm biding my time and frankly waiting for the other shoe to drop. If/When it does, I will take any admissions from her, any information from the OMW and the results of the poly and simply take it from there.

Will I do through with a D? Absolutely yes if the damage is too great or I believe she is still deceiving me.

She's told me she's afraid of the exam and "feels like she's being treated like a criminal".

Is it the thought of being thrown in with those that are required to take a poly because they lie or manipulate the truth to avoid consequences? What part of the comparison troubles her?

Treated like a criminal?

Well... you should portray the poly as her chance of proving she's being truthful. The infidelity definitely shows that you have reason to question her honesty, and the poly allows her to reclaim some trust.

I absolutely HATE ultimatums.

Not because they can’t be effective, but rather because ultimatums tend to limit our options.

Plus there are few things weaker than having to tell your spouse something like “if you lie again I will divorce you AND NOW I REALLY MEAN IT!”

So, I would never suggest you give your wife an ultimatum like if you fail the poly I will divorce you.

Remember when I suggested that if she already thinks telling you more would automatically lead to divorce, and therefore trying to fake a poly might be a reasonable thought for her?

Well… The same applies if she knows that even if she fails the poly you won’t divorce.

There has to be a fear of God in her. She has to have a sense that the price of lying outweighs the cost of being truthful.

You already told her the marriage is on life-support.

OK – if your child or best friend was on life-support how would you feel? I venture that if the medical staff told you that he was fine, it was only a cold and the life-support was just for laughs you wouldn’t be too worried. If however the medical staff told you life-support was a critical sign and there was always a chance of this ending badly…

That is the sense or emotion you BOTH need to feel. A sense of urgency and seriousness.

Like I said: I hate ultimatums. Failing the poly does not mean you need to divorce her. But she should be clear that MOST OF ALL you want to reconcile. Let her know that you envision growing old with her. But at the same time that if she fails then it’s such a clear indication that she doesn’t trust you, that you don’t know the truth and it makes you seriously doubt if SHE wants to be with you. That in turn diminishes any hope or wish you might have of reconciliation.

SteadyChevy Thank-you for the input. I had to read your post three times to get my arms around it. The parallels between our experiences are downright startling.

Willful Blindness? Never heard that expression previously. But being completely honest, that is precisely what I did.

Like yourself, there have been many times over the years I sensed something wasn't right. And that includes before and after our wedding. Some of this was because I didn't want to admit I distrusted her. But some of it was because I didn't want to deal with the consequences of what I believed might be going on. Either way, I was a total ostrich each and every time something that didn't add up occurred.

Yet another parallel you and I share? Both of us appear to have elevated the timeline of the known affairs to near the top of our list of importance. It certainly is at the top for me.

My WW has a major case of IDK and ICR about the start, end and duration of the affair and it is seriously urinating me. (trying to keep my language at least a LITTLE professional!)

Can I offer you - and any other SI members - a little bit of homespun philosophy? Any of you are free to disagree with this. Here goes:

There are some events that people simply do not forget. Period.

An affair is one of those things. Plus, I have known my WW for 45 years and know what her memory is like. She is flat out lying - I am certain of it. As I have posted previously, I believe there are certain facts surrounding the A that she OWES me. The timeline is one of them. There are only one or two reasons I can think of that'd make her want to hide it - and both are going to result in a LOT of pain.

And finally, the last common denominator we share: I am doing all the work and have been ever since the discovery of the A. Part of that is on ME....because I've always let her 'wait me out". She has learned from previous flare ups that if she gives it some time and promises to "get better about things", the problem will go away and I'll stop pursuing the matter - at least until the next trigger. Several folks here have pointed this out. I've known it at some level right along.

Thank-you once again for your post. You and I have traveled the same road, Compadre.........

* The exam will take place two weeks from now; so it's not like I am totally rushing into it - especially given how long this issue has been weighing on us.

I will tell you what we learned and experienced with a poly, because some of the things you are suggesting may not be realistic. We initially met with someone who also does assessments for people who have been mandated by the courts for sexual rehabilitation. This was partly because we were trying to determine if H was a sex addict or not (he was not). But this guy got H's history through an extensive questionnaire. He then began to help us come up with questions for the polygraph exam. He was VERY particular about which two or three people we interviewed to conduct the exam. H and I did a phone consultation with each one to determine who we liked. Once we did this, it took another three weeks to get an appt. with the examiner to do the exam. He was highly sought after for lots of court cases. In the meantime, we worked with the initial guy and our MC to determine what was most important for me to know, and how to word that correctly. You can only ask questions that have a yes or no answer (despite what you see on TV). If they are not yes or no answers, there's more room for the testee to lie. Yes or no is more precise.

We ran our final questions past the first guy who did the assessment, and tweaked them a bit more based on the history H gave him in the first meeting. You may not like to hear this, but the reliability of the test goes down the more questions you ask. Everything I've read says that 4-5 questions max, is the most reliable. Anything more than that, then the reliability drops. So you have to prioritize what questions you want answered. It doesn't mean you can't combine issues or ideas that are similar into one question; that's where having someone help you draft the questions helps.

Then H had his test with the examiner, who met with him for a bit before the test. Then we had a follow up appt. with him for the results. I was not allowed in the room during the test.

Those were our experiences, and based on my research and the experiences of our MC in working with polygraphs, this seems to be the ideal way to go. If you have any more questions about our process, please let me know.

There are some events that people simply do not forget. Period.

People may not forget these events, but the accuracy of the details is going to fail over the years, especially how many years that have passed since her A.

I have been told by two MCs and two ICs that I have outstanding memory for details and recall. Now, three years out from first DDay, my memory is not as good as it was in the beginning. Trauma does that to memory. Some details will be etched forever, but others will not be. I was raped when I was 21 years old (almost 40 years ago) and got pregnant. I still remember the event, but not as many details as I did soon after it happened. It's the nature of trauma and how our memory works. And again, you may not like to hear this, but what she went through was traumatic... YES - self-induced, but traumatic, too. If you think all she has is fond memories of her A, then you need to reconsider. It is actually the worst trauma my H has been through, and he grew up with raging alcoholic parents. Perhaps you can do some reading on trauma and memory.

number4: Thank you for both of your posts!

The problem I have with the memory issues? She said the same things when I discovered the affair and confronted her 40 years ago. She lied about the A continuing after our wedding day and didn't admit that she had lied until a few days ago. Can trauma also cause sudden recall of memory?

I'm not asking for dates and times.....just generalities:

1. When did the affair begin?

2. Did the affair continue after we were married?

3. Were you still seeing him when I discovered the affair?

4. Did you call him to warn him the affair had been discovered?

5. Did you continue to see him after the affair was discovered?

And how has she answered these? "I don't remember....but maybe I did. Probably I did. I just don't remember". This is almost verbatim what she says. Facial expressions and body language aren't helping her, either. What am I supposed to think when she adds "maybe" and "probably" to every answer she gives?

I simply can't believe that generalities like these can be forgotten. Right or wrong, I just don't believe it.

But lets just say she has actually forgotten high-level details about the time line over the last 40 years. You know what my thoughts are on that?

"Well, honey you sure blew an opportunity to tell me the truth many times when the memories were still fresh."

And now she has a only very short time to jog her memory. Or......it is quite likely she will pay a steep price for missing the chance.........

The problem I have with the memory issues? She said the same things when I discovered the affair and confronted her 40 years ago. She lied about the A continuing after our wedding day and didn't admit that she had lied until a few days ago.

I agree that back when it all came out, she likely used those same things to avoid talking about the details - didn't want to dig herself deeper, because it's counterintuitive to helping the spouse heal (most of them think by answering more questions, they're only going to hurt their spouse more, but it's actually the opposite). Still not an excuse, but it's their sick logic.

But if you are now asking for details from 40 years ago, some of them might not be as available as they were when she could have told you about them. Some people just have more capability of remembering details than others. You may be one of those (like me) who remembers stuff very, very clearly.

I know that my H does not, and it's not just around affair information. I can hear him recall a story, and get all kinds of details wrong. Thirty-four years ago, I was on a pregnancy bed rest with D2; my MIL came to help out, but once she was there (she traveled several states to come to where we lived), she would refuse to go outside to smoke and we lived in a tiny apartment (maybe 500 sq ft.). H had it out with her and sent her home the next day. When I brought this up a couple of years ago, he had no memory of kicking her out. I mean, he had to call the airlines, make a reservation for her, and take her to the airport. And he has no memory. Some people are just like that.

chances are your WW cannot remember enough to answer

your general level questions.

i share your frustration from 40 years ago as well.

have your WW try to write down a timeline. as she does this

it may help her to remember more.

you could call the OM, claiming to just found out. you want

to ask him his version to see if your WW is telling you the

truth. if he answers your questions honestly you will not tell

his BW. wait two weeks then tell his BW anyway.

consequences served late better then not being served at all.

Sorry. I just posted on your other thread. I am floored that after all this time you still don’t know the basic answers to the basic questions. What did you talk about when you first discovered if not these issues? What the hell could she have said to keep you in the M if you could not even get a simple answer as to when it began?

If there is a cautionary tale here, it is the perils of rug sweeping.

RG, I don't often come to the Reconciliation Forum. I didn't reconcile even though I desperately hoped to see if we could. It just so happened that the title of this thread was on the Reconciliation Forum link. It caught my eye. Reading your first post caused me pause. While definitely not identical the similarities to my own situation was striking to me. I felt a need to post on your thread. I wish you healing and, finally, peace in which ever path you eventually choose.

I do not have any pre-conceived plans on what I will do.

I hope you realize this is a mistake. A poly is a tool, like a screwdriver. "I'm going to buy a screwdriver."

"Why, do you have a screw you plan to tighten with that screwdriver?"

"No, I don't have any plan on what I will do with the screwdriver. But I'm going to buy one."

I have told her exactly what you've suggested already: Anything I find out now - no matter how hurtful - we can at least talk about and try to work through. No guarantees. BUT....on the day of the poly exam, there's no going back. She's been told repeatedly that anything new or deceptive that crops up during or after the exam is going to be almost impossible for me to overcome.

Do you see the paradox in your equation? You've said your intent is to go to the grave with her. So what does "impossible for me to overcome" look like in that scenario? The two of you sleeping in separate bedrooms and cohabiting as mere roommates?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:05 AM, September 4th (Friday)]

There are some events that people simply do not forget. Period.

Raleigh, I could not agree with your more!!

We went through some bad times. Twice I confided in the opposite sex, I could also have overstepped boundaries and gone that way.

I did not, but I can never forget those meetings. I cringe to think about them. How can you not forget?

And yet with all the IDK's and ICR's I am supposed to believe she can't remember simple important events that 'rocked' her world.

After 35 years I found out SOME of the truth. Affairs from before and after our marriage date.

It stinks, for sure.

Polygraph. Yes. I wish I had done that. Maybe getting ALL the truth would have helped somewhat.

But for my own sanity, I drew a line in the sand.

The things I was told together with what I had deduced and knowing how all that made me feel, was bad enough. Whatever there was that I didn't yet know, I just felt that I simply did not want to know.

I made a decision that if she was not going to tell me, I wasn't going to force it out of her.

I too am fast approaching retirement. Just had our 39th anniversary. I still have issues re the A's.

But I would prefer my 'last' years to be stress free, happy and productive.

That is why I drew the line in the sand.

Good luck with the poly.